Now a number of hours after that R talk, I have to say I do feel a bit better. I swear I wish W would R and/or A talk more often - that simple fact is contributing a lot to my growing anger and hostility. I now feel better able to cope and emotionally where I was a few weeks ago... which would be better than where I was, say, yesterday.
My last post was rather short (for me), because I typed it while trying to get ready to go meet my family for my bday dinner. One thing W said shortly after our talk was that after this talk, she wasn't going to feel comfortable coming - so, I guess I got my "wish". I did tell her that I honestly wasn't going to feel comfortable with her coming even before the talk, so that was fine. Both of us said this matter of factly. So, on the drive up alone (well, with D2s), I thought of a number of things from the convo I wanted to journal.
* Given that she now knows I snooped, she feels that she can't ever know if I'm operating off of "priveleged information" that I wouldn't have if I hadn't invaded her privacy, and that if things go slightly sour down the road somewhere, how's she going to know I won't go digging again. My counter was that if I'd never snooped, I never would have known about the A, and our marriage would have been certainly doomed. I also will say (although I didn't during this convo) that I feel 100% justified in having snooped, but only to the extent to discover the A - I wish it didn't quickly become the obsession/addiction that it did. I went on to validate her feeling, but point out that if we work on things correctly, I won't have to go digging, and there also won't be such a risk of another A. [I still think back to when she told me she wasn't going to change any passwords, look for installed keyloggers, etc etc etc. Now, she's changed every password she possibly can, and has locked down her laptop to such an extent that is beyond even my comprehension (not through me trying to "hack" into it, but various things like my router even has problems identifying it).] * During the fight portion, I pointed out that I recognize and have been working on my passive-aggressive behavior, hence me pointing out my upset with her comment, rather than just taking it and taking it. This was probably okay, but what might have been stupid of me to bring up / point out was how I feel she has her own passive-aggressive behavior to deal with. She completely disagreed with me that she as any p-a behavior - I'll have to think about her reasoning, but she's displayed a lot of classic "symptoms" of this behavior. * She made a comment that she has two choices, and neither of them are an easy road: somewhat of a fresh start (ie. a divorce), or working on something that failed before (ie. our marriage). I pointed out that I hope she realizes I have the same exact choice. She needs to understand that I DO have a choice in this, and I'm currently choosing the marriage - and she needs to realize I can choose the other, and it will be MY choice. * She pointed out how I've "crushed her dreams" - that things she's tried to do, like work at Cirque du Soleil when it was in town, help out in disaster situations, etc. I've been negative about it. I validated and pointed out that it was because I was playing "protector", which was a role formed early on in our relationship. I admitted that I now understand this to be a form of control, and it is wrong. Her assertion was that she needed this early on, but she grew past the need. But, what I've witnessed in her communications with OM is the exact same $hit that went on in our early relationship - and it's this that will be to the detriment of their relationship, should they end up together. * I pointed out that throughout these few R/A talks we've had, she's made some ambiguous statements that I've had to read things into - that it wasn't until later that I realized the ambiguity and the fact I read more into them than was really there. The context of this was that I felt she wanted MC for no more than just to tell me things that would hurt me, but in a more mediated situation - not that she wanted to go to actually work on things. She told me I was wrong, and she would just feel most comfortable in front of an MC. * She pointed out how every time I've brought things up, they've seemed to be at the worst possible times. When I brought up things on d-day (5/1), it was right before her spring finals. When I brought them up, in my blow up on 7/3, it was right before she was flying back home for a major class presentation. To her, it seems I've purposefully timed things to cause maximum pain and inconvenience. If I did, it was so incredibly subconscious I can't even imagine. The first was because it was d-day, and I finally, after probably a good consecutive 12 hours of thought, decided I couldn't hold things in, regardless of the impact on her schoolwork - as I said then, "I'm sorry, but I feel our marriage is more important." The second time was simply due to a poorly timed emotional breakdown. We've had two other such talks, one was initiated by her in mid-May (while drunk), and the other was the one today. * In all of our talks, I've pointed out how we have built a very poor basis for communication - this time was no exception. She took the opportunity to point out that I keep saying this, but that communication is not the only issue. I validated her feelings, but pointed out that communication is still a BIG problem that we're going to have to figure out before we can work on most of those other things. * (Last one) I asked her a question that had been burning in my heart for quite a while. Asking this question caused me to have my first crying breakdown since around d-day, and it took me probably a good 5 minutes to just get out the question. If things had been so bad for so long, why did she have kids with me? Her answer was that things can be so much more clear in hindsight.
One last note/question - I find myself quoting things from my reading and conversations with IC that I probably shouldn't. It hasn't seemed to end up bad, so far, and I wish I could come up with some examples, but does anyone else find themselves doing this?
