Re Lil she's suing him for two years' back child support (~$14,000), interest, her lawyer's fees AND she wants him to go to jail for ten years. XW probably is looking at bf's mothers business interests, thinking one day the mother will die and bf will get her assets. XW wants a in-place plan to get her share. But your bf in some ways owes child support. The 10 yr jail is over the top.
I take it the girls live with their mother most of the time?
I'm very proud of him that he did not use this as an excuse to start drinking. And when he told each daughter about the suit, there wasn't a trace of animosity or resentment in his voice. He was utterly neutral, straight, factual, reasonable, practical-- there was no "color," no name calling, very little expression of feeling at all. To me, that would be a huge improvement over what might have happened 2 years ago. WTG.
(Privately he told me his first impulse was to kill her!) That sounds somewhat normal if you know he has a lot of restraint normally.
by "decent, I mean ~$25K - $35K-- not what most of you would consider decent, but enough for a modest lifestyle Not bad especially if he has no or only small monthly payments. sometimes it is not what you earn, its what you spend that determined financial success.
Sorry bf and you have to go through this. The girls sound wonderful. Take care of yourself.
This background helps to bring your BF into a better light for me. I wonder how he can be truly intimate and vulnerable with you if he still harbors such resentment toward his ex. I would think that has to come out no matter how hard he tries to suppress it. Maybe you have one of those opportunities to show him you are not his ex and he shouldn’t keep treating you as if you were…. one of this difficult, touchy but potentially important opportunities like Hairdog and Chrome may have.
Then again, I expect you have already tried to address this, so maybe I’m not giving you any new ideas.
You are so right, cobra. After reading over what I wrote, my thought was, "No wonder he isn't interested in intimacy. He is still fighting for his survival."
Lou, the issue of whether he owes child support is not in question. He knows he owes it. If he had been in open communication with his ex over the past couple of years about all this health and financial setbacks instead of funneling the info through the girls, it might have made a difference. OTOH from what I've heard about her, it might not have. She's as completely self-absorbed as many of the spouses that are discussed on this board... Z-Bube's W comes to mind, and hairdog's... and even BB. She is the one who walked out on him, and yet she feels that she is the wronged one. (I can often understand why she walked out on him-- I've thought of it many times, although I suspect our reasons would be slightly different.)
Lil, If he had been in open communication with his ex I don't know about bf's X but I suspect hearing about your bf's medical/work issues either from bf or through the girls, would make little difference, unless he negotiated changes to any legal requirement [as] things changed for your bf. That is if Xw would have agreed to some changes.
People tend to use what is to their advantage and if XW has a court or divorce agreement for XXX dollars a month and she is mostly interested in her own good, the agreement proves she is justified in her actions.
With the XW getting the D and your bf feeling like he was wronged, I can see his reluctance to talk with the XW. I can imagine feeling like I would be opening a can of worms when trying to work things out with her, so might do the other common thing, use a third party. I know it is not right, but it's done more than it should be.
it might have made a difference. OTOH from what I've heard about her, it might not have I go for the it might not have. because she is not trying to get him back.
I suspect the XW knows bf's mother will or could help him, especially if there is a threat of jail.
How much of the threat of "jail time" is really only a bluff or tough sounding legal talk in your state?
The kids I worked with that were over 18 (jail time eligible) knew the legal system did not want to put some of then in jail. The legal system mostly wanted the financial obligations to be pair off. Some kids got 10 days but served 3 because the jail got a higher offence criminal in, so the jail released small fry early.
I even got calls from judges saying the county did not want to spend the money for jail time for some cases if we could come up with a plan for community service.
I know your state is is not MT. Just thought I would tell you what goes on behind the scene sometimes. I suspect the XW would rather have the money.
although I suspect our reasons would be slightly different I would say you are right. Bf has made many improvements, so the reasons for backing off or ending the R would be different.
I agree with Lou's assessment of what your BF's ex is doing. I think she's just trying to milk out the last bit of money she can. The cheapest and least painful route may be to just pay her off in exchange for dropping all charges.
I still think this is a great opportunity for YOU! What better time to step up and show your committment to the R and bring out the issues that are keeping you BF trapped in his resentment and emotional distance. I think this could be he kind of breakthrough that can do more than all the books you have read over thepast 5 years! He is 50% of the equation, plus all you haveto do is get him to agree to talk about it in counseling, so your completely off the hook.
See, there are goods things that do happen to good people! Karma always seems to work out justly.
Lou, I don't know about the reality of the jail threat in our state. I'm sure she wants the money, and I think she is doing this to get his attention. I think he should borrow the $$ from his mom, write her a check, get a lawyer to deliver it, make sure the paperwork is in order for the future, and get it over with with as little fuss, muss, and bother as possible.
I believe their original decree stated that the child support would be a percent of his net income. But I believe also a dollar amount was noted that was a percentage of his income at that time. And as I said, he was religious in paying it, even at the height of his drinking.
