Quote: IF it's both of your money to spend, then she has the right to spend it.
I'm not sure, on this one, and I doubt I can convey enough of our financial situation to solicit advice. I'm 75% that it's mine to do with as I see fit, as it was very clearly *my* overpayment of taxes that resulted in the crazy refund. I'm 15% that she should get some of it, as she did have *some* income during 2005, although *very* little. I'm 10% feeling of guilt that she just doesn't really have her own (legit) spending money. For the most part, our finances have always been separate. We have three checking accounts - one is mine, on which she is not a signer (more out of laziness than unwillingness to add her); another is hers, on which I am a signer (I've never used it); the last is one out of which our 2nd mortgage and property taxes are paid, for which I'm the only contributor, but we are both signers. Since the money is in that last account, she actually has full access to it, right now, and could take some out; although I'd be mighty peeved if she did without telling me, since I manage the account. In fact, I generally manage most of our bills, and now most of our finances... which is somewhat one of the pain points of our R. I've only ever managed the money I've earned, and never directly managed the money she earns. For a short while - about 6 months, three years ago - she paid me "rent" to help cover rent/mortgage and utilities. The amount was a number I came up with, but she never disagreed or complained about. Other than that, her financial contribution to our life was buying the groceries - I paid everything else. The problem with this particular money is who can say how much is hers and how much is mine? It's a tax refund - money back from the gubment - neither of us necessarily contributed to it directly, right? But, like I said, it was my overpayment of taxes that resulted in the refund, so I feel it's at least mine to manage, if not spend. We'd even discussed how to use the money, and *she* suggested I use it to open investments (which was my plan, until d-day, and I figured I should hold onto what money I've got, in case I need to spend it on an attorney). You know what... let me restate how I feel - I feel 100% that it is mine to do with as I see fit (although at least letting her know since we're supposed to be partners), with a 50/50 indecision on "giving" her some out of a feeling of guilt.
I'll lay out some other history... W wanted to be a SAH mom for the first year of our girls' lives, so I took a tough look at how much money we/I had saved up, and determined we could do it... for JUST a year... and it would suck savings completely dry... and she'd HAVE to get a job after that year. That savings, btw, was entirely from a hefty bonus I get each year, which I had just gotten when our girls were born. So, we hit the end of that year, and W tries to get her old job back - didn't happen. She then starts to look for another job and is finding crap. She doesn't have a degree, which in the dotcom age wasn't such a problem, but now was turning out to be. So, we decide to ask her dad to help put her through what she had left in college. But, we couldn't make the day-to-day on just my salary, so we had to also ask him for supplemental money. We were fairly convincing, and he agreed, with the "supplemental" coming in the form of a credit card. This was just over a year ago. In the meantime, I've gotten another bonus and this tax refund came in, so we've got a good deal of money saved up. Now, stepping back, I've definitely been controlling of our "lifestyle" spending - we live a pretty good lifestyle, and occasionally it takes its toll on our finances, regardless of my "controlling". Since d-day, I've dropped concern over how much we're spending... and it's taking a toll from hell on our savings.
I'll post a followup about W's schooling and where this has come into play with our R and the A.
Certainly, part of my "control" of our finances is that controlling nature many of us share. But, regardless of how poorly we've communicated on money issues, I will not give up primary control of finances - at least, not from a day-to-day expense standpoint. W has had problems dealing with day-to-day expenses in the past, and gladly gave me that control, plus having me figure out all budget type items. But, then she gets angry because she feels I control it too tightly. I do think it comes down to how we've communicated on money issues, not the fact that I control our day-to-day finances. I just never realized the true impact of that poor communication until d-day.
W has about another year of school left before getting a bachelors in History (with maybe a double degree in Anthropology). After that, she's planning on going to law school. Her original dream was to work in the area of online culture, possibly assisting museums in building their online presence. At some point, one of her professors caused her think about going into law. Beyond her original dream, she wanted to be in a position to help make a change in the world - she started to see law as this avenue. Also, she came to realize that the road to her dream was a long, arduous, and expensive one - she'd have to get a doctorate. But, the road to becoming an attorney was quite a bit shorter, and she started to realize she had a mind and interest for law. The first I heard of this was when she sent me an instant message, right around the time I now know the OA to have started, where OM was trying to convince her to go into law (he's a lawyer - a damn unethical one, if you ask me). So, I forever connect her decision with OM. I was already starting to become resentful of their relationship, so I was immediately opposed to the idea of her going into law. But, more rationally, I felt she was giving up her dream - I didn't consider the path to law any less arduous than her previous path. I also felt she was doing something she has done MANY times in her past - making sudden and dramatic changes in career. But, even though I was against it, I didn't make too many negative statements, because I wanted to support her in whatever decision she made. I did voice the few rational concerns I came up with, but I mainly voiced concern over what impact this would have to her having time with the family, given that she'd also have crazy hours as a beginning attorney.
