Thanks for stopping by, everybody (Kent, t, dar, e, tree). I've been working on stuff, and it's about time for an update. I'll post one soon.
Biggest development is we started with new counselor yesterday. She's WONDERFUL!!! She works on a Neuro-Linguistic Programming model, and specializes in families, couples, relationships, and intimacy. W likes her, I like her. First home work was to read Don Miguel Ruiz's "The Four Agreements" (one of my favorites), and "The Mastery of Love". Then a big questionaire designed to show her and us how much we really know about the spouse and how they think, in contrast to how much we "think" we know. It's full of triplets of questions on many topics. Triplet always runs like this.... "What you think..., What you think spouse thinks you think..., what you think spouse thinks...." Forcing us to get in their head. Interesting to see where this goes.
I had my first individual session with new C (W goes on Thursday). I read the books, filled out the questionaire. I had a hard time with the "what do you thinks she thinks that you think" because it required getting into her head, and I really don't do much of that anymore, and I told C that. She responded that was good, because staying out of her head is definately a good thing.
Good things C said.... She saw a lot of caring between us, a lot of friendship. She couldn't tell, until she talked with me, who wanted a divorce and who was trying to save the marriage... To me that's a big thing, cuz W didn't ooze contempt and flight. C had to ask who was the "runner" in the situation... didn't think I was per se, just that neither of us seemed to be trying to get out. W's response to what she needed was "to feel that I love H again". To this, I told see I'd heard it all, that it was just part of the script. C asked if she had said any of the other standard lines, I said yup, I've heard them all.
This woman is just gets better and better. I'm so excited with this C. We talked about true couples trained therapists, about Michele (of course she knows who she is), how she really admires DR. We talked a bit about her NLP training. It's so similar to SBT, that it's as if they are different brands of the same product... like Kleenex and Scotties.
And, things are working already... Among the secrets W still clings to is OM contact, even if "innocent". Last week, W played tennis with a "bunch" (I assumed women), and I asked who(don't usually do this). Turned out to be mixed doubles, and she told me, OM was one of men (this happens, and I know it does, she just doesn't usually mention it -- secret). I was quiet for a moment, then I quietly, calmly said "thanks for telling me that. It matters, and makes me feel you trust me." As she was leaving to go, she said, "uh, we'll be likely going out for a beer after playing, is that ok?" (She NEVER asks, just informs me.... maybe) I said "sure, why should tonight be any different than other nights... Have a great time." And, she didn't stay out very late at all... So, I read that as an attempt to work on secrets and trust. YEAY!
Progress is truly a beautiful thing. Maybe this C is just what your W needs to get out of her fog. I am glad to hear that you asked W the "who" question. It is even better that she answered that and asked you about going it. I smell something good, oh, it's respect. Glad to her your good news Z. Good luck.
quote:Originally posted by Zebra: As she was leaving to go, she said, "uh, we'll be likely going out for a beer after playing, is that ok?"
To me, this is huge! Y'know what it tells me? That she trusts that you won't get your underwear in a knot over this. She trusts you enough to ask you a question that you could say no to, but she fully expects you to say OK.
In other words, she doesn't view you as a roadblock to life's simple little pleasures. She doesn't have to be defensive.
I don't think she was keeping secrets per se. She was just avoiding the hassles of arguing over it. Seems like she doesn't feel the need to do this any more.
I don't think she was keeping secrets per se. She was just avoiding the hassles of arguing over it. Seems like she doesn't feel the need to do this any more.
You've got that exactly right, Andy. Avoiding hassles.... Avoiding conflict. The most destructive pattern in our entire marriage, from day one.
That is exactly what I really mean about 'secrets'. Secrets that she keeps to avoid hassles, conflict. Secrets that eat at her, that when they are finally allowed to come out are devasting, and even worse so when they don't come out. Then add to that the "assumption" that I will react "as I did in the past", or as her father "acted in the past", and you have the three things that I told C I dislike most, and the reasons I dislike them.
I think this is big progress, and made with simple effort.
What I take away is that pretty much all I had to do was state it and then make it "safe" by not reacting badly to the news she was so fearful to deliver. I did really good in this regard.
Oh, there's another thing the C asked today. I told her this story, and she asked how I really felt about her seeing him. I've been working on this for a long time, because I have come to know that I have no say, I have no control in her contact. It is all up to her, her choice. I told this to the C, that I believed any pushing I did would simply push her away and closer to him. I asked and she agreed to read the Infidelity section of DR. I said I had stated my feelings, and my wishes, that I'd prefer she didn't see him socially, and that any contact with him made me uncomfortable. I told the C that otherwise, as far as she seeing him, "it's none of my business". C admired that answer, and corrected me on one thing... that I can't push her any closer to him, as I can not pull her any closer to me. It's all her choice.
