LFL wrote: Women certainly do NOT want the sensitive guy to "disappear" as you stated, just show more Alpha traits, mainly confidence and assertiveness. I understand that you are in a vicious circle with your F, the less she wants sex, the less confident you become. But that is just making things worse. Lou wrote: LFL I suspect some LDW might have a different take on this, and this makes it more difficult for some H's to be more alpha.
Are you saying that LDW's don't want a confident/assertive man? I think All women can appreciate those traits and it would only help in the sex dept.
My question is, what beliefs that you have, would you think many LDW would say are valid if there was honest talk among a group of women. I think some women buy in to the I don't like sex that much from their peers.
I have a few friends who say they would be happy with a cuddle instead of full blown sex. But when we talk about sex with Alpha's, they are just as TURNED ON as HDW. They say things like, "I bet he would be great in bed." So I know they think HD, they just don't always ACT HD in their M. I think a completely ND female is probably pretty rare. Just like a ND male. But again, I think women will M the man they LOVE and not always the man they want to F*ck. Maybe men do that too. (The whole madonna/whore thing again).
Once they have a SL, then they say sex is a chore or they could do with less sex. Answer that question for maybetime’s benefit, not mine.
I wish I could answer it. Sometimes it's all the other R problems that hurt the SL. Sometimes it's those preconceived notions of what women DO after they get M, just have less sex. Especially if they hang around other women who support that viewpoint. Could be any number of issues though. It still makes me shake my head when I see women acting like a good SL with their H is of little importance. Actually, I'll amend that and say either S not thinking a good SL is important. Men are just as guilty as women at times.
LFL But when we talk about sex with Alpha's, they are just as TURNED ON as HDW. They say things like, "I bet he would be great in bed." So I know they think HD, they just don't always ACT HD in their M. I believe you LFL. I don't know how to determine a "I rather cuddle" actual words with those hidden thoughts of some LDW have at a fleeting time.
Maybe it is not related, but when BB watches The Lifetime Channel on TV her comments about men in general follow the lines "Men are controlling/pigs/selfish. My take on the channel is they portray a lot of people ( mostly men but some women) acting out mentally unstable behaviors. It doesn't help our R, but maybe she comments on lots of things I should ignore.
Are you saying that LDW's don't want a confident/assertive man? I know LDW (BB) wants a confident H. It is one thing I have observed first hand. Even was an issue at church one time.
I also see alpha/confidence has to be in BB's preferred form to be appreciated. If it is a different roast (think coffee) it becomes a issue to prove most men are domineering/controlling. Of course, BB is picky.
I think women will M the man they LOVE and not always the man they want to F*ck Security vs lust. Yes I saw some TV program stating X% of kids were not fathered by the H.
Especially if they hang around other women who support that viewpoint I have had that problem when BB worked with one woman. This woman said her H was, stubborn, not alpha, and one would think her H was not like-able. To see them in public, she was always hanging on to him. Problem was BB took her seriously (the talk part) and our R deteriorated sometimes.
It took about a year of BB seeing this couple together in public before BB told me she thought her work friend was wrong for complaining about her H. Then our R improved a little.
It still makes me shake my head when I see women acting like a good SL with their H is of little importance I read another forum where most of the posters were left behind W's. Most said their SL's were good or their H did not care much for sex. I asked a few questions regarding turn-downs or how they opted out of sex sometimes. Almost all said they did it with respect and their H was OK with the turn-downs.
Several said the H left because the OW was younger, not that the SL was problematic. Some said they were too tired and the H should respect their lack of interest, it's their body to do as they choose.
I suggested the OW being younger might be the reason the H left, but to consider the cumulative effects of getting turned down, especially if the H was easy-going and not demanding.
Men are just as guilty as women at times.
I am Guilty LFL. A long time ago I was too busy with trying to earn money to pay for everything when BB was a SAHM. She was showing PO'ed signals but wanted sex. She told me 20+ years later. Yes, I missed read many mixed messages. I still do because the messages are so complicated.
Sometimes I am confident and somewhat alpha even when BB talks like she does not want me to take charge. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Please read some about alpha psychology and like LFL said, it does not have to resemble anything like being a jerk.
One thing similar, is what I relate to is "Calm, Assertive" behavior.