So, over time, she's gotten more and more ingrained in this idea of going to law school and becoming an attorney. I don't deny she'll make a damn fine attorney, and I've actually bought into the idea. Lord knows it would be a good influx of cash for the family - I may even end up not being the primary breadwinner, which I think might suit me just fine. At some point, I half jokingly said "When you're making the big bucks, I still get to control the finances, right?" I now realize it was a stupid thing to have said, and wish I hadn't. I don't know how much that has stuck in her mind, but it's probably just a drop in the bucket. Anyway, as she's gotten ingrained in this idea, she's gotten closer and closer to OM, with him having both a background in law, and since she and he share MANY of the same political views. During her first few semesters of class (she took some at-home classes while being a SAH mom), I helped a lot with her work. I tried to mentor her in math, her nemesis; I proofread her papers, when she asked for help; I did just about anything I could to help her with her homework, but usually only when asked (which was often enough). Quite suddenly, she stopped asking me for help. At the time, I had a lot of other stuff going on, so it was a welcome relief. I very clearly saw that she was getting that help from OM, but due to my selfish thoughts of relief, it didn't start bugging me until after one semester of it. My other stuff dried up, and I found myself quite idle, depressed, lonely, and just generally feeling neglected by W. Several times, I pointed out that I was quite willing to help with any schoolwork she might have. She essentially just said "okay", but continued using OM's help instead. This grew my resentment and therefore my distancing of myself from W... which probably just ended up feeding the A. ... More thoughts along this line, next.
Sorry for the many and long posts - since W is away, have had a bit of time and needed to dump/journal...
I've given much thought to what actions (or inactions) of mine contributed to the A. I had come to the conclusion that neglect had a big part to do with it. But, looking back over the past year - back to just prior to the A - I didn't start neglecting W quite so much until I had started distancing myself from her due to resentment over her R with OM. I do still think the neglect paid a part in it, but not such a major one, now. It probably was a cycle that fed upon itself, but I don't think it was the trigger. I think, before then, I had lost the ability to truly listen to W. I had gotten so wrapped up in my own concerns and interests, and W had started diving hardcore into politics at a level I don't usually concern myself with, plus I had started ignoring current events she would generally bring up, to the point that I just couldn't focus on what she was talking about or provide meaningful feedback. She eventually found what she needed with OM. He provided that meaningful conversation that I wasn't. She would still, occasionally, try to talk to me about things; and, we'd have brief conversations (not bad, not meaningless, just brief). But, I very rarely would initiate these sorts of conversations. I *did* bring up topics of interest to me, and you know what? Now thinking back, I generally got the same response from her that she was getting from me - brief, just "okay" conversations, with mostly a lack of interest in what I was talking about. I think we just got out of sync with our external-to-family interests. But, this doesn't have a to be detrimental to a marriage, dammit! So, I think another one of the contributing factors along these lines was that we had virtually no social life. We moved out to the burbs, away from most of our old friends, and rarely were able to get them to come out to see us. W tried to maintain at least a couple of close female friendships from that group of friends, but it just wasn't happening. I think that W used to get what she needed in regards to conversation and social interaction from coworkers and friends - now she had no coworkers and few friends. Since she's been going to school, she's been at home, alone, most of the time, with primarily time for only online friendships. Along comes this close online friendship with soon-to-be-OM, and bingo. …. All conjecture on my part, and I'm not sure what I could have done about it by changing myself. Perhaps I could have ensured more interaction with our friends, not leaving planning of such things to W. The easy answer is that I could have boned up on everything that W was interested in talking about, but I tried that to some extent, and it takes too much of my energy to do so, such that I end up sacrificing my own interests. I just don't know on this one, and don't think I'll truly figure it out until I can talk R with W, and now isn't that time.
