It's been a good week. I'm back under control (of myself), and not letting my impatience rock the boat. That happens. Now it's over. I'm realizing my job is to stay away from what she's doing, stop judging, and show her the best I can be.
From last week's C session, the homework was to go over our "lists" from the first question -- "What is important to you in a long term R?" We were to discuss our lists. We got into only one topic (more about why only one later) -- Trust. Started with an easy one . We did good. No upset, and we pretty much agreed on points. I even mentioned that at some point "we would be discussing the affair, to better learn how her needs went unfulfilled, and to avoid that happening in the future". C liked that one. The other big homework was Acting as if... For her it was acting as if she wanted to be in the marriage, wanted to come home. For me, it was to act as if we respected each other fully. Went well. In fact, W said she had an generally awful work week but home was pleasant and peaceful.
In C, a number of things came up. First was why we only talked about one issue (the trust thing). Turns out I was waiting for W to start up, and she doesn't like to do that. What came out of the is that I asked for permission to start OR talks, and received it. W said she doesn't want to initiate, and in fact admitted that when I don't, she has seen it as indifference and complacency toward OR. Also took my silence on OR as permission to pursue her life elsewhere. So, I'm supposed to pursue OR's and issues. Wow. Another thing that we agreed was that when she's not in the mood for an OR, she's to tell me and we will make an "appointment" to pick up later, rather than a cold dismissal. We also agreed to do the same thing if things get tense in an OR. Agreed to take a "time out" and agree to readdress issue at a specific later time.
Second, W answered one of my questions.... What would be happening if the marriage was working again... She said, (and I'm not kidding) that she would "be in love (with me). I love you, but I'm not in love with you" She said this in a C session! Anyway, we all talked about that, including the differences between "romantic new love" and "mature, lasting love". C mentioned that she needed to understand that, no matter what happens in OR. I pointed out that I'm in somewhat of a disadvantage because she's had recent experience with OM in the area of "romantic new love" and the excitement of that. Anyway, after the session, I said to her that since the Act as if had gone so well for her last week, maybe this week she could add "acting as if she could be in love" with me. I suggested she needed to start with only small thing, like just letting us say "luv ya" to each other, and looking for those good little things. I already got a "throw away" Luv ya on her way out of the house yesterday.
So, it seems to be going well. I'm getting indications that contact with OM is increasing (there's some telltale secrecy things going on), but I'm not letting it get to me. I was going to confront, but then thought, what's the point. The only point would be to call her in a lie, since she assures me there is no contact, but that would only start a fight and cause her to distance. I just need to be a pal. I suppose his presence presents a problem in moving ahead by being a point of comparison to me as I try to get her to be "in love", but if it's not him, it will be something else. I just need to win her on my own, despite the "competition". I can do that. I'm working on some thoughts to expand the idea of asking her to 'act as if she could be in love'. I'll let you folks know as the plan gels. It's a bit sketchy now.
So, I'm just kind of journaling here. Wanted to let you all know I haven't self destructed, and thank you all for your support.
Sounds like you're doing a great job of keeping perspective and staying cool. It's my turn to tell you you're inspiring!
It's so true that when we get "pulled in" by the "competition" aspect of things, it undermines our best efforts. Self-confidence is such a huge magnet. Thanks for these reminders and keep up the good stuff!
Things are going along slowly, and I think in the right direction. We've slept in the same bed now for 6 days, mostly because we had house-guests for the holiday. It was nice. First "pillow talk" in months. Tonight will be interesting. Guests are gone. Don't know where she's gonna sleep.
