Z, Sorry W is still at it. I'm a big one for confronting the affair, lies, bullsh##, etc. You gotta go with your gut on this one. You will get a hundred different opinions. Me, I would suggest she go live with OM so the rest of the family can start to recover. Send her off with your love.
As long as she is playing the fence sitter with you on one side and OM on the other, this kinda stuff will continue.
Good luck on this one. I remember the feelings well.
This afternoon, I had a talk with her. I told her I'd noticed her distancing and withdrawing, and how it felt a lot like "the old days" when she was seeing OM. I said it was a lot like the old OM Hangover, and explained what that was.
I told her I didn't want her to see him. She's in a social situation where he's around a lot of her friends, and it's somewhat impossible to completely avoid him, so I emphasized I don't want her in a situation with him she can choose to avoid, and I definately don't want her to be alone with him at all. I tried to express this all as my desire rather than an order or demand. I'm not sure how this came off. I believe the follow up will make more of an impression... how much she's honest with me, and how well I respond.
I asked when the last time she had met him alone (knowing it to be just the other day). The said she couldn't remember, and then re-raised the issue of my snooping in her email. She said "well, you probably know better than I". I said I don't snoop in her mail anymore (true). She said she doesn't trust me, and I don't trust her. I talked about trust, about how affairs can destroy it. I told her I really want to trust her, but she makes it so hard by staying so closed off and secretive. I pointed out how I've asked her to simply tell me when she'll be home and where she's going when she goes out, but she still resists. I tried to explain how it hurts to not trust or be trusted, how scarey it is when she's out and I know around him. I told her I just need some communication and some reassurance.
I'm working on a strategy to follow up. If it becomes clear she's continuing to meet him, I will reveal more of what I know, and I would tell her I would no longer keep her secret about her affair... not explicitly "out" her, but not lie to hide her affair. Next, I will seriously consider confronting OM. Kent, any pointers here will be welcome... Finally, I'd begin "outing" the affair to friends and family. Haven't gotten much past that. As far as getting her out, I've asked a number of times already, and she refuses. I don't think she can bear the embarrassment. A divorce, yes, and active extra-marital affair that is leading to a divorce, no. Go figure.
Z, I hear a couple of things in your post that I don't see helping. 1. Your W does not trust you. It probably has alot to do with the fact that she is sneaking around, but she has already justified that. I'd give up all forms of snooping. As you said, you know when she has been with the OM.
2.I get the distinct impression that you two are not having much fun togather. Kinda hard to put a positive spin on stuff with no fun. What can ya do about that.
3. ********************************************* I pointed out how I've asked her to simply tell me when she'll be home and where she's going when she goes out, but she still resists. ************************************************ Time to stop asking. As a matter of fact, try to be gone when she comes home. Be out doing your own thing. Try this one for a 180.
4. I think you should contact the OM. I prefer the tele as it restricts you from ripping his head off and shoving it up his ###. Keep in mind that this may piss your W off. Like I said before, making this decision has alot to do with your goals, self respect and disrespect from others. If W is not seeing OM, It does not make sense to pursue this. If she is, ya gotta decide wether to confront, or just send her to him.
5. Stop acting like her daddy! I did this with M wife and I can tell you are doing the same thing. Stop trying to be her moral light. She will only resent you for it.
6. I told you a while back that if your W is still toying with the OM, you should send her to him. That is what I would do. Is that what you would do? You need to decide. We are all different and thus, make different choices.
So tell us about how your W has been working on the R. What have been her efforts. Then tell us what you have been doing. Tell us about your PMA and the goals you have established to improve yourself. Tell us what you are currently working on. Tell us what has been different lately.
Sometimes I loose track of the fact that I tend to come here when I'm hurting or confused or frustrated. I used to be on these boards all the time, but now I go for long stretches where I just leave them alone and get on with my life. I actually deal with this situation pretty much as you suggest, but I realize since I don't post much other than when I'm frustrated, that's not clear. I've asked her to leave, and tried to "send her to OM" a number of times. I don't really ask for much, I pretty much ask once, and let it go. I AM probably guilty of "being her daddy". Working on that. I've been afraid to contact OM, for fear of driving her to him, and fear is another thing I'm working on, and am licking. For now, she seems to have backed off him, so I'm not going to rock that boat. If he reappears, talking to him is on the top of my list. What have I got to loose?
Mostly though, I've been doing pretty darn well. Part of the problems with me have been my own little MLC, mostly career oriented. I'm over that, but I was pretty ugly and grumpy, and I drank too much. I've stopped that, I've stopped worrying about my work. I've been learning and playing tennis, I've been making more friends. I've been being a great dad, so much so I often hear other women comment on how lucky my wife is to have such a participatory dad. Goals for me... Financial independence so I may continue being such a participatory dad. Not a far stretch, I've learned that this is mostly mental. Learn to be more open and honest about my needs. I'm doing that. Learn to be less judgemental. Ditto. I've stopped drinking. I've stopped making excuses. I've stopped therapy, and replaced it with weekly tennis lessons. Better long-term therapy, anyway. I get most of what I need here and from a number of IM and email friends. I'm feeling less as if my marriage desparately must survive for my sake than that I truly want it to survive for all our sakes. I love my family, and my wife, and I want what's best for us all. I recognize that may not be marriage, but I don't believe that yet.
