more about Lil's 6/11/06 post
Re Lil I think The Zone was a figment of my imagination. I have trouble with that "figment of my imagination" like other people do.
Lil. I don't know what word to describe how this might tie into your in or out of the Zone thoughts. It is from
People Skills How to Assert Yourself, Listen to Others, and Resolve Conflicts By Robert Bolton Ph.D
A LIFE-OR-DEATH MATTER
Most human interaction is for better or for worse. Each moment with another person can be an opportunity for discovery and growth or for the erosion of identity and the destruction of one's person-hood. <if extreme> Our personality development and mental and physical health are linked to the caliber of our communication. <to a point>
One does not become fully human without interaction with other human beings. Indeed, the philosopher Martin Heidegger refers to language as "The dwelling place of being."
People need people. As the title of one book had it, "You can't be human alone." Each person matures through enhancing dialogues with others.
In The Mystery of Being, Gabriel Marcel observes, "When some body's presence does really make itself felt, it can refresh my inner being; it reveals me to myself, it makes me feel more fully myself than I should be if I were not exposed to its impact." <that sounds like it applies to Lil>
Conversely, lack of communication or frequent exposure to poor communication diminishes one's self-hood both emotionally and physically. <remember being differentiated? not being emeshed?>
Many believe that mental illness is primarily a problem of inadequate communication. <that sounds a bit over stated> The psychologically sick individual has not achieved good human relationships. <it's more than that IRL, but on with this person's point>
According to Carl Rogers, "The whole task of psychotherapy is the task of dealing "with a failure in communication." <Whole? maybe part? what do you think>
<my comments, opinions>
Again
"When some body's presence does really make itself felt, it can refresh my inner being; it reveals me to myself, it makes me feel more fully myself than I should be if I were not exposed to its impact."
Conversely, lack of communication or frequent exposure to poor communication diminishes one's self-hood both emotionally and physically.
Lil, you said you feel appreciated, important, respected, understood when people listen to you when you speak. Your bf's fog has no/few rational answers and prevents/restricts presence. It's no wonder you feel so lonely/frustrated sometimes. Answers, finding one's way around, and connections are difficult to find in a fog. Fog is mostly limbo/up in the air/nothing concrete/ no rules land. How do you find presence or connections there?
I also suppose many here on the SSM forum feel the lack of presence when the physical R is so limited, infrequent, or of low quality.
The book People Skills How to Assert Yourself, Listen to Others, and Resolve Conflicts By Robert Bolton Ph.D is one I saw mentioned often in book reviews. My C (once a month appointments) asked me to pick something and read it before my next appointment.
Will the book help me clear away some for in our R? Who knows. Can it help you? Who knows. I just saw something that reminded me of your situation and you, wanting to be understood by your SO and being in what the book refers to as "presence" or what I call having an emotional connection to a SO, and visa-versa.
Maybe when you thought you were in "The Zone" you two were more "in the presence" with each other. I suspect it does not take much to be "out of the presence" either.
Quote: Maybe when you thought you were in "The Zone" you two were more "in the presence" with each other. I suspect it does not take much to be "out of the presence" either.
This is VERY insightful. It's funny, but I've often said that all people really want is to be seen and to be heard. Most of the books we read on this board and the other solutions we try to apply to our R's are about really seeing/hearing and being seen/heard.
I just picked up a communication book, too, called "Saying What's Real," that gives concrete communication tools. Just the first chapter addressed the "fog machine," although not by that name. The author said that when people go off on tangents like that in response to something, it's usually because they're afraid. And of course, I had just made the comment about "not wanting to stay in a sexless R forever" when he launched the fog.
The point of the book (just like the point of ALL the books) is to learn that we can be ourselves and express ourselves and that even if our partner has a bad reaction we can live through that. Even if the R doesn't survive, we can live through that, too. But if we're not ourselves, we'll feel only half alive (if that much).
My bf thinks and feels that I want to control him, but in my mind I just want to be heard. But this book illustrates very subtle ways that we (including me) exert control during conversations. So maybe his perception that I am trying to control him is partly his projection and partly a truth that I'm unwilling to acknowledge.
Quote: My bf thinks and feels that I want to control him, but in my mind I just want to be heard. But this book illustrates very subtle ways that we (including me) exert control during conversations. So maybe his perception that I am trying to control him is partly his projection and partly a truth that I'm unwilling to acknowledge.
The underlying sense of being controlled can often be attributed to the "controllee's" knowledge that the other person has a predetermined desired outcome in mind.
I don't know how to determine how much of what and how I am saying something is an attempt to put it well and at a good time and how much is actually riding on the hope that if I do present it just right - then the other person will agree with me and I'll get to enjoy whatever it was I was trying to lobby for in the first place. How to figure out what is good presentation and how much is manipulation is a fine hair I haven't been able to assess.