My big thing right now is the continued presence of OM. I know, I'm impatient, but I need some advice and guidance here. I'm not jumping to conclusions, but I want some help with perspective. W said she would stop seeing OM. She defined that as stopping all contact, and said he was under "strict orders" not to call or email. She and he were mixed doubles tennis partners, and had a tournament the complete which I conceded should be done. I said she should finish her commitments so not to adversely affect other innocent parties, but she should not start any new social involvements with him. She agreed. Now, a number of situations have come to light that show her general untruthfulness in terms of contacts with the circle of friends of which the OM is part, and I've also caught her in a couple of specific lies about contact with OM. Specifically, she has joined another tennis group which he is part of, and she has arranged to play tennis with him on occasions where she told me specifically that she was playing with other people. Additionally, there are a couple of evenings where she says she's playing tennis with women friends, but always comes home quite late after going "out for a beer with the gang". In the past, OM has been a key part of the gang. Finally, just the other night, there was a social outting with a group of tennis friends. OM showed up, and sat at an adjoining table to ours. After a time, W and OM spent considerable time making eyes at each other, though I suspect they didn't think it was noticed. There is more, but you get the idea. I don't suspect any PA, just continued EA.
So, here's the question. I feel that she is flagrantly violating her agreement not to see OM, at least in spirit if not also in practice. I want to know what you all think about calling her on this. See, I believe if she feels she's getting away with it, she will become bolder. There's the other side where if she thinks I know and am not saying anything about it that I'm giving implicit permission (see previous posts for perspective on this). I want to point out that her little games are not unnoticed, and that I feel she's breaking her agreement. I wish to point out to her that as long as she continues to be emotionally invested in OM, she will seriously hinder any progress at reestablishing emotional bonds in our marriage.
Finally, should if you think I might bring it up, any suggestions about how? Should I do it alone, unsupervised, or should I wait to do it in a therapy session? I don't like "springing" things on her in therapy, but it does feel safe. I also don't feel that the C has laid any "ground rules" about the affair, so W feels no impediment to continuing it. I think we both believed C would make a few rules regarding OM contact.
Otherwise, I'm moving along pretty well, just slowly. I've been doing more "me" things, and I'm feeling it's working when I look at the big picture. Unfortunately, I don't think W sees is working, at least not as well as I do. Time will tell...
Thanks folks. I'll try to keep up a little better in future. I sometimes feel a bit overwhelmed by it all, and I feel it's sometimes easier to just fade away and watch instead of actively posting.
Z, You will eventually need to tell her how her actions are causing you pain. You will eventually need to tell her to pick.
You need to decide when that time is. I did it early in my crisis. I even confronted two potential OM's.
The best way to do it is to tell her in a non-confrontational manner what you know. Then make it clear that she is making her own choices which do not appear to include salvaging the R.
If she is playing the EA game with OM, it may be better to urge her to leave at this point.
Here's kind of an update. Things seem to be going along nicely. I didn't confront her about OM contact, but instead, I told her that I've been feeling really antsy lately, and feeling a little jealous. I said I don't want her to start feeling pressured, but I want her to understand I've got some things going on that I need to work through. I marked the parts in DR about infidelity, with some emphasis on the part about The Unfaithful Person (this section points out the need to stop ALL contact with OP). I asked her to read it so she would understand if I seemed a little needy and clingy from time to time.
Since then, she seems to have moved back to our bed permanently (or at least indefinately). She commented about it, and I said indeed I'd noticed, and asked what it was about. She said that if she was really going to try on this, it was the least she could do. We've not been to therapy for a few weeks, and it's been good, cuz we've talked to each other, without waiting for C sessions. I pointed out that we still had a number of "homework" items to review, the list of "things we consider necessary to a Long Term R". She said she was busy at the time, but came to me later with one issue.... the first time she's opened this discussion. Her issue was "good, playful, and plentiful sex". Wow. Not that anything has happened, but that was the issue she brought up. On the down side she brought it up with a sort flip attitude (kind of "well OF COURSE this is important to a long term r. I'm not necessarily talking about OUR R, but ANY R requires this....") It's kind of the way she responds any time I ask about the items on the list. Whenever I ask "what will be happening in OR when you feel those needs are being met?", she always says "I don't know...", and dismisses it. Anyway, I found it interesting she opened that door.