My W's work on the R is tough to describe. She seems to be very confused about what she really wants. This is most evidenced by her unwillingness to leave, and her willingness to go through the motions of "working...". Maybe she's just buying time. The only overt evidence I see of her efforts is that she's not seeing the OM as obviously and blatantly (tho she never really did), and she's attending couples therapy. She doesn't pull back from me, and there has been some slight physical intimacy (but very little emotional intimacy). Her efforts in couples therapy are like her small collection of R books... They've all been opened, and all show signs of having been started -- maybe as far as 1/3 way through -- then she dropped them and moved on to other thing, and back to her patterns. She is very closed, very unwilling to talk about her feelings. I'm the talker, to quote a wise DBer, "I was the one who pushed for communication. W was the cave dweller. This has not changed all that much. I'm not sure that it ever will."
Kent, I so appreciate your help and advice. I have always felt we had some kind of connection. Recently, I've begun following along the JJ's KLA tape discussion, and it was there that I first read much about your personal story. From what you say in your first post in the tape 1 thread, you seem to be where I'd be headed, if the OM were out of the picture. I truly know that he is not the problem, but he is certainly the main barrier to our ability to begin to truly deal with our problem.
The biggest thing I've learned in this ordeal is the value of doing something different. 180's make all the difference in the world, and most of my best results have come from doing things that are often considered totally wrong on these boards. But, the thing I've learned is that it isn't necessarily the specific act, but the fact that it is different that gets the results. I've seen that sitting her down and talking to her about what's bothering me after weeks or more of biting my tongue gets results, even if what I said is controlling and demanding. I suppose she reads it as caring where the silence is read as complacency. I've learned that talking about things more often opens communication, where holding my tongue promotes distancing. Again, it's not that specifics of my situation that I notice are valuable, but the generalities of constantly trying something different. "If what you are doing isn't working, try something else." And when you do something else, keep in mind (from DR) what your goals are. Consider if what you are about to do will bring you closer to them or drive you away, and act accordingly.
Well, that's were I am. I'll stay in better touch from now on. This is a nice place.
Z, I'm glad your still workin on things. Sorry to hear W is still lost. The only question you did not answer is what fun are you two having togather? Do you guys go out at all? Even if she is a bit reluctant, it's worth a try.
Ya know, the thing about fun is really odd. Yes, we do things together, and yes I have fun. She makes plans for both of us and asks me out, I make plans for us, and she comes along with no objection. I make sort of open plans for myself, and if she finds out about the specifics before the event, she joins me.
And, you know, I could swear we have fun. We laugh, we are playful. Not all the time, not every second, but we have good times. Yet, later on, on reflection, she swears she doesn't have fun. She challenges me to tell her about the good times we have. She can't believe that I truly feel that there are any moments at all that are working. In this, she seem totally determined to convince herself of this. Call it selective memory, alien behavior, or what ever, it's incredibly frustrating.
I know I sound obsessed, but I see this happen especially after she's spent some time with OM.
I saw him last night, and W wasn't around. I almost had it out with him, but it would have been pushing things. Boy, is he smug, and does he know how to "hide" behind a crowd. Seems to deliberately seek me out when there are a group of people around and try to make small talk. If I don't participate, I appear an ass to people who don't know the situation, and to those who do, I appear to be exactly the sour-puss I've likely been made out to be to them already. So, I buck up and turn on the social charm and smiles. Then I flip him off when no one else is looking...
Still here, not much to report, just wanted to say hi.
If there has been any progress, I'd say it's mostly with me working on my PMA. I had a long talk with her where I kind of laid out a bunch of things from the way I see them. I told her I didn't want her to see the OM. I told her I believed that as long as she was in private contact with him, sharing ideas, good times, or whatever, she could not focus on us or on our problems. He would be a continuing distraction. It was my intention to frame this as "my desires and wants" to let her know, and as a basic requirement that defined "working on our marriage", as opposed to "my demands about how she behave".
Well, she's been complying, at least overtly. She makes a point to avoid social situations where he will be present, and makes a point of letting me know if he will be at those she does attend. I've stopped checking up on her, stopped trying to get into her email, stopped checking to see where she's parked her car. This is all a big weight lifted from me.
Not to say it's been easy, or that I've not been tempted to revert to my old snooping patterns. I've noticed how much so much of this behavior (snooping, deception) is like an addiction, and in studying and considering it, I've gained a lot of insight into addictive behavior. I've noticed apart from the physical aspects of addiction, the emotional aspects can largely be described as a simply mindless, selfish quest for immediate gratification. And, this quest is made without regard for the consequences or risks until after the particular act has been committed, and one is caused to regret his behavior. Then too often, the pattern repeats, causing perpetual misery disguised in the quest for pleasure and well being. It happens with all sorts of compulsive behavior.... love, sex, power, drugs, gambling. I see it in myself in the snooping activity, and in my wife in her continuing contact with OM. We are pitiful in this regard.
I for one am noticing this and am doing my damnedest to break this pattern and move on in healthier pursuits.
Well, Kent, no, not really any discussion. Just seems to be complying with my wishes. She may just have gone "underground" with OM again, but she's not out till all hours, and she's at least going through the motions of letting me know who she's with and where she's going. She's still out a lot (playing tennis), but is almost always home shortly after tennis club closes.
I've been leaving a lot alone. I've discovered the value of No OR, and I'm getting a feel for the required balance of that and the necessary OR in my R. I'm feeling it's time to begin to say it's time we begin to work on intimacy. I plan to be careful to acknowledge a real distinction between physical and emotional intimacy to not exert unwanted pressure. I believe emotional intimacy may actually be the hardest, because I am now wondering if she's ever been completely emotionally intimate. Physical intimacy is different, and can be "just the act", but emotional is hard. Being emotionally naked can be frightening.
![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon}
Z!