The sense of not being heard is sometimes the result of the other person not agreeing with you. You (rhetorical you) state your opinion, the other person states theirs. You then restate your opinion in a slightly different way because obviously they didn't get it. They restate their disagreement. Everyone's frustration level starts to rise.
And in cases like this, it isn't that you aren't being heard, it is that the other person doesn't agree, doesn't see it that way, or can't. We just keep trying to convince ourselves that our opinion is so obviously true or reasonable that the other person isn't agreeing because they must simply not have grokked the clarity or rightness of your expressed opinion.
When we want something from someone whether it is sex, approval, agreement, etc. - I don't know how it can't be some form of manipulation unless you have absolutely no interest in the response/outcome.
When we want something from someone whether it is sex, approval, agreement, etc. - I don't know how it can't be some form of manipulation unless you have absolutely no interest in the response/outcome.
Then does this mean that even a boundary is a form of manipulation?
Lil, when bf gives one of his fog talks IE, ( I don't know/ can't guarantee what will happen 30 minuets from now ), I have been there too. Sometimes if feels as if BB is wanting a 100% assurance/commitment from me. (feeling like= whirlpool, monkey with the grape in hand stuck in the trap, volunteer for an hour but it takes 3 hours to do the job type of thing))
Instead of pushing the issue, ask your bf to pretend to be Mr Spock or Vulcan like and ask for a probability (with in 25%) of something happening. Emphasize that you mostly want to determine his for /against feelings, not his ability to actually deliver the goods in a tough situation.
I know for myself, I intend or think something is easy to do, but get hung up with more details and work than I had anticipated more than once. This made me back-off talking about doing and committing to some things.
BB now see my cautiousness as an unwillingness to do certain things. I felt I promised too much in the past and now have to protect myself from over promising and possibly not delivering the goods as she wishes them to be delivered and on her time table. But bf is not me. FWIW.
I just picked up a communication book, too, called "Saying What's Real," that gives concrete communication tools. Just the first chapter addressed the "fog machine," ..... it's usually because they're afraid. And of course, I had just made the comment about "not wanting to stay in a sexless R forever" when he launched the fog. I hope the book helps to nail down your bf's response to something more concrete.
Going down on you, has an ick factor, HJ's take too long, "do they have to show that on the screen," sounds like a long way to go for a guy that is where your bf is at now. Of course there are more less intensive sexual things to do and to consider so maybe i should not have included the harder-core list.
Peace Between the Sheets sounds easier to do. But that is for you and your bf to decide.
I am not being critical of bf, I was there too at one time on the oral, HJ's,....hum, I guess it was BB that said it took too long but I was uncomfortable mostly because of my up-bringing. I did it though and BB was my first sexual gf but I was in my early 20's. You know all of that strict moral/church doctrine. Had to overcome that. I think there is some truth in the drinking and development stages AA talks about.
I heard something similar when I attended a lecture about inmates being released. They act about the same way as they did when locked up even if their release date made them 20 years older IRL.
"do they have to show that on the screen" I would have thought that if my mother was around, if I had a new gf and wanted to impress her I was not a jerk just looking to get into her pants, but I was in my early 20's when it happened. You know all of that strict moral/church doctrine. Had to overcome that.
So how do you get through the fog and help your bf go from where he is, to where you are comfortable with the R? That is the $64 dollar question. I know the answer in not a new set of PJ's.
For all of those that think the forum post are unethical, don't read the forum. Just threw that in for good measure.
I hope you get some ideas from the new book to try with your bf, Lil.
Re MrsNop When we want something from someone whether it is sex, approval, agreement, etc. - I don't know how it can't be some form of manipulation unless you have absolutely no interest in the response/outcome.
I was hoping BB would want the same thing most of the time, not trying to manipulate her.
I dis like living in a R where there are too many opposites. As far as opposites attracting and it is good. I say it sucks.
it isn't that you aren't being heard, it is that the other person doesn't agree, doesn't see it that way, or can't I agree.
"But I shouldn't have to" said the prince/princess in his/her center of the universe chair.
Oh well moving on, hanging another door in the bunk house.
Quote: When we want something from someone whether it is sex, approval, agreement, etc. - I don't know how it can't be some form of manipulation unless you have absolutely no interest in the response/outcome
Alas, this does seem to be the key to serenity. Knowing the difference between the things you can change (yourself) and the things you can't (other people).
cobra, you can set boundaries, but in doing so you must accept that all your boundary is is a request. The only way to "enforce" a boundary is to take some action of your own that takes you out of range of the damaging behavior that the boundary was supposed to protect you from. You simply cannot make someone else do anything. That's why it's better to be with someone who wants to get to the same place you want to get to. You, my friend, are swimming against a strong current.
The new communication book ("Saying What's Real" by Susan Campbell) I've been reading has brought up some really interesting things.
The topic comes up here (and elsewhere) often regarding whether a person is “controlling.” Usually by that we mean that one person is trying to control or “manipulate” another person.
But this book offers a much broader definition of control, which I think is very thought-provoking. The author includes in her definition trying to control not just the other person, but the outcome of the conversation, your own feelings, the other person's feelings, and, well, anything. Her premise is that you just have to step up and say what you want to say without ANY expectations or attempt to influence the outcome, and in full knowledge that the other person may respond in any way at all. To put any "spin" on your comments in the effort to control the outcome, she calls "controlling." QUITE interesting! I imagine this idea will raise some hackles… it did on me until I thought about it some.
Here’s a quote:
Quote: ”Unmasking the intent to control”
In my opening paragraph, I mentioned that every communication has an intent behind it. Most of us do not have the knowledge, the skill, or the confidence to address the often hidden intent of another’s communication—especially if the intent has something to do with trying to control an unknown outcome or trying to mask one’s anxiety about feeling ‘not in control.’
People try to manipulate the outcome of their interactions all the time. And if they’re not doing that, they’re trying to bolster their egos by acting more in control of or ‘on top of’ the situation than is actually the case. In my research, I discovered that most human communication comes from the (usually unconscious) intent to control.
Most of us are not aware of when we are communicating with the intent to control and when we are expressing our feelings and thoughts simply to exchange information.
The intent to control reveals itself in many disguises: <And I guess if you want to split hairs, all of these are essentially dishonest…for those of you who consider honesty to be important.>
*Denying that you feel pain when you’re hurting
*Trying to impress others <This is me through and through. I do this with my bf all the time. I’m always trying to impress him, get his attention, get some affirmation or kudos from him—and I do it on this board, too.>
*Manipulating to get what you want
*Being nice or agreeable to avoid a hassle
*Lying to protect someone’s feelings
*Assuming your know something that you really cannot know, instead of living with the uncertainty of the situation (e.g jumping to conclusions or making assumptions about what someone else’s behavior means)
*Keeping silent to avoid conflict
*Playing it safe
*Trying not to rock the boat
*Trying to appear more ‘together’ or composed than you really feel
As you look down this list, you’ll notice that all of these things have something to do with avoiding uncomfortable feelings (e.g. anxiety about not feeling in control) or avoiding an unwanted outcome.
Cobra, I think some of the stuff here might be particularly helpful for you. There's a whole chapter on wanting and I think you would really be able to relate to. Like your W, I'm someone who learned not to want. The chapter is too long even for me to quote , but she talks about how we must ask for what we want even if we think or know we won't get it. Asking in itself is a good exercise, a good process, and living with the resulting disappointment teaches us that we CAN live even if we don't get what we want. Asking is an act of trust and those muscles need to be exercised.
Here's a couple of really thought-provoking quotes
Quote: It's just as controlling to try to protect someone from knowing your true wants as it is to beat them over the head with your wants. A want is only a want. It is not a command or an order.
And
Quote: Allowing yourself to want whatever you really want is an excellent way to affirm how innocent and noncontrolling the state of wanting really is.
IOW when we allow ourselves to want, we really get in touch with how little control we have over anything outside of ourselves, and she's saying that this is a good thing for us to know about the world. She says that it's good for us to learn that we can feel disappointed and still survive and that we can disappoint others and still survive. So many of these modalities and books point to the same thing: that we aren't really "damaged" by feeling bad although it's the thing we seem to resist the most. All of these books are telling us that we need to proceed honestly, innocently, and spontaneously ("Become as little children" perhaps?) into the world-- that that is how we will function best and be the happiest, even if the world responds indifferently or unkindly.
I'm only in the second chapter. Very meaty stuff.
So maybe my bf's perception that I'm demanding (if that's his synonym for "controlling") is accurate. I do spin what I say pretty carefully. He has told me not to do that, but I hate his abrupt responses or his deeps sighs or eye-rolling. He has said many times that all his ex had to to was just "ask" for something, but she would not ask and then get mad at him for not doing something. Well, I've stopped asking for personal-relational stuff because of his reactions, but maybe it would be a good exercise for me to just come out of the bushes and bare my wants. Ugh! That's scary to think about! Probably a sign that it's something I need to do.
re Lil Well, I've stopped asking for personal-relational stuff because of his reactions, but maybe it would be a good exercise for me to just come out of the bushes and bare my wants.
That is something like me saying sometimes I just have to take what I want from the R. I don't take if it truly hurts BB.