C also asked if I ever say OM. I said sure, at least once a week we cross paths in the fitness/tennis club. C expressed some small admiring astonishment at my control...
I just had another thought about the recent C sessions... I suppose that's a sign of a good session.... things keep coming to me the deeper I go, the longer time passes, like peeling an onion (did you see Shrek?)
Quite some time ago, I read somewhere that to totally recover from infidelity, trust had to be rebuild. Forgiveness and trust were the keys. (I think this may have been in Dobson, but I'm not sure). The gist was that forgiveness could be, should be given, but that trust had to be earned. That is was not really possible to simpy give trust, that it had to be earned. Now, I've been holding on to that concept for quite a while even though I don't think I've fully agreed with it. It makes that aspect of recovery from the affair conditional, makes love and respect conditional, and that to me set one up for failure. It imposes demands and control ("behave like this and I will trust you, if not, then you are not-trustworthy...) Anyway, I've been holding on to the concept.
In C, I mentioned that I had forgiven, that I wanted our marriage to work, that I wanted to rebuild the trust and respect. I said I was willing, but that she had to earn that trust. C immediately shot back, "no, she doesn't. You have to trust, as she does, and move ahead." Wow. That hit me. I've been working on it now for a while.... And I see how holding onto this idea has been inhibiting my ability to move ahead, to truly come from a place of unconditional love. As much as I accuse her of living in the past, the idea of requiring her to "earn" trust, to show me that she has changed, is the epitome of living in the past, of not being able to let go of hurt. The pain of the past thereby becomes the standard against which success and growth is measured.
So, here I am letting go of yet more of the crap that makes my life not work. And, it's a beautiful day here in the northeastern US!!!
What an eye opener! The same problem exists in our house. "I will trust you when you are trustworthy." Everything in your last post was new to me and gives me a whole new plan. "I will trust you and you will become trustworthy." This new C is really good.
quote:Originally posted by Zebra: What I take away is that pretty much all I had to do was state it and then make it "safe" by not reacting badly to the news she was so fearful to deliver. I did really good in this regard.
. Make it safe! I love it, Z! I think that this is the piece that’s missing from so many people who are trying to piece their M together!
It’s the next step after acting as-if.
You go dark, act as-if it doesn’t bother you, etc. But then what? Well, you do those things until it doesn’t bother you (or at least until it’s manageable), but if you stop there, your S will always wonder if you’re just swallowing it. At this point, it stays buried and festers.
So the next step is to make it safe.
My W saved money for almost a year in order to buy a motorcycle. She left “hints” around, but didn’t dare bring it up, and I didn’t get the hints (duh). So when she could no longer keep it from me, she fully expected me to try to stop her. She didn’t use much finesse when she told me about it, and I was floored. Not because of what she did, but the fact that she felt it necessary to do it behind my back.
She didn’t feel safe.
I told her what I thought about her methods and proceeded to plan how we could pay for a bike. In other words, I did exactly what you did, Zebra. I stated my feelings and then made it safe.
This was a turning point in my R. By making this one issue safe, I opened the doors to other issues. She feels safer to bring up things, and no longer assumes that I’ll block her road to happiness.
And that, my friend, is precicesly why I think your handling of her “secrets” is an huge step forward in your R.
You say you made big progress with simple effort. Yeah. It was simple in a sense, but all of the elements had to be lined up, or it wouldn’t have worked. You still had to do the groundwork waaaaaaaaaaaay back when, didn't you?
And, the trust thing! Yeah. Makes sense. It comes under the category of things you have to change about yourself, doesn't it? Only you can make yourself trust someone!
Sheesh! It's so simple. But simple isn't the same thing as easy, is it?
This stuff fits nicely into a discussion over on my thread. Gonna paste it in there.
HMMM this is most interesting for me to read. This whole thing on secrets and trust. I think I am a step or two behind you Zedman. Will post this next bit to my own thread too and see what come of it.
Today is the day that H is going out for dinner with his very small working group for the big projecxt he was working on in which the FC(Fantasy Chick) is included along with the female confidante friend, a third regular workie, the boss and one other guy. sigh... They are going to a nice restaurant early after work, and I have this urge to do all kinds of nutbar things- calling his work and leaving an anonymous message for FC that she has to be somewher else at dinner time, calling H and telling me I also have a meeting at same restaurant with some friends and I'll see him there... to just freaking showing up, and or asking him to not go. ( too late for the last option...) He did't tell me until this AM that he'd be late.
The good thing... he told me where he was going and that it was the working group. I have never asked who was on the working group but did see a list of members. I don't even know if he knows that I know! Is this a secret or just an omission of fact? Do I ask after the fact and see if he tells me? I am now soooo wound up.
So.... will get through this day somehow and will reflect on secrets, and trust as part of my homework... nice thread Zed.. (poet and doesn't know it!)
![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon}