I don't think PhotoGuy is a troll, just in deep denial. Though maybe he is just one of those guys who was born to be a bachelor. He hasn't mentioned any previous marriages and evidently he didn't enter into this one until he was in his forties. His thinking does remind me somewhat of some of my H's rationalizations so I don't find his posts unauthentic.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
As you probably know, I tend to focus on FOO issues, believing that until those that are affecting your current behavior are identified, selecting the right “remedy” may be hit or miss. I still firmly believe there is a lot more in your past that is affecting you than you think. Without a counselor, it is difficult to see (otherwise you would do something about it, right?) Karen’s post put another thought into my mind – maybe the things that cause you to shut down when intimacy comes up also causes you to focus more on yourself, to inhibit your empathy to some degree.
Does it even occur to you how your W feels about the lack of affection, or do you only think about it when she brings it up? You say your relations are good in all other aspects, but does she feel this way too, or is that just your viewpoint.
It could also be that she is not fully aware of all the areas in which she is wanting? Maybe she has fell into the suffering victim role for years and has recently come to realize how much she is missing. So she could have lots of other complaints about your marriage that she has not fully expressed. My point is in wondering whether there is a bigger pattern at play, though it may be subtle.
Schnarch gives an example of an angry woman (Audrey I think) who was continuing the role of perpetrator toward her H that her mother played against her. Your actions toward your W could be the same as what I could envision you suffered as a child at the hands of your parents – emotional deprivation. This is not to say you do this out of spite or anger, but more as a protective mechanism, but I think you still do it. In this way I think you could be a “perpetrator” toward your W.
I also get the feeling you are not taking the time to really think through some of your responses to these types of questions.
No Problem. I do not have feeling of abandonment. I don't even recall it bothering me at the time. I don't remember any stress having to cook or anything. Maybe I did, but wouldn't I remember that?
I don’t think you would recall feelings of abandonment bothering you. That is the whole purpose to shutting down. Lil’s thread on “Safety: The Rosetta Stone…” explains this very nicely. If you do have uncomfortable feelings from your childhood, I am guessing they are pretty deeply buried. You will need to think long and hard about this and really take yourself back to those times. A counselor will help with this.
I have to admit the troll thought crossed my mind, too, but I think we have to assume he is on the level until evidence appears otherwise.
Also, ladies, as much as I want to let him know exactly how much his wife is hurting, what I want EVEN MORE is to understand what is going on in his head. So, to concur with NHT, let's not run him off by heaping even more guilt on his head. I think he already feels bad... the fact that he came here and walked out of the bushes into the clearing where we could grill him with questions shows desperation and guts, too.
Photo, please address some of the specific questions we have asked, and several of us have mentioned the madonna/whore concept-- that you marry the madonna, but you can't have sex with her. As you can tell we are all ears, metaphorically speaking.
I think it's a bit premature to start using the "troll" word with this guy. Although I understand where you are coming from.
If Photoguy is being on the up and up with us....then being called a troll is likely to make him feel unwelcome. If he's not being on the up and up...that will come out in further posts.
I think he's being honest with us, that's just my gut speaking though (I can always be wrong). What he's talking about just sounds oh-so-familiar to me right now with what my H and I are going through.
I can't pinpoint exactly why, but your post and Mojo's almost sounded angry at him when I read them. Like I said, I'm not sure why....that's just the tone that came across to me. I'm sure that probably has something to do with the fact that all of us HDW's on here....know what his W is going through and how much pain she's been put through. We just need to be careful that we don't take our frustrations on our own H's on Photoguy. He is here for help afterall.
Photoguy, I find your confessions about why you might stray from your marriage quite in contrast to my thinking. I believe that most of us men on this board would stray because we are NOT haveing sex with our spouse. Indeed, your situation is precisely why your W could possibly stray. Instead, she is leaving.
Also in contrast, I have sexual fantasies about my W. Is this normal? Perhaps it is the wanting what we do not have? Same reason you only fantasize about other women. I too look at other women but want to take those feelings of arousal to bed with W rather than act on them with another woman. Nonetheless, my greatests arousal revolves around my W.
All this makes your sitch that much more of a quandry. You are a HD man with your fantasies, a LD man with your W. You want, but only from those from whom you cannot get.
Your sitch also reminds me of something I posted a while ago here ... from a book called "Reclaiming Healthy Sexual Energy." The guy in question "Kenneth" was aroused by the very act and process of yearning for women who weren't available. It was the seeking and yearning itself that were arousing to him. ONLY unavailable women aroused him. Here's the quote from the book that was on my thread:
Quote: When Kenneth was about 16, he discovered pornographic magazines in the garbage dump. He would go out at night searching through the trash and bring them home... The moment he decided to go to the dump, the sexual arousal was underway ...