Not once during our talk today was there mention of OM - just the fact W is in an affair. I can't remember her ever comparing me to him - not in our talks and not in any of her communication with him. I know that outside of our talks, I've thought of all sorts of things I want to say and ask about him, but I'm not even tempted to during our talks, although I'm no longer specifically avoiding it. I'm also glad she doesn't mention him, either, for whatever reason. But, I do wonder how much she compares us, or if she literally has the two relationships compartmentalized to an extent where she is simply unhappy in one and happy in the other.
We hit on a discussion point regarding friendship / R maintenance. One of her examples was her trying to send me messages and open discussions on historical and political topics, since I told her I was actually interested in them, but lack the knowledge base she has. But, as she pointed out, I wouldn't respond in-the-moment, instead responding well later. This is going to forever be a problem, if it really is one. I don't read as f'ing fast as she does, and it takes some time for me to read, absorb, and come up with anything to say, for god's sake. But, after validating, my counter was that I am sometimes busy and can't take the time to read and answer right then. Her counter to that was that was exactly the problem - you have to react / communicate in-the-moment for it to be valuable communication going toward maintaining a relationship. I call BS on that, a bit, but whatever.
Another of her points was that I am an introvert, and as such think more about myself than others. Can't say I agree with this, except in the example she came up with. She pointed out how I rarely call home to let her know I'm okay and such. I think this is a Mars / Venus thing (I need to read that book), more than an introvert / extrovert thing. So, tonight, I called her when we got to the restaurant (because it was raining), and I called her when I was heading home. I have to admit, I triply have avoided calling her when I'm on my way home, because I didn't want to give her time to finish up her convos with OM and make as if none of that was going on - ie. catch her in the act. Well, guess what, I did catch her on the phone with him on Thursday night - and I feel that most of her reasoning in bringing this up was due to that right there. Regardless, for now I will call her in any non-normal situations. Hell, I've IM'd her "heading home" messages for God knows how long, and I still do.
Thanks Jokerman - that's about how I've felt and figured. It's how she deals with a lot of emotional things in life. But, what ends up happening is she buries things and they eat away at her soul, making her into the relatively unstable person she can be sometimes.... until she compartmentalizes everything again. It's like she's several powder kegs ready to blow. In fact, she likened my snooping to her being raped at an early age - I think she pulled that one out to be a little (or a lot) extreme. I don't think she likens her affair, with the betrayal of trust and continued deceipt involved, to any such thing - I know I don't - I liken it to an affair involving betrayal of trust and continued deceipt. That's bad enough, in my opinion. My snooping is bad enough on its own, without having to be compared to being raped.
I've been slowly trimming my goatee shorter, just as a change. I've kept the darn thing mostly because W didn't want me to get rid of it - I've had it since well before I met her. After having our D2s for a while, I've kept it for them, because they like the fuzziness. But, I've been progressively trimming it shorter and shorter over the last three weeks or so. I asked for a new beard trimmer from my mom for my bday, and got it. Today, I trimmed my goatee one step shy of that "unshaven" look. Until today, W hadn't noticed I was trimming it short - today she noticed for sure. She asked if I was shaving it off, and I'm not planning on doing so, right now. After shaving the rest of my face, W said "I think you went too short." I don't really plan on keeping it this way, but it does make me look a bit younger - I just answered, "Well, I like it." I've been so blasted concerned about how she feels about my appearance, in the past. Now, I still do care, but mostly just in the sense that she is some other person, and I care about my appearance. I've been feeling better and better about my appearance, and taking care of it, that I don't feel I need her validation anymore. Thinking back, that's not something that started with DB'ing, but something that's been going on for some time.
My appearance when I met W: Long hair (in a ponytail), goatee, contacts, very casual clothing. I didn't have a very much self-confidence in my appearance. I cut my long hair short about 1.25 yr ago, after having it for over 15 years (mainly due to the bother it was after having kids). I switched to glasses a short time after that - I'd been wanting to, part time, but my eye doctor pretty much made me. I've since gotten my hair style to where I really like it. I'm slimming down, after having put on "married with children" pounds. I'm much more conscious of the clothing I'm wearing (not just tshirt and jeans/shorts all the time, anymore). I'm now wearing cologne (a DB thing) and actually enjoy smelling a bit nice. I feel better about my appearance than I have in years... perhaps ever. Too bad W is missing out on this self-image confidence.
I think Jokerman has it right on ! W lives in fantasy world of OM. She has no real history with him, idealizes him (even to the extent of "adopting" to wanting to be in his profession etc...) and probably believes he is "perfect" for her. On the other end is your R.. long history with life's ups and downs. So she digs up from the past and uses any and all negatives whether real or imagined she can think of to keep the present "reality" of your R from encroaching upon her fantasy with OM.. of course she has no idea what she is doing.. no self recognition at all and can barely notice your changes especially the positive ones (whether physical or behavioral). My guess is her mind is consumed by OM thoughts and the fantasy so it is extremely difficult if not impossible for her to see or feel much else. Your description of the wedding reception was quite interesting btw.. I think if I were there I would have phoned her ! " Hello, W.. um would you mind not SMSing OM while we are in public together ?" Interesting also to think about what sort of emotional things being at a wedding with you did to her ?
