Boundaries have to do solely with what you are and are not willing to accept and what actions you will take if your boundaries are violated.
Time clearly matters TO YOU. So, you need a boundary regarding how long you are going to wait to see progress, to act, to leave the M, etc... It need not be precise, but it needs to be clear enough that you quit feeling like a victim and own your role in accepting a sexless M.
You don't seem to know for yourself what is OK with you right now and that is a big problem.
This NEEDS to be done, and OT, if you are looking for a boundary from me, here it is. I NEED W to tell open up to me as NM suggests, and I to her. If we can't do that, then i need to pull back and cease all my "actions" because until I know W is ready to participate, I am not going to do everything on my own for many more weeks/months.
Thanks for a :-) today OT. I was beginning to think I would never get one...not that I NEED that from you, lol.
Anyway, yes, time IS important to me but damnit, impatience has been a HUGE issue with me in the past on several different fronts so I think maybe exercising a little MORE patience is going to make me a better man than allowing my impatience and frustration to have me set boundaries I don't really need right now.
I am 100% set on that conversation needing to happen, and sooner than later so in terms of what I want, that's it right now. In the long term, I want a relationship with my W where BOTH of us feel wanted and loved. I want a vibrant, passionate sex life that stems from BOTH of our desire for it, not just mine. I want her to instigate physical touch and on a regular basis (this will be a tough one because she claims to have always been a non-instigator) and I want to kiss my W more than once a month, maybe even TWICE a month, lol.
I want a lot and before all this, I didn't realize that. Hell, I didn't think I deserved it. Sometimes, I still stuggle with that.
I am just frustrated right now and venting. I CAN see light at the end of the tunnel and that's why I reacted the way I did...well part of the reason. I think things WILL work out but that it may just take a little more time.
Somewhere it says to allow a month for every year of marriage in terms of reconciliation time. If that time starts when the actual "reconciliation" startes, then we are on month 2 of 10...maybe I need to wait a LITTLE more.
Once again, waiting or not, I want to talk to her as NM suggested, and VERY soon.
((((((GH)))))) Ohhhh, GH. Thanks for stopping on my thread recently, your kind words really helped me.
You've been so strong, so thoughtful, so analytical. Always putting so much effort into thinking your sitch a 1000 different ways and then taking action on your findings. You're being a wonderful H.
It's tough when you've done light years of work and your W seems to have done nothing. I wouldn't place too much on that though, I bet she's listenting and watching all along and doing a lot of thinking as well.
I have to pipe in say something. Your W is in a weird and painful moment now. Ending the A, seeing it for what i was, that she projecting much onto it that it never really was. Seeing you change to the man she wanted all these years, slowly feeling the love for you again. Coming out of a fog and seeing all that you have damaged and all that you loved and let go. This is what my H told me he was going through. It's laced with LOTS of guilt and anger. At themselves and us. The main line H said: Why did this have to happen? Why did it all go so, so wrong?
Understand this. Understand that it's a phase that you cannot keep expecting all of your actions to make a difference and them to warm up like nothing happened. They are climbing out of denial and into ashes. It's hard to act like nothing happened and move forward. They want to, but it will take a little more time. Until then, you show your love and changed you consistently. Be strong for her now, as you have been this whole time. You feel that now that the A is over, then it's time to restart, right? Well, this is a phase that comes before that. I tried to do the same thing with H...pushed him the very day he admitted everything.
The bottom line is that your actions will make a BIG difference ONLY when THEY are ready to receive it. You can't throw yourself into the M and work on it unless you feel good about you, are happy with you, love you....and they don't feel that yet. They are so confused and pained that they let this happen. So mad that we didn't changed before they went into this fog ('why couldn't you have listened before??'). You are ready because for 7 months you've been going through this catharsis....getting stronger, confident, changing, loving yourself and the new you, forgiving yourself for the past. It's just Day 0 for her.
Remember, no expectations. Like OT said, if it would help you be empowered and in control again, set a deadline for yourself. I went to see a lawyer and it helped me. I felt I took a step for me. But, stop expecting things, and your actions to lead to some change right now in W. Just be you, b/c it's who you will be no matter what, right? Keep plugging along.
Today is a rough day. Take some time out and maybe go on a walk or something alone before going home. Or go out tonight. take a breather for YOU.
Ok, now that I've calmed down a bit, I thought I would try a little exercise. Here are a list of my "more of the same" and "180"'s
More of the same (if I did this, it would be more of what I "used to do" that caused a lot of our problems according to me, my C and some of what W's told me):
-Touching only to get sex -Being gone all the time -Staying up stairs even when I'm home -Being angry with the kids -Being passive/agressive -Generally being down about life -Not caring about my personal appearence -Being "messy" -Calling her all the time -Getting angry at her for being upset -Not validating her -Being defensive all the time
Ok, here are some 180's I've done...