Now, we're talking about trading off weeks to go hang out with our old friends on Wednesday nights, when they all go out together. Although it was mostly W's idea (copying some of those friends that have kids) to do the trade-off, I'm embracing it as my own. While W is doing yoga on Wednesday nights, this hasn't come to fruition, but she should be switching to a different class soon enough, and I fully intend on taking advantage of it, even if she doesn't. And, if she does, then I do hope that she'll find some of that much desired interaction, and see that she didn't need OM for it - I don't expect that to happen, but I can always hope.
I think I just screwed up a bit - perhaps more than a bit. We're out of town for 4th of July, and W is heading back home on the 4th b/c (she says) she has a test on the 5th. I've been keeping this crap inside of me about "all I know" - the various things I learned while snooping. I've been heavily suspicious of her early return home, and tonight, after a couple of drinks, everything blew up... as much as they can "blow up" for someone named "RemainCalm". I was calm enough after my stupid start. The utterly STUPID part of it all was my timing - it was just before her dad (three sheets to the wind) went to bed, and he was slightly within earshot. I know he saw us talking, if not heard most words. The talk itself was very much like d-day. I have that "God, I'm not going to sleep for days" feeling. I have no idea if her dad is going to go anywhere with what he saw or heard - I'm half planning on heading it off at the pass and just talking to W's parents about things not being so hunky dory. As I told W tonight, I won't lie to my family or hers, but I won't tell them what's going on. At most I am going to tell them tomorrow that we are working on things, and that if they are concerned, they have every right to be, and I appreciate it, but this has to be between her and me, right now. But, W will have first crack at it as her dad takes her to the airport early early in the morning. No telling what she might say - am just going to assume/act as if she tells him nothing, or at most the same - I actually hope in this particular case that he says nothing to her first (her parents are usually very non-interference).
I need to journal some of our talk before I forget it. I started with heavily-implied accusation (stupid stupid) that she had plans on her returnhome. I told her I had read her email for most of May. I told her I knew a lot of things that were weighing heavily on me, and I didn't care to dredge them all up, but most recently I knew she'd met him on her archeology trip. She has proven to admit to everything I know, so far, and this was no different. I talked about my IC saying I needed to "lay some things on the table" before they blew up... and here we are. I reitterated that I want to work on the marriage, but that as long as the A continues, she will not be able to do so - included that I had talked to an MC and he said this. I talked (yeah, guess what, I did most of the talking) about working on myself, being genuinely happy if she sees me smiling, being so incredibly sorry for the timing of this, being in so much pain by acting as if nothing is wrong in front of our families, so upset about he not being bblunt with me about something being wrong befor it got to this point.. can't remember much other misc stuff. I asked her what she wanted - she doesn't know. I said she's had 2 months to think about it (*idiot* pressuring her). She said she'd have an answer for me by Wednesday when I got back. I think I told her I didn't know if I wanted her to come to such a sudden decision (it was something that didn't neccessarily conflict withmy previous statement). I don't know where we're at, now. She needed to go to bed, I can't - we're in separate twin beds, b/c of the sleeping arrangement, but in same room, with D2s. Oh, she started to offer to change her ticket - hell, I should have taken her up on it, but I told her no, that I didn't want her to change her plans (stupid subtle wording, "allowing" her to see OM if that was her intention). I also talked a lot about me working on my flaws, about my recognition of controlling nature and not controlling anyone but myself, and about how I do want her happy but she doesn't need to go outside this family to have it.
I just can't help think that my starting off the whole thing with accusation was an extreme example of 'more of the same', and that if she's going to make a decision by Wednesday based on that, then I'm screwed.
The only thing I really have right now is that I used to accuse my W all the time...in my head. She was screwing this guy six different ways every time she left the house...in my head. The problem was that I figure I was only right a tiny bit of the time, and even then, what was I right about? Sure, I KNOW she was seeing him. She never tried very hard to hide that. What I didn't know was WHAT they did, or he motivations. I don't know if they were making out or she was trying to break things off. I don't know if she was making plans to marry him or tell him to f-off.
So, I am just cautioning you about accusing her when even if you are right, you still may be wrong. Anyway, as we all know, the affair is only one of many problems. Work on the other ones too.