So, yes Lil. Ask for what you want. I know the feeling of As you look down this list, you’ll notice that all of these things have something to do with avoiding uncomfortable feelings (e.g. anxiety about not feeling in control) or avoiding an unwanted outcome.
Bf's ex served papers on him-- she's suing him for two years' back child support (~$14,000), interest, her lawyer's fees AND she wants him to go to jail for ten years.
I think if they had been in even minimal communication the past couple of years, this wouldn't have happened. Still, it does seem a bit much.
Even since their D eight years ago he was always RELIGIOUS in paying child support. When he got laid off, then had the quad bypass surgery a week later (two years ago-- April 2004), his income ceased. He had been carrying the two daughters on his health insurance, too, and that ceased. (He had cobra for less than a year-- yes, they dropped him before 18 months-- for the past year or so he has had NO health insurance-- and to have added two family members to the cobra would have been well over $1,000 per month. So the ex put them on her health insurance under duress.).
He was out of work for well over a year... he did have one sales job for a few months that did not work out. Y'all are somewhat familiar with his limited job opportunities due to two felony convictions (drugs) from over 20 years ago (in our state, they can never be expunged; I researched that thoroughly), and lack of a college degree. Being 55 years old doesn't help. All of this is very humiliating to him and contributes to the reason why he hasn't kept in communication with her. I know: bad judgment. There's that 7 tendency to put off thinking about things... just deflect and hope it will all work out somehow.
The job he has now is 100% commission and most weeks he doesn't get a paycheck at all. Eventually he'll get some business in the pipeline and should start making decent money (by "decent, I mean ~$25K - $35K-- not what most of you would consider decent, but enough for a modest lifestyle when $500 per month is NOT being spent on liquor), but he's not to that point yet. His mom helps him financially; she is extremely well off. Ultimately, one day, since he is an only child, her assets will be his. By then he'll have Medicare for insurance-- I hope he lasts that long.
Anyway, none of this excuses his failure to make all of this clear to the ex and keep her fully informed of this all along. He still has NOT forgiven her for being a WAW-- therapy, a firgiveness class, nothing has helped him get past his rage at her. This latest thing is a setback, to say the least.
Although his financial sitch should be no mystery to her, since he gave her his last two income tax returns last month when she was filling out paperwork for their daughters' college financial aid. I believe his income for one of those years was ~$11,000. (House paid for, vehicles paid for-- major expenses are utilities and gasoline).
To his everlasting credit, when he got served with the papers, he did NOT head to the liquor store. He went out to my house and potted up about 20 plants-- three of them were small trees. Then he told me about the bomb. Then he called his therapist and went to his house for a couple of hours. I was SOOOO proud of him for that.
We told each daughter separately yesterday-- one home while the other was at work (twins, just graduated from high school a month ago). They turn 18 in September. To the girls' everlasting credit, where each one MIGHT have said, "But what about money for my college?!?" in fact NEITHER one said that. Each said separately, "Omigod... don't worry about money for college. The lawsuit is at the top of the list of priorities."
And one daughter identified the elephant in the middle of the room. "If y'all would just TALK to each other, this probably wouldn't have happened! Both of you communicate through US, and you shouldn't do that!" She's absolutely right.
Still, the part about 10 years in jail did seem to be overkill. Especially since the DAY before, she had asked the other daughter to ask bf if he could come up with $XX,000 to supplement that daughter's scholarship.
All three of them identify the ex-w at the type of person who looks at every situation strictly for how it directly affects HER. She doesn't seem to see a bigger picture. Let me make this clear: the girls DO NOT trash their mom to my bf and he does not trash their mom to them. (Thank goodness the girls have each other...). But yesterday, Daughter One gave us the example of how she was telling her mom something about her new job, and mom interrupted her with, "What does that have to do with ME? Nothing-- so I don't CARE about that!" This seems emblematic of mom's thinking. I can't imagine that she wouldn't give some thought to how this lawsuit will make her look in her daughters' eyes.
I'm sure several of you have been on one side (or both sides) of a sitch like this, so you may not have any sympathy for him (or his ex)-- and yes, they should by all means keep the lines of communication open. I've never been around anything like this.
I'm very proud of him that he did not use this as an excuse to start drinking. And when he told each daughter about the suit, there wasn't a trace of animosity or resentment in his voice. He was utterly neutral, straight, factual, reasonable, practical-- there was no "color," no name calling, very little expression of feeling at all. (Privately he told me his first impulse was to kill her!)
The girls are SO different in spite of being twins. One cried (she's the one who said, "y'all should talk") and the other was totally cool, calm, and collected (my assessment is that she's the caretaker of her more volatile sister and high maintenance mother and buries her feelings pretty deep).
I think there is some truth in the drinking and development stages AA talks about.