No therapy for a few weeks. This had been interesting. When it was clear at the end of our last session that it would be a few weeks, I was pretty antsy. But it's been good. Lots of laughter, humor, fun. She's still distant, but I detect a conscious effort at distance on her part. If she's not directly thinking about it, we are friendly, and have a fun family R. Not a lot of physical closeness, but some, and more touching, but not intimate. I see, or maybe just feel, lots of small baby steps. I don't feel an approaching deadline.
I'm watching, and waiting, and doing more for me. Can't wait to see what happens next.
'tis the season of the anniversary of "The Bomb". Sorry this is long, but I've not written much in a while, and I'm feeling strange... It's tough to say exactly when the bomb fell in my case, and in retrospect I should have seen it coming for months. On 12/28, I found the first incriminating email on my computer while we were away on a family ski holiday. I talked about how good a kisser he was. I challenged her with it, she said he was a "good friend". I resolved to check her home computer when we got home, but didn't have a chance till 1/3. In the mean time, we agreed that we needed to see a counselor together. I made an appointment, in a panic, on 1/2.
1/3 I snooped in her email on her home computer. Still, to this day, I'm utterly amazed that she seems to never have learned the value of a delete key. It was all there. All the proof of the affairs, xxx rated stuff. I decided to copy it all to and store it off line somewhere. I decided not to confront her until we started therapy, and then only under advice from the counselor. That didn't happen... I was a very bad snoop. I didn't cover my tracks very well. Like, I left her email open to one of the incriminating emails, while having it sorted to show all mail from a particular individual. Oops. I guess the phone rang, or something like that, and I walked away. Not that I was in the most calm, collected mental state at the moment. Anyway, she found the computer like that, and she came clean on all of it.... the affairs, the partying, she new friends...... and that she wanted a divorce.
To this day, I constantly wonder where I would be if I had never been caught, or if I had never snooped. It always seems to me that she demanded a divorce in a knee-jerk reaction to the shame and embarrassment of being caught. Then, out of some dumb, stupid pride never backed down, and worked hard through the following months convincing herself that was what she wanted. Of course, with the complete support of her lover, her friends in the SSW, her other misguided and misinformed friends, and finally, her/our therapist. In this regard, it's amazing how closely she fits Michele's descriptions in the first chapter of DR. Quite possibly she recognized herself in those descriptions when I gave her that first chapter, and maybe it was one of the reasons she's decided to slow down... Anyway, it seems to me that it is those months spent convincing herself and being convinced by others that I have been battling in this reconciliation effort. I bet if I was to re-read her email with the OM, I'd see a trend that traced the progression of the affair from starting as a fun fling, through a fond support and like thinking, to a firm support of her against me (with gentle pressure toward what he wants), to plans to "be together some day". Gag me, I won't do that!
I don't know where we are now, except by measuring against the past. The farther out I cast my measurement, the better things look. For example, in the mid-summer, we had little if any contact. I was simply in the way of her life with her new friends and lover. By Sept she had hired a lawyer who demanded I hire my own so they could "proceed with negotiations". October brought a lot to a head, and she agreed -- in fact suggested -- to try to reconcile. She said she'd give it three months, stop seeing OM and we entered couples therapy. November she came back to our bed (still no sex yet, but this is still a big step to me). December, she suggested we visit my family (first time since "the bomb") and we did for a pre-christmas. January...... Well, we have a "deadline" of 1/15 that she set back in October, but that she's admitted is more a guideline that a deadline. Therapy seems to be going well... She's not fully satisfied with it, nor am I, both for different reasons, and I think that shows we are both growing from it and have farther to go. The therapist said she sees progress. She says she thinks we are months away from resolution, but that we've also come a long way. We see her again on Thursday. That will be only the second time in about 7 weeks, and we've been making progress in spite of that.
She still has some "social" contact with OM, and has recently admitted that. By social, I mean they are part of a larger group where they are sometimes both in attendance. I think her willingness to admit contact is good. Shows she trusts/respects me enough not to hide contact from me. I don't think she yet completely understands how any contact with him at least slows our progress, but she seems to understand that I don't like it, and any contact is a sign of further disrespect for me, and she knows THAT is not good for us.