The cross-wiring that motivated his addiction was searching for love from a woman who would not be available to him. In the beginning it was women in pictures. It moved on to searching for prostitutes at times when they would NOT be on the street, and finally to "love" relationships with women who could not give themselves to him for various reasons.
When a woman did respond sexually to him, even if he paid for it, he felt as if he were receiving the greatest loving possible. When he completed the exchange and went home, however, he was fully aware that he had not been loved at all.
So Kenneth's use of porn was designed unconsciously to FAIL at achieving satisfaction in a relationship. And-- oh so ironically-- it was the very fact of being frustrated that constituted his internal sexual life. IOW he felt most authentically himself when he was sexually frustrated.
According to this example the most appealing thing about the woman in the magazine or up on the screen, or someone else's wife is precisely that she IS in the magazine or on the internet or married to someone else and NOT right here in the room (like your wife is).
Why might a guy fantasize about someone else's wife when there is a warm naked woman in the house who wants him? It is the unavailability that creates the sexual charge-- it is the need to SEARCH for love/sex that is part of the ritual of arousal, the search that reaches a climax (as it were) when it ends in frustration.
The "wanting what you cannot have" fuels arousal; whereas the person you CAN have does not create that charge because frustration is not part of the equation.
Quote: You want, but only from those from whom you cannot get.
How does this make him any different from any HD person on this BB? I think this statement is the heart of my theory that HD and LD are just two sides of the same coin. I mean what is the essential difference between a man who stays married to a woman who he doesn't want to have sex with for 5 years and fantasizes about a different/better sexual relationship and a man who stays married to a woman who doesn't want to have sex with him for 5 years and fantasizes about a different/better sexual relationship?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Lass, The reason my trollometer is going crazy is because he is not exhibiting any sort of reaction to the consequences of his behavior. He STILL is going on about wanting all these other women, even as his wife (whom he proposes to love) has walked out on him. Truly, I have thought very little about his wife and have not been 'putting myself in her place'...I'm mostly reacting to his non-reaction over what his actions have done to his life.
A person who truly wanted HELP, as his post proclaims, would presumably be taking these suggestions to heart and doing something to salvage his sinking M. Instead, I read post after post where he re-identifies his position. Almost like a troll would who realized that his inflammatory words were getting a rise out of people.
Photo, if you are not a troll please forgive me. If you are for real, run--not walk--to the nearest counselor and get help for your problems. You only have one life to live.
Mojo, something like your thought occurred to me, too... all of us, whichever side we are on, are mired in frustration. The state of being frustrated, i.e. "wanting what we cannot have," feels natural to us. My "Safety" thread addresses some of the dynamics of how we get to be this way.
This may be a slight difference: It's not that "Kenneth" wants what he cannot have... yeah, in that way, he's like all of us here.
It's that he wants ONLY what he cannot have, and DOES NOT WANT the sex that's readily available from a willing partner. It is the fact that the object of desire is unavailable that is the turn-on.
This is the key to Kenneth (don't know if it applies to Photo or not):
Quote: IOW he felt most authentically himself when he was sexually frustrated.
Quote: It's that he wants ONLY what he cannot have, and DOES NOT WANT the sex that's readily available from a willing partner.
Well, just to be argumentative , this part is true for most HD on this BB too. We could all easily find willing sexual partners but we stay with a partner who is an unwilling (to whatever extent) sexual partner for a variety of lame to excellent reasons. I mean, you personally LP, could end your current relationship tomorrow morning, go on AdultFriendFinder tomorrow afternoon and be having sex with a willing partner by tomorrow night. So what's stopping you? My theory is that if you make a list of all the reasons why you don't, that list would be the synthesis of all the ways in which you are LD yourself or at least a list of all the things for which you are more HD than sex. Anyone for whom sex was truly one of the top things they valued in life would never find themselves on this BB.
Quote: It is the fact that the object of desire is unavailable that is the turn-on.
Okay, that is a difference, but really it is quite minor if you consider the question that we HD folks frequently ask ourselves which is "Why do I want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me?". I think there almost has to be some essential low self-esteem involved in either case.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
, this part is true for most HD on this BB too. We could all easily find willing sexual partners but we stay with a partner who is an unwilling (to whatever extent) sexual partner for a variety of lame to excellent reasons. I mean, you personally LP, could end your current relationship tomorrow morning, go on AdultFriendFinder tomorrow afternoon and be having sex with a willing partner by tomorrow night. So what's stopping you? My theory is that if you make a list of all the reasons why you don't, that list would be the synthesis of all the ways in which you are LD yourself or at least a list of all the things for which you are more HD than sex. Anyone for whom sex was truly one of the top things they valued in life would never find themselves on this BB.