As for the convo, well, it would probably have been best if you didn't have it, but then again, that's only if you could find a way to process your feelings and move on. If you were going to increasingly get angry and act out on these feelings, then maybe you did the right thing.
In the end, your marriage won't end over this one talk so don't beat yourself up too much. Just try to learn to manage your feelings/thoughts as best you can and move forward with your life.
Quote: The only thing I really have right now is that I used to accuse my W all the time...in my head.
Until now, I didn't tend to accuse my W in my head unless I had sufficient evidence to back it up. In fact, this whole outburst of accusation was very out of character for me. I know exactly what triggered it, and I hope to avoid that situation in the future. But, I still know enough that she's not telling him to f-off... not even close.
Quote: As for the convo, well, it would probably have been best if you didn't have it, but then again, that's only if you could find a way to process your feelings and move on. If you were going to increasingly get angry and act out on these feelings, then maybe you did the right thing.
I don't feel that me bringing up the A was the wrong thing to do - I think that the timing and my approach were way way wrong, though. Knowing how bad it went and what the trigger was, I think I can avoid these aspects in the future.
Quote: In the end, your marriage won't end over this one talk so don't beat yourself up too much. Just try to learn to manage your feelings/thoughts as best you can and move forward with your life.
You're right that the marriage hasn't ended. On her way home, W called me to say "Hello from San Antonio!" - this is after us not really having talked since the previous night, as she left early the next morning. I stupidly said somewhere in there "Why are you calling to tell me you're in San Antonio?" - idiot... her flight got diverted due to weather. She said "I just wanted to let you know my flight got diverted and I'm okay. I'll talk to you later. <click>" I called her cell several hours later and left a voicemail for her to call me when she made it home safely. She did, and voice and conversation were back to "normal". Everything after that has been as if we never had that talk. This has been the story of this whole ordeal. I hate to say it, but I almost (*almost*) wish she would have said *something*.
The whole panic after our talk nudged me into trying to contact a divorce attorney again. My main purpose being to not get caught flat-footed if W says some day that she's filing for divorce. After several attempts, I finally got ahold of the attorney today. We talked for about 30 minutes and she mostly confirmed all the things I thought and was concerned about (eg. what custody options there are, what kind of evidence do I need to maintain, etc.). Before talking to her, I was seriously considering the final ultimatum path (yeah, a little early in my DB'ing, but I compare that to the A having been going on for almost a year). After talking to her, I actually feel a little bit better and more committed to just sticking it out a bit longer. I don't feel I've gotten enough off my chest to prevent myself blowing up again - but, that was before I did actually blow up. Now having seen how badly that went, and knowing what triggered it, I feel fairly certain I can avoid that. The only thing I'm undecided on, right now, is whether or not to seek some form of MC again.
I don't think I mentioned the MC bit of our talk in too much detail. She said she thought I didn't want to go to MC, rather going to an IC - not exactly what I said, but I did say that going to an MC wasn't the right thing to do while the A is still going on. I said all that again, but said I had thought about us going to see an MC each individually. She said "however you want to do it - I'll do it". She sounds willing and accomodating, but I still feel her motives are not right in terms of us working on our marriage. She wants (and I want somewhat) to have someone basically as mediator while we discuss what issues we have with each other - as she puts it "out of respect for you" (as I said on the "Stupid things..." thread, thanks for the respect, W). But, I feel the things she wants to say are nothing but justifications for her actions - not in terms of "these are things about you that hurt me, and I want you to change them so that we can stay together." I know I probably shouldn't try to read her mind, but a lot of what she says and does tells me something other than she's willing to work on anything.