Some time ago, I mentioned somewhere that this process seems to be kind of like stopping a huge ship and turning it around. It doesn't happen in an instant. I don't feel we have turned around yet, but we have really slowed down from the course of full speed ahead to divorce. With the new year, I hope we will soon be ready to change the course.
Just an update to let you all know I'm still here, and things are still moving along. Thanks to all, and a Happy and Healthy New Year!!!
Zebra, It is always nice to see things turning around. I really don't have any advice to say do this or that. My H and I were separated for 3 months. He was SOOOO indifferent about our relationship. It just hurt me soooo much. We went to this weekend. Retrouvaille.org it turned things around for us.. He went from indifferent to moving back in and we have felt closer then ever in our marriage. i am not sure whether I am suppose to tell you here to try something other then DB but I feel anything that may work we should let each other know about it. There is info on the website about it so if she may go you can't loose anything by going to the program you can gain a whole a lot.
I just read a lot of your stuff, and there seems to be no follow-up to your Retrouvaille weekend. Seems like it worked well!!
I've often thought of Retrouvaille, but not for a while... Arnold once suggested to me that I also check out John Gottman's clinic. But, the presence of an active PA and other things made me feel that she would have no interest. But now, in the current climate, it might work. The biggest problem seems to be that she is still struggling with issues like "I love you but I'm not IN love with you", and the allure of the "romance" and "excitement" she found in the affair with the OM and her "single" lifestyle with all her new divorced and divorcing friends.
How did you approach your H with the idea? I'm a little apprehensive about approaching it. It was a big step just to get into Couples therapy. I don't want to overwhelm her. I've also felt a bit pressured by her "deadline". (tho that was breached yesterday when we made our next couples therapy appointment for January 17th ) I like the "chicken" approach of leaving a brochure laying about, but I can't seem to find one. Maybe I could print out things from the website...
Anyway, how did it go? What's it really like? How is the follow-up? Any thoughts or sharing of experience would help...
The "deadline" of Jan 15 has come and passed. She's still here. Sometimes we're close, sometimes we drift apart. We seem to "bounce" off each other -- when things start to look like they are going well, suddenly, she withdraws and distances. Long ago, I noticed similar behavior at times I knew she was "seeing" the OM regularly, and I started to think of it as an OM hangover. Well, two weeks ago, and then again at the beginning of this week when she started on one of those distancing routines again, I broke down and drove by his house. Sure enough, each time there was her car... My sensing an OM hangover was right on the mark.
So, now, I truly believe the PA has been scaled back to an EA, though it could reignite any minute, if she decides to stop "trying to work on" our marriage. I believe this kind of thing has been going on the whole time she's been trying, he being among her primary support while she struggles through "trying". Talk about 10 steps forward, 9 steps back, and trying to put our a fire with gasoline.
So, I want to confront this OM contact, and put a stop to it. She's said she won't see him. She's said she'll work on the marriage. I don't believe she can do that effectively while still in contact with him, nor can she fully allow herself to open up to me and trust me as long as she continues to act untrustworthy and lie herself. I'd love anyone's thoughts on the pros and cons of a confrontation, and if you think it's a good idea, suggestions on how. I'm still nowhere close to throwing in the towel, and I don't think she's fully convinced herself yet either. I don't want to push her to OM or to divorce court. Any ideas?
. We did good. No upset, and we pretty much agreed on points. I even mentioned that at some point "we would be discussing the affair, to better learn how her needs went unfulfilled, and to avoid that happening in the future". C liked that one. The other big homework was Acting as if... For her it was acting as if she wanted to be in the marriage, wanted to come home. For me, it was to act as if we respected each other fully. Went well. In fact, W said she had an generally awful work week but home was pleasant and peaceful.
) I like the "chicken" approach of leaving a brochure laying about, but I can't seem to find one. Maybe I could print out things from the website...