Oprah is a good example of "calm, assertive" Bill O Riley from Fox News is an example of aggressive assertive at times.
I think if a male displays a calm, assertive alpha type demeanor, I think that is a good combination to help anyone as a starting place to making changes away from being doormat like or the overly sensitive type.
when BB watches The Lifetime Channel on TV her comments about men in general follow the lines "Men are controlling/pigs/selfish. My take on the channel is they portray a lot of people ( mostly men but some women) acting out mentally unstable behaviors. It doesn't help our R, but maybe she comments on lots of things I should ignore.
Lol. Well, I find it interesting that she watches the Lifetime channel. They have a lot of "romance" movies on there, but yes, also lots of men and women acting out dysfunctional behaviors. Maybe it reinforces some of her belief system and she really likes that. I know you said you should ignore it, but if it was me I'd probably ask about it. Confront her on her statement. "If men are selfish controlling pigs, why do you want to keep watching shows that reinforce that belief? Does it make you feel better or worse?" Or you could turn it around on you, and say "I feel like you look at me in a bad light after watching shows like that. It makes me feel like I'm disappointing you in some way. What do you think?" Something like that anyways. Or you could just say "oh." I suggested the OW being younger might be the reason the H left, but to consider the cumulative effects of getting turned down, especially if the H was easy-going and not demanding.
Lol, they must have loved you in that board. Messing with their self-protecting perceptions. I am Guilty LFL. A long time ago I was too busy with trying to earn money to pay for everything when BB was a SAHM. She was showing PO'ed signals but wanted sex. She told me 20+ years later. Yes, I missed read many mixed messages. I still do because the messages are so complicated.
This is gold Lou. Good for the young guys on this board to realize too. Your W, 20 years later, still remembering how you did not ASSERT yourself when she gave you mixed signals. SHE WAS SHOWING PO'D SIGNALS BUT STILL WANTED SEX. See, that was right out of your W's mouth. She did want sex but wasn't able to show it outwardly and it came out all wrong, pissy, avoidant, whatever. Lots of women probably do this. I do. And just like your W, I WANT my H to be assertive enough to read thru the BS and take charge a little. Not retreat, not avoid, not sulk. etc Too many men on here do that and it makes the situation so much worse. Sure the women should not be giving such mixed signals, but that's reality. WE DO! Need to work with watcha gots.
LFL Lifetime channel. They have a lot of "romance" movies.....Maybe it reinforces some of her belief system and she really likes that. They might. If she watches romance movies it is on one of the Encore or Stars Networks. Watching Lifetime, BB picks up om the somebody is wacko movies. Must be connected her previous mental health (15 years) employment she retired from 2 years ago.
I'd probably ask about it. Confront her on her statement. "If men are selfish controlling pigs, why do you want to keep watching shows that reinforce that belief? I did ask and got two answers generally. . man are controlling pigs. or 2, "what difference does it make to you what I watch, Don't I have the right to view what I like?" " I don't tell you what you should like or what you should watch." IE she does what she wants to do and I should allow her to choose anything she likes.
Does it make you feel better or worse?" I ask. No real answers, mostly deflections. Guess I need to just say OH.
"I feel like you look at me in a bad light after watching shows like that. It makes me feel like I'm disappointing you in some way. I did this several times. The answer was I am different. A good guy at heart but so frustrating to live with. I also asked if she could name any man we know as an example of a bad H. She couldn't at the time but said lots of men are bad Husbands.
At this time I droop the subject of generalising and ask for to let me know specific individuals and specific traits for an example of what she views as bad H traits.
they must have loved you in that board. Messing with their self-protecting perceptions. I would say 75% of the LBS/women did not acknowledge my points and were sticking to the line if sex was poor or bad it was not the lack of sex or it's poor quality, it was because the walk away spouse (the men in most cases) was unhappy with him self.
Yes my idea that sex was important in a M was shot down and something like he had problems that had nothing to do with many of the 5LL concepts.
On another forum I posted sex was important and got replies from men that a woman's body was hers to do with as she saw fit, it must be my fault my W does not like sex, or I should understand her because of some hormonal, aging or general women's issues. They advised I play golf and forget about sex.