-I touch her more now, i.e. walking by I will just run my fingers through her hair and compliment how good it feels, etc. -I have done a LOT to make sure I have time for the kids AND her. I have changed my schedule to make sure that I am consistant in when I work, having certain nights that I am always home. -When I am home, I try to be "around" downstairs more. This has led to a LOT of nice conversations lately. I guess W likes that. I never would have thought. I thought she LIKED me being upstairs. Wonder what else I THINK I know...(OT) -I try as best I can to be happy and have fun with the kids. Also I try to discipline without anger much more than before. It seems to be working VERY well with the boys and W too! -(this is the biggy) I am trying to be more direct and open with W. This has been my biggest issue and passive/agressive behavior is something that my W HATES so... -I am happy now. I am happy with me and my life. I LOVE what I do and now it shows. No longer do I pretend to be miserable just to spare my W what I THOUGHT would be jealousy at my joy. I accept that she wants me to be happy, and even if she doesn't, I DO! -I look GOOD these days (story on that later). I care how I look. I do my hair EVERY day. I dress well EVERY day and I am into buying clothes for myself now. W can't believe it! -I don't call her nearly as much, and when I do, if she doesn't answer, I leave a message and don't call back unless it's REALLY important. -This is another biggy. I don't get upset when she's upset. I have learned to detach for the most part and just listen to her. Also, as an extention of this, I have learned NOT to try to DO everything for her. I used to get upset when she did housework, asking to share the load. I don't do that anymore. If there is something to do, I just do it but if she is doing something, I appreciate it and move on.
In general, I have tried to be much less defensive and I think I have done ok with this. I have a LOT of work to do still. I guess I just wanted to post this as a sort of checklist of where I was and where I am now. I think I am doing ok, but as the earlier day's posting proves, there is ALWAYS more work to be done.
Wow always, now I feel even worse for that general dribble that I posted to you (not that it wasn't heartfelt mind you).
Quote:
You've been so strong, so thoughtful, so analytical. Always putting so much effort into thinking your sitch a 1000 different ways and then taking action on your findings. You're being a wonderful H.
Thank you. I hope that's what I am doing.
Quote: I have to pipe in say something. Your W is in a weird and painful moment now. Ending the A, seeing it for what i was, that she projecting much onto it that it never really was. Seeing you change to the man she wanted all these years, slowly feeling the love for you again. Coming out of a fog and seeing all that you have damaged and all that you loved and let go. This is what my H told me he was going through. It's laced with LOTS of guilt and anger. At themselves and us. The main line H said: Why did this have to happen? Why did it all go so, so wrong?
I think this too. It's what makes me want to just wait more, because I know she is hurting and that I am not the one who will make that go away, only she can do that...she and time.
Quote: Understand this. Understand that it's a phase that you cannot keep expecting all of your actions to make a difference and them to warm up like nothing happened. They are climbing out of denial and into ashes. It's hard to act like nothing happened and move forward. They want to, but it will take a little more time. Until then, you show your love and changed you consistently. Be strong for her now, as you have been this whole time. You feel that now that the A is over, then it's time to restart, right? Well, this is a phase that comes before that.
I LOVE the "climbing out of denial into ashes" analogy. Again, I really do feel like this is the case and that the true "restarting" has not begun yet. I think I realize that MOST of the time, and then there's today...
Quote: The bottom line is that your actions will make a BIG difference ONLY when THEY are ready to receive it. You can't throw yourself into the M and work on it unless you feel good about you, are happy with you, love you....and they don't feel that yet. They are so confused and pained that they let this happen. So mad that we didn't changed before they went into this fog ('why couldn't you have listened before??'). You are ready because for 7 months you've been going through this catharsis....getting stronger, confident, changing, loving yourself and the new you, forgiving yourself for the past. It's just Day 0 for her.
Ok, and this still suggests, as I believe, that the time is just not here yet. I KNOW my actions will not have the desired effect until she is ready, and if that's true, then she's just not ready but I feel like from the posts earlier from OT and NM that somehow it's up to ME to "make" her ready. I don't agree with that. Sure, it's up to me to be ready for HER, and communicate my "new" self to her, which I am, but it's up to her to take that last step TOWARDS me and finish the journey.
Quote: emember, no expectations. Like OT said, if it would help you be empowered and in control again, set a deadline for yourself.
I don't really feel out of control. I think I was just overwhelmed this morning and was not really prepared to hear what I heard. I think I am ok now. I know I am still in control of me and I also think I was wanting to be in control of my W, something I understood LONG ago that I didn't have...or want again.