Saw my IC today - last time was about a month ago, due to each of our travel/vacation schedules. I think that I feel worse each time I see her. Today, she pushed really hard on me having a confrontation with W. "GET angry" she says, "angry is GOOD." She describes our situation as me being an enabler for my W's addiction to the A. The whole conversation made me very uncomfortable, but more in the sense of I see her point. What she's suggesting is SO non-DB, so far as I understand it. She WANTS me to put pressure on my W. She spoke of me loosing my self-esteem and self-respect because of what I'm letting happen here. I countered with the fact my self-respect isn't the problem - it's my respect for W and the disrespect she's paying me. I've been getting progressively more and more angry at W for all of this. I'm completely unable to detach - the only way I can even think to detach is to go into denial about the A being there, and to me, that's not the idea. I try to focus on my new found exercise, and that does somewhat work. I busy myself with projects, which are tough to get to with my damn travel schedule and work commitments. I try to spend time with my girls, but ever time there's a quiet moment, and I get a chance to just look in their eyes, my mind goes to "that b*tch - I can't believe she'd take this away from me". I increasingly find hatred in my heart for my W. When I think about her, I think about how physically unattractive she has become to me - when I see her, it's a slightly different story, but I still see her through anti-rose colored glasses. I even found myself looking up my last girlfriend on classmates.com last night, and actually found her - the first time I'd found an avenue to contact her again, since I haven't talked to her in almost 10 years. I'm lost on this path and the person I hoped would help guide me (my IC) is trying to point me in a different direction entirely. I told my IC I'm not ready to give the final ultimatum, as much as I had been thinking about it. She doesn't see a discussion of "<W>, I don't know how much longer I can take this." as a final ultimatum - perhaps it's not the "final" one, but it's an ultimatum, and pressure, nonetheless. Everything I read here, and other places is, don't put pressure on your WS - maybe I take it to too much of an extreme. I brought up the concept of going dark, and my IC is actually all for it - granted, she'd rather see me have the confrontation/pre-ultimatum discussion first, but to me it was a conflict in her thinking. I think I need to find a new IC.
I dug out an old journal I wrote almost exactly 6 years ago, which would have been when W and I had been dating for about 6 or 7 months and right after we'd moved in together. I wrote it on a 2 week trip to eastern Europe that I had set up with two guy friends before W and I even met. The journal was supposed to be a trip journal, but I ended up dumping a lot of emotional crap in there about my R with W. I'd been meaning to dig this thing out and destroy it before W happened upon it. There's nothing horrible in it, but just not one of those things your spouse should happen upon. I came across it a couple of years ago and laughed at its contents. Much griping about things I felt just didn't apply anymore. But, now, reading it again, it's as if nothing has changed since those emotional and drama-filled times. I think to myself, was I deceiving myself (or being deceived) when I read it two years ago, or did things just happen in a strange wave? A lot of the things I wrote in the journal, after just *6 months* of dating W, seem to apply now, and are many of the reasons I question why I even want to try to be with this woman for the rest of my life. Yes, there are the kids to think about, and yes there are our families... and yes "love" is such a subjective and off-and-on thing... but, there has to come a time and situation when one questions what's best for all concerned that the answer is what we all here are trying to avoid. I'm afraid of being unable to forgive her, at this point. She continues to disrespect me and so many people around us with her actions - I don't know if I can forgive her for that. What's more, I am now starting to think about the physical sex. Until now, it was 99% the deceipt that was getting to me; but, now I find myself pondering our reconciliation and whether or not I can actually get past the PA side enough to have sex with her. Hell, 4 of the 6 known times they've had physical sex have been since d-day (2 months ago). IF she drops the A, and IF we reconcile, and IF we eventually become sexually intimate again, I'm going to insist she get tested for STDs. I can't imagine that's going to go over well - perhaps I'm looking too far ahead.
A lot of random crap for you to get through, if you read this far. In case you did get here, somebody please tell me that this place I'm in - having complete disgust and disdain for my wayward spouse - is a place I can come out of and decide again that it really is worth it to work on this marriage.
RC
P.S. I'm not sure if my IC has finished reading the copies of DR or DB I loaned her - it hasn't come up in my last two visits.
I'm also concerned that my animosity and inability to forgive W will stretch into our post-divorce relationship, negatively affecting our kids. So, I constantly ponder whether or not it's best to cut my losses and end it now. My rational side tells me that's not the way things would play out - there is no "cut my losses" - so, stop thinking that. But, irrational side still sits there with his little hot poker poking away at me.
Sounds to me like you do indeed need to find another IC to work with. Not that what is being said is wrong or right, but you seem to have a different view point when compared to the IC.
AS far as the anger goes, it has to be dealt with to move forward. Try to deal with it in a constructive manner. Find an outlet the doesn't involve your W. Anger in itself sometimes fuels more anger. I can't see how that will help your sitch if directed at your W. You need to get rid of it because it taints you soul and eats from within.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it."
Marcus Aurelius
W and I are headed to that friend's wedding out-of-state. Wish me luck... in keeping it together... and in not expecting anything... good or bad. Gone for 4 days.