Then I read the breast cancer forum. Some pluses for sex and many negatives concerning sex. And finally the menopausal forum. 80% said they could do without sex but still wanted the attention they used to get when they were sexually active, IE no strings attention.
So, yes I was not Mr charming, I did not get many "I want a guy like you" very often. I did get some replies that stated women empathized with me and some asked if I had any advice how to get their H interested in sex again.
This is gold Lou. Good for the young guys on this board to realize too. Your W, 20 years later, still remembering how you did not ASSERT yourself when she gave you mixed signals. Mixed signals??? At the time the signals were she was Pi$$ed, don't bother.
That is one of the main reasons I post some of these things. In general I don't see much of what I have to say is going to change anyone's behavior in the short term. I am hoping some guys and women can see patterns in my life and maybe see the mistakes and some successes I have had and hopefully they can apply some of the good things and avoid some of the bad things I have done.
I want some people to see through some of the false impressions I may have had so they can improve their situation. I also want to be busted if someone sees some faulty thinking on my part.
Concerning the feedback I receive, PMA and go for it, be more confident, more alpha works sometimes. It also has a price to me and an impact on BB. Those prices and impacts are always being evaluated. Some days PMA and being more alpha works, sometimes they don't.
SHE WAS SHOWING PO'D SIGNALS BUT STILL WANTED SEX. See, that was right out of your W's mouth. She did want sex but wasn't able to show it outwardly and it came out all wrong, pissy, avoidant, whatever. My problem with this, why 20 years later?????????? Not fair no matter what anyone says now.
Also consider it was when I was being made aware or at least some popular women were spouting women's right, women's independence, men have to be more feminine and caring, alpha is controlling. I guess it was part of the times (culture changing) that was a problem. What I see is women want to be equal when it comes to some things but still want an alpha male to do the work they don't want to do.
And just like your W, I WANT my H to be assertive enough to read through the BS and take charge a little LFL play along with me for a little. (my case, I assume yours is different)
So you want to spout off on 10 different things that bother you or don't like, act like you deserve more, and I am supposed to tell which things (things that irritate you or things you want) and determine the ones I should ignore, which things I should be able to tell are BS, and which things I really need to pay attention to?????
(LFL I see some of your reasons for saying be alpha, but I guess in my R there are too many situations where I can guess wrong, or don't have enough successes to balance out the times I don't get it right.)
I have a similar thing happen with my work. I have 2 or 3 days in a row that no one wants to spend the money to repair anything so I just seem to waist my time evaluating problem printers. This results in low income, an attitude that leads to why try to get things to work. There will only be a likely hood of 50% of the customers willing to do what it takes to fix the situation.
I know R are not printers, but some of the feelings are the similar. The OP wants the R if it is easy and does not cost much.
Also in R's there has to be a certain amount of rewards and successes to failures for a person to keep trying to make the R better, what ever better means to each partner????
In my case, too many chances to get it wrong so I hide in my cave sometimes, don't interact much with BB for fear of getting it wrong. That is like someone saying the stew needs more spice so I pepper it more only to be held responsible for taking out the pepper after the stew is cooked.
OTH if I think I should ignore some things and do what I think is right and also say to myself the screw ups are OK, don't worry about them, I can see that working. close has to be acceptable to both spouses.
I WANT my H to be assertive enough to read through the BS and take charge a little. Not retreat, not avoid, not sulk. etc Too many men on here do that and it makes the situation so much worse Not retreat? I can buy that intellectually. What I have trouble with is getting little feedback about what is working and what I do right in my R. I think BF said you need to throw out some rewards because your H got close to what you wanted.
When I ignore some of the BS the R seems to suffer. The task I have trouble with is determining which BS to ignore, get it wrong and the intimacy/EC/sex decreases.
I think R are like going to a store. Go often enough and what you want is not there, damaged, over priced, have to wait in line too long, you get so you don't want to go to the R the store. What should add to the joy in your life becomes another chore to wade through, hoping you will get it right..
So maybe I and other guys need to ignore the BS, but which BS is not important, and which BS if ignored takes so many love units out of the love bank, the R becomes impaired a little at a time till one does not want to deal with BS?
More but work calls.