Quote: Today is a rough day. Take some time out and maybe go on a walk or something alone before going home. Or go out tonight. take a breather for YOU.
I may do this but I have to pick up the kids from school as W has her first DUI class today (8 hours). Bad timing for me needing a "break" but I will probably have a good time with the boys and take my mind off all this.
Thank you again for the GREAT post. You, NM and OT have really helped me yet again. Thank you all.
GOOD JOB! See how much you've done, and it's all so natural now for you, b/c you seem happy about the changes yourself.
Now, as far as 'results' in the M. You know that it's not as easy as that. There was her emotional divorce, her A, her 'coming back' and sort of metamorphosis on both of your parts. Yours good, hers bad. And then, she now has to wake up to the fact that it was NOT just you in the M, there are things she needs to change too, BESIDES the whole mess of the A. Lots of stuff.
The way I see it in my sitch is that for the last 7-8 months, I have been doing nothing but 100% effort in the positive direction, building, repairing, changing. H has done nothing but 100% effort in the negative direction....A, abandoning me, destructive behaviors. We've both been active, in very opposite ways. Now, he's stopped the negative stuff, and has yet to move in a positive direction. He's just still now. That's where your W is at as well. Not moving in either direction. I guess it's a good sign that thigns are not going south with her anymore. Now, to Phase 2.....
You keep up what you're doing. I firmly believe that your CONSISTENCY and DILIGENCE and CARE are what pulled her out of the negative spiral in the first place, which is HUGE. Now, she's turning back to you b/c she REALLY TRUSTS you....you don't believe it, but she does. My C said that though H abandoned, his not getting a D and seeing changes and believing them took a LOT of faith and trust. Value that by keeping up the consistent effort.
i think a talk about sex is not a good thing, that would put more presure on her than the normal r talk. i think you should just be more aggresive when it comes to sex. just keep pushing the issue without talking about it. persue her in a sexual way. if she turns you down then keep trying, turn up the heat. you say you have done little things, do bigger things, yea you might get rejected, but you have to keep trying, every chance you get. it will work, i promise you that. but i would NOT talk about it, she wants it to be natural and so do you. you need some for of touching to get it going, and im telling you, get some massage oils. she is stressed with the dui thing right, show her you care buy getting massage oils and tell her you want to relive her stress. i mean give her a hour massage, not just 5 minutes. you have tried things, but have you tried this one, if not then do it, you might be suprised. she DOES want you to pursue her, she is just scared, so if she says no keep trying, dont piss her off, but keep trying, in less then a week she will be in you arms i promise.
Shipd, I give her a massage EVERY night, most of the time at her request, sometimes with lotion/oil, sometimes not. That's how sex USED to start with us and she HATED it. She hated that I would always just "go a little too far" with my massage and we'ed "end up" having sex. So I am a little reluctant to go that route.
I think she DOES want it to be natural but since it has been SO forced in the past, I think some open, honest discussion is needed here so that we are both understanding what the other wants, and what the barriers are to getting it.
I have been using the "ramping up the heat" method for some time now and it has gone nowhere. I really can't tell you the number of different things I have done. I have been creative, let me tell you that. I have been creative in what I say to her and how/when I touch her. She just seems blocked off to it all, and I want to know why because it is starting to feel bad for me to even try anymore.
I DO have more left in me but these days where I wake up frustrated cannot continue for much longer. Something has to give, and if I have not said it today, I will say it now, that something is NOT necessarily sex, it just needs to be either open, honest communication or SOME kind of spark from my W in response to any of the dozens of things I do on a daily basis to "let her know" how I feel.
when she says no, do you stop right away, or do you take that as a no, give me more before shesays yes. be a saleman on this. when you go to the store and want to buy a stove, do you tell the salesman no first hoping he will give you more before you say yes. she is doing the same thing. give her a reason to say yes, keep probing (without pissing her off) to get her to say yes. try it, it just might work out. i did for me, it was hard, my w does not live with me, but she would reject my advances but i keep trying. communicate, say things you know she likes, tell her you need to release some testostone. tell her its just for fun, nothing other then that, that you dont expect it all the time, im telling you, you dont want a sexless marriage and neither does she. you have to be the man and continue to persue her in regards to sexual intimacy. i promise you she is scard to have sex with you, but you have to get the fear out of her head. pursue, pursue,and pursue some more.if she says no, she wants you to tell her why to say yes. no remember if she really starts to get pissy, then back off, but be fun about it. mark her laugh, joke about it, but dont make it a discusion. dont back her into a corner to talk about it. make sure you still leave her an out.