I am trying to recall.. did you say that OM was single or M ? I am sort of just thinking ahead..
****what ends up happening is she buries things and they eat away at her soul
She has to deal with these issues. If she cannot deal with them, she cannot deal with any other problems.
****In fact, she likened my snooping to her being raped at an early age
OUCH. I feel of both of you. I feel sorry for her that she had to go through that. I'm also sorry that she took her pain out on you and associated it with you.
Don't take that personally. Sometimes people full of pain just lash out.
----- My gut feeling is that she still has MAJOR issues with the rape. You are caught in the middle.
Hate and love are on the complete ends of the spectrum, but it's the one's we love that we hurt the most.
She has never fully healed (if one can do so) from this traumatic experience and therefore she cannot deal with other issues, such as marital problems.
Everything you both say I've already realized - but, it's good to hear someone else validate my thinking, so thanks. W has definitely been in a fantasy land, and she's been digging herself deeper and deeper since d-day. I know she digs up all she can to justify her actions and this A - like comparing my actions to her rape. I think this convo made me realize I AM detaching - the comparison hurt, but not like it would have not that long ago, and the impact of her using that comparison has gone. I think it's not so much detaching that I've been having a problem with, but instead building anger and frustration. The only thing that helped there was this convo. All in all, I'm actually doing better now than I have been for the last several weeks.
JM, my W definitely does have a lot of issues she's going to have to deal with, if she wants any of her intimate relationships to work. I certainly have my stuff to work on, but boy does W have some baggage to work through. I do hope her sessions with an IC work out, but I selfishly hope her IC is pro-marriage. Besides the rape, she has some other really bad things in her past - I won't mention exactly what, but they are some doosies. The bad thing is OM apparently shares a lot of similar "bad things", so provides a lot of sympathy and understanding. Do I know these things to be true? No, but they might as well be for how they've helped W and OM develop an intimate relationship. But, like I've said before, they wrap themselves up in this shared pain, basing their relationship on it - I can't see how this does anything but guarantee failure... not to mention damaged psyches of our girls if she ends up with custody living with OM.
To answer Tom's question, OM is married, but in process of getting a divorce (supposedly). I know a surprising amount about him and all this, just not about the A until very late in the game. I don't know his W at all, but have a very bad picture of her painted by the 3rd hand accounts from my W. Lord knows what she's really like. I know I've thought about contacting her and telling her about the A, giving her ammunition in their D - but, there are too many bad things that could come of that, negatively impacting my chances to save my M.
I'm probably seeing things that aren't really there, or reading too much into others, but it seems like W has been ever so slightly closer to me today. She slept closer to me in bed, rather than on the far edge like she's been doing. She didn't avoid me physically like she's been doing - like not squeezing by me if we pass by each other in the house. She sat with me and the girls for all of before-bed storytime, whereas she usually goes down after she's read a couple of books (then, I read a bunch and put the girls to bed).
**** I think it's not so much detaching that I've been having a problem with, but instead building anger and frustration.
Others can attest to this to. You cannot do this if you want your wife back. If others read RC situation, please advise him. I can't.
All I can tell you RC is that I came back to my wife because she was gentle, loving and supportive. She was not angry or pushy or needy.
****Besides the rape, she has some other really bad things in her past
Well I can empathize. For her sake and yours I hope she finds the answers and works through this. The good news is maybe this is what she needs to finally work through her "issues". If this brings her to a point to cope with the past and move on, your marriage will be so much better. Even better than your honeymoon.
Keep the faith.
****OM apparently shares a lot of similar "bad things", so provides a lot of sympathy and understanding.
Sorry. That's not a good thing. My dad divorced my mom because his OW he had. They will sit there and have a pity party. That is not good for her mental health or your marriage. Sorry.
****I can't see how this does anything but guarantee failure
You got that right.
****not to mention damaged psyches of our girls if she ends up with custody living with OM
You can't already be thinking about defeat. This war is not over!! Fight for this RC you girls deserve you to fight for this.
****She didn't avoid me physically like she's been doing
That's a good thing.
****then, I read a bunch and put the girls to bed
You're a good daddy. Focus on keep on being a good daddy and a good man. Focus on yourself and the rest, good or bad, will fall into place.
Not sure if this helped. Hang in there RC. You sound like a well grounded man and a good man and a good dad/
Interesting also to think about what sort of emotional things being at a wedding with you did to her ?