He told me last night that the date in the papers re the beginning of the non-payment period is July 2004. He was laid off from his job and had the heart surgery in April 2004. Even so, he made the April payment. He made the May and June payments from his unemployment check, and the amount he paid was the original percent, but of the unemployment check.
What he should have done is right then sat down with her or communicated with her and said, this is my new financial situation, let's renegotiate. But at the time, his priority was getting over the quad bypass surgery, dealing with the layoff and cessation of income (except for umemp), stopping drinking, etc. Okay, that was his excuse at the time, and that excuse might have carried him for a year or so. I told him several times during that period that he really needed to talk to her. I could just picture how mad she was getting. And somehow I think he thought she should have been able to intuit what he was going through and be sympathetic and understanding without his having to ask for it. This would be a lot to ask from anyone, but it makes no sense to expect understanding from her, given their history, and given his knowledge of her personality (he's known her since she was 15.)
Bf keeps attributing potential to her that I do not see. (Kind of like you keep attributing potential to BB, Lou, that the rest of us do not see.) I mean, he hates her now, which probably means he loves her, too.
Anyway, as is typical of the 7, he puts things off, hopes they will resolve themselves, puts a positive spin on stuff when it's not appropriate (just like we 4's put a negative spin on stuff when it's not always appropriate).
Cobra wrote
Quote: What better time to step up and show your committment to the R and bring out the issues that are keeping you BF trapped in his resentment and emotional distance. I think this could be he kind of breakthrough that can do more than all the books you have read over thepast 5 years! He is 50% of the equation, plus all you haveto do is get him to agree to talk about it in counseling, so your completely off the hook.
I'm intrigued by this, cobra, but I confess I don't have the slightest idea what you're getting at. However, I'm dying to hear your explanation. Get bf to talk about WHAT in counseling? Forgiving her? He does talk about that with his therapist. We've been to two therapists together, the Undefended Love workshop, and a forgiveness workshop (taught by his therapist)... what is it you feel we should be talking about now? He has no problem talking about his resentment and exactly WHAT it is that she did that he's so mad about. He recognizes that he has not forgiven her. And I agree that those reasons mask things that are going on within him. I think he and his C are working on those. Spell out for me how this can be a breakthrough for him and me? I'm not discounting your ideas-- just not understanding.
I’m just thinking along the lines of your posts that his resentment toward his wife is holding him back in his relationship with you and if he could truly see that and resolve it, he might be able to move forward. I recall long ago, after I graduated from grad school and was dating around, which was 2-3 years after I broke up with my college girlfriend, this girl I was seeing at the time told me I still had not gotten over that old girlfriend. I remember being taken aback and feeling rather stunned at her comment because I had no clue how much I was still hung up on her.
I was just thinking your BF is still hung up on his ex. He may hate her and be resentful toward her, but underneath all that could be other feelings that are keeping him trapped, like does he still love her, or does he still love the idea of what they could have/should have been, something like that. If he has talked about all this and is working with his therapist on these issues, maybe there is not much more to do. But it sounds like he has been struggling with this a long time. There must be a lot of water under the bridge for him to have gone through two therapists, two workshops and he is still stuck on the issue. If there is any comparison to my experience, focusing on his anger toward his ex will not get him anywhere. With me, the real source of my problems was with my FOO, specifically my mother.
I know that only his therapist can help him with these issues, which is why I said you are off the hook. I was not aware how much of this he was already working on. Still, if you can help him break through this issue (and I’m not sure how you do this) I would think he could finally experience what true devotion, caring and love means. That is the opportunity I had in mind, the chance to stand by his side in these tough times and come out together even stronger and more committed. It is the hard times that creates the lasting bonds and shows what true love is all about. It does not take much commitment to hang around when things are good. Does your BF understand this concept?
Okay, cobra, I get where you're coming from. I agree that bf still being so mad at ex is a hindrance to our intimacy. But get this wrinkle: his character is such that he uses his still being angry AS A WAY of avoiding intimacy, kwim? The two go hand in hand.
I think he realizes that his still being angry is a hindrance to his growth sort of, but it feels so right and so righteous and so justified to him, that he probably doesn't believe that getting past it would make much difference. (How can something that feels so Right be so Wrong?) He knows he needs to get past it, but he clings to it.
I think this clinging to resentment is also tied up in FOO issues with his mom. That's a huge can o' worms! When she comes over for dinner every other Sunday (and yesterday, being Father's Day, she was here), she gets me in the kitchen and tells me about all the men at the bar who tell her they love her and want to hug and kiss her and dance with her. God, it is so pathetic. Such tales week after week would be pathetic coming from a girl of 20-- let alone a woman of 88! She has no real friends, people who really care for her. Her social life is those barflies! Anyway, don't get me started.
I think my bf has only experienced the love of a woman (his mom and his ex) when it's mixed up with strings, weirdness, drugs, danger, punishment, etc. I don't think he has ever experienced simple sweetness, except for a short time after the twins were born and he was the stay-at-home dad and his ex was the breadwinner. He recalls those days as happy. Of course, he WAS drinking then, so who knows. He had been sober for four or five years, and told me the (to me, icky) story of New Year's Eve when he fell off the wagon when he and then-W shared a bottle of champagne and "that night the twins were conceived." Ugh! Hearing that makes me nuts. He hasn't told me the story recently, but it is forever etched in my memory. And you'll probably wince when I tell you that that very champagne bottle sits on his coffee table in front of his face to this day, made into an oil lamp. He says the bottle reminds me of the happy event of the twins' birth.
OK, I understand your frustration, BUT, remember the string of posts with Mojo (sorry Mojo, here I go again, no offense meant though) where she kept deflecting to the point that you got so frustrated and fed up that you left her thread for a while? For some reason her deflections didn’t get to me. I guess I saw what was happening and looked at it more like a science experiment (like someone (you?) told Chrome to do). So I just kept plugging away, addressing each deflection until she ran out of excuses and had to stare the hard facts in the face. Then the epiphany finally came.
Like I’m sure you know, people in counseling can baffle their counselors, or at least keep them sidetracked long enough to never confront the true issue, so they stay in counseling forever (assuming no counselor conspiracy to keep the sessions going forever). Maybe the threat of a jail term will bring him to his senses, along with the impact that could have on the rest of his relationships.
As for his mother…. Well when my wife gets going on my side of the family, I often have a hard time defending them because they are fcuked up. So I tell my kids not to look on my mom or their cousins as relatives, but rather from the perspective of looking at monkeys at the zoo. Those monkeys can do all sorts of crazy dysfunctional things and the kids can just laugh, rather than get caught up in the drama.
Your BF’s mother, like my mother, seems to be one of those crazy narcissistic monkeys. My brother has the best way of dealing with my mom. He calls her out on her crap by going along with her presumptions and trying to understand why other narrow sighted, selfish people just don’t get how great, good and sacrificing she is. He says this is such a dry, almost matter of fact way, that sometimes it goes right over her head. Then we just all laugh. Sometimes she gets pissed off, but then… who cares.
My point is that you need to detach a little and not let this BS get under your skin. Also, don’t be so quick to bail. Something is making you do this from your FOO, which is unfortunate because you may be bailing just when things are getting good, not just in terms of the irony and sarcasm available to you, but also the opportunities to move forward.
One other more serious point… My wife has this same tendency to bail, except she used to throw out the ultimatums. Just knowing she was always ready to launch that weapon kept me on eggshells and maintained this cloud of intimidation over the relationship. I finally realized how she was indirectly controlling me and it really ticked me off. Maybe your BF feels some of the same.
What may make it worse for your BF is that he may be replicating in his relationship with you his feeling of powerlessness he has with his mom (and his ex). So he has pre-existing hot buttons that are very difficult for you or anyone else to avoid. If his mother is anything like mine (a dominate, assertive, self centered personality), the only way he could survive and assert himself was through passive aggressive behavior. He seems to have an awful lot of this in him.
You know that not acknowledging and processing anger is not atypical of passive aggressive people. Since his bottom line issue is probably over abandonment of some form (guessing this because of his narcissistic mother), it would make sense that he too developed the not wanting to want defense mechanism and so avoids intimacy. So if he is like my wife, I am guessing that maintaining anger keeps him in the safe zone – he has an excuse to not confront his relationship dilemma (commit to you or accept your leaving the relationship) because his anger is not his fault but that of his ex-wife, and this in turn makes a good defense for him to avoid confronting his abandonment issues. I hope these are some of the things he is working on with his counselor.
Re Lil I believe their original decree stated that the child support would be a percent of his net income........He made the May and June payments from his unemployment check, and the amount he paid was the original percent, but of the unemployment check. Looks like you have enough information and I do hope your bf borrows the money from his mother to move on with this situation.
What he should have done is right then sat down with her or communicated with her and said, this is my new financial situation, let's renegotiate. But at the time, his priority was getting over the quad bypass surgery, dealing with the layoff and cessation of income (except for umemp), stopping drinking, etc Those "are" a lot of issues to work on all at once.
And somehow I think he thought she should have been able to intuit what he was going through and be sympathetic and understanding without his having to ask for it. True to a point but with much anger, if she is still or ever was angry, maybe sympathy goes out the door. Especially if she feels she was the wronged spouse.
This would be a lot to ask from anyone, but it makes no sense to expect understanding from her, given their history, and given his knowledge of her personality (he's known her since she was 15.) Lil, those early loves hold some people captive for an entire lifetime even when intellectually one or both know it was not a good or mature/compatible R.