I am already losing EC credits today. The ice maker has an ice cube stuck in it. That was 15 minuets ago when I was notified and BB is visibly more grumpy. Which clues do I ignore????? She got out the "you are never going to fix anything around the house 1950 ice-cube trays, like so many times before.
Eight cubes in the ice maker tray, part of the way out. One got turned around a little and jammed but BB cant see any cubes at all. Is this also part of some BS that I should ignore somehow. Or is it something to keep the pot stirred up so she can have her space or avoid sex?
I also did not cook breakfast for her. Two strikes for the day, no three strikes. She wants a new storm door because she saw a new one more to her liking and style preference.
LFL, thanks for the help and insights. I do consider what you have to say. Just don't know how to impliment some things.
thank you for all of the valuable insight. i have been on this board for less than a week and already i feel a change in my life. michelle's book was the first step - but these stories are really changing me. not the relationship, necessarily - yet. but i feel so much better just having an awareness of what's going on. it's all coming into focus.
and THAT has given me a 'calm assertiveness' in a sense. this weekend i applied that - even though much of 'alpha' psychology is new to me. things went much smoother until this morning. which i will get to...
understanding her LD and the possible causes of it have changed my outlook on life dramatically. first of all, i am content with my own HD. and i am content that if things don't continue to change (which they are...slowly) i will be fine with leaving this R. it will hurt, badly. but it will hurt a lot more to stay. knowing that things will be 'ok' either way... has given me confidence. we are on a 'once a week' agreement. but i am still afraid to ask her if she ever imagines things changing... like radically changing...her changing. back into the person she used to me when we started dating. if the 'newness aphrodesiac' is the only reason she was HD at the beginning... i believe this R is all but over. but if it was a combination of trust issues and my assertiveness changing... which can both be restored... than i still have hope for this R.
we're not married and we have no kids. but love is worth it for me. i fantasize about her every day. and if i can have back what i once had... i will give it everything i've got.
oh - this morning... apparently i've been saying other women's names in my sleep. maybe this is it's own thread. she said if it happens once more she is leaving. i suspect she's exaggerating... but this is so frustrating. i can't help this! all i need is more complications!!
You need to assert that alpha male and remind her....YOU have no control over what goes on in your mind while you are asleep. Dreams are one way our body re-hashes issues and releases stress.
It's unfair of her to even make a statement like she did.
maybetime i believe this R is all but over. but if it was a combination of trust issues and my assertiveness changing... which can both be restored... than i still have hope for this R
I hope you keep posting on the forum for several months. Any direction takes time to change and to make it somewhat permanent.
i've been saying other women's names in my sleep. maybe this is it's own thread. she said if it happens once more she is leaving It is called women-speak. It really means she had her feelings hurt and wonders if you have feelings for someone else. Some women want the man to control everything so they are the happy fairy princess, not doable and not fair.
If you had a dream about the former PM of the UK, Margaret Thatcher or Nancy Reagan, the former First Lady of the USA, would she be angry? I hear they are both single again?
Quote: SHE WAS SHOWING PO'D SIGNALS BUT STILL WANTED SEX. See, that was right out of your W's mouth. She did want sex but wasn't able to show it outwardly and it came out all wrong, pissy, avoidant, whatever. Lots of women probably do this. I do. And just like your W, I WANT my H to be assertive enough to read thru the BS and take charge a little. Not retreat, not avoid, not sulk. etc Too many men on here do that and it makes the situation so much worse. Sure the women should not be giving such mixed signals, but that's reality. WE DO!
Gotta jump in here. This absolutely drives me nuts!! Lou, BB's inability to communicate her wants is not your problem. It is hers (IMHO). Even though, according to L4L, it may be the way things are, I don't think you should assume resposibilty for BB's communication problem.
For some reason, it appears to me that many LD W's have little trouble saying no to sex (and mincing no words when doing so.) Yet for some reason have trouble communicating when they do want to ML. That is her problem not yours. Do not own it now.
I think a completely ND female is probably pretty rare. Just like a ND male. But again, I think women will M the man they LOVE and not always the man they want to F*ck. Maybe men do that too. (The whole madonna/whore thing again).
one time.
to be appreciated. If it is a different roast (think coffee) it becomes a issue to prove most men are domineering/controlling. Of course, BB is picky.
