Chatted with the potential MC tonight. I wouldn't say it was depressing, but when I told him the A is still going on, he said that the chances weren't good. He said he's never seen MC work when the affair is still going on. So, just basically confirmed my feeling that now just isn't the time to see one. More DB'ing ahead. I think I'll try to chat the same way with the few MC's my insurance covers. Except for that, I'm going to go ahead and cover my bases and call the divorce attorney to at least make the connection.
In other news, I remembered another thing I've always wanted to do - learn karate (or some other martial arts). Besides wanting to learn to play guitar, that's one of my oldest wants. Once I've been working out at the gym for a while, I think I'll look that up. Maybe eventually even take some Daddy/Daughter classes I heard about.
I don't think snooping is all that evil considering the situation you're in. I mean,, if you have the stomach to handle what you know you'll find out it can help you stay out of a kind of fantasy land some can fall into, thinking everything is alright if they don't actually see it. I think that kind of prospective is important in that this is an unreal situation, totally crazy, and acting like everything is hunky dory, in my opinion, just feeds the monster.
Think if the tables were turned. you are the one cheating. Do you really think your wife wouldn't snoop? wouldnt raise hell? This is a war of sorts with new battles waged everyday. The ebb and flow, the rise and fall of moods, emotions and feelings. Knowing what the other side is up to seems only prudent to me...providing you can take what you know you will find out.
Usually MC is not recommended when only one of the parties is actually interested in saving the marriage, i.e. when the affair is still in full swing. I don't remember, are you in IC? If not, maybe try that first, and by all means, please pick a C that is not going to start out with "well, there's really NO hope for you right now..."
Quote: Usually MC is not recommended when only one of the parties is actually interested in saving the marriage, i.e. when the affair is still in full swing.
I think I was partially hoping for an MC to suggest I start seeing them as the one partner that is willing, then when W is willing to work on the marriage (ie. stop the affair), we could both go. But, I also feel/know that W should be involved in choosing the MC, so kind of a contradiction. At this point, I'm going to wait to set up any appointments until this A has stopped - in the meantime, I'm going to try to touch base with a few MCs to get a feel for them ahead of time.
Quote: I don't remember, are you in IC? If not, maybe try that first, and by all means, please pick a C that is not going to start out with "well, there's really NO hope for you right now..."
Yup, in fact had my fifth (?) session today. I'm the one that loaned his C copies of DB and DR - she's read a bit, but not enough to really talk about it during our sessions. On a related note...
In my C session today, my C convinced me to send that email I had typed up about drinks at dinner vs W trying to give me money for them. I was pretty much going with the suggestion to hold off any such discussion until the next time it happened, but my C had a couple of good points. It's probably a bad idea to discuss this when right in the moment, and particularly when that moment is when W has been drinking. I saw her point, and effectively agreed, but I did pose the counterpoint that W and her family (mostly her dad) are much more open and honest, particularly in regards to emotional matters, after having a few (or more than a few) drinks. We discussed the concept of presenting discussion points like this in different media than your usual mode - eg. in writing, rather than verbal, if you're usually verbal. The idea being that if the other person isn't catching what you're saying, then say it in a different way (is this in DB? it might be - I forget where I picked it up). Our typical mode is instant messenger - most of our "serious" discussions have been over instant messenger. I kind of feel my email approach is a bit too much like that. So, I am probably going to hand write it and deliver it as a letter/note for her to read - will be quite different from my usual, as I've rarely hand-written more than a little note in a greeting card for her.
I had some other updates, but can't remember them right now. Have to get to bed somewhat early as I have a meeting with a personal trainer tomorrow morning!
W changed her email passwords just now. Only reason I know is my email client started giving errors - I had it automatically downloading hers into a separate folder. Guess that takes care of that.
Have been feeling rather depressed lately. Going to try to lay down some stuff that is going on that might be the cause. Bear with me as I vent/journal...
Feeling like my DB'ing is going entirely too slowly - not that the results are coming slowly (of which, there are none to speak of), but that I'm just not getting into the gear of DB'ing quickly enough. I've got this gym thing going, and that's about all I've been able to stick to, unless you count seeing an IC as DB'ing. I haven't been able to successfully set up stuff with friends - partially my fault for just not getting on it, partially due to lack of a large collection of local friends to call upon. I couldn't keep with my getting-out-of-the-house-every-night idea. But, the gym thing is going well. I saw the personal trainer today, and boy are my arms tired (ba dum bum). Definitely looking forward to getting into shape. Who knows, I might even get BUFF... oooooo.
Current thing that is driving me nuts: A good friend of ours is getting married in July. This friend was the "maid" of honor (in quotes, because it's a guy - someone who was there for W when all other friends weren't after her last divorce). I really wanted both of us to go, even before d-day. But, now, there's no way I'm letting her go by herself. I both want it to be time for us, away from the kids and everything here; but, I also want to prevent (read: control :P) her from seeing OM at that time, and possibly taking him around our friends. Here's the problem - the wedding is way across the country, and in a place that the tickets ain't cheap. The whole trip is going to cost about 5 times what I'd prefer. I (perhaps stupidly) already checked to see if my mom could watch the girls that extended weekend and told W that mom had said she could. It was only then that I checked flight prices. I can afford it, but am going to slap it on credit cards, building up that debt I got rid of a couple years ago. Goes back to what someone said "what price do I put on your marriage?" Well, I'm trying to extend the trip at least one more day so (1) we get more time with just us together, and (2) I make it worth my money - hopefully I don't end up sorry. Oh, yeah, and this happens to be in a part of the country that brings back bad vibes for W. Damn, I wish she would just get past all this crap and see the happiness in things - I can't spit and not hit something that brings back bad memories for her - heck, even the spit would probably bring back a bad memory.
Then there's Father's Day. I really do not want one darn thing from W for this Father's Day, except maybe a card. Our girls aren't old enough to pick something for me, so it would come from her. There's only one thing I want from her, and I think you all know what it is. I've told her that all I really want to do for Father's Day is go to the movies with the girls (will be their first), and go to the museum.
Then there's my bday a month later. Again, I want absolutely nothing of material value from her. I'm just waiting for her to ask "what do you want for your bday?", so I can tell her "for you to stop this affair." Probably not going to happen (me saying that, that is) - but, I may be likely to tell her "from you? a card will suffice" (in as up beat of a voice I can manage). Lord knows how she would pay for anything, and I'm certainly not giving her money to buy my presents, like I did this past Christmas. Oh yeah, OM gives her money, maybe she could use that. What's funny is that we'll be at the friend's wedding on my bday, so maybe she'll just forget... like she practically forgot Valentine's Day and our anniversary this year.
Then there's the fact she's going back out on the archaeology dig weekend after next. Half looking forward to it, as I'll get time alone with the girls and my mom - haven't gotten to spend too much quality time with my mom lately. But, half grinding my teeth over the fact W and OM will meet up there (treating it as fact, not suspicion).
Then there's 4th of July. We're all going out of state to spend it with family, but W's going to have to fly back on the 4th by herself due to a final she has to attend on the 5th. I'll have to fly back by myself with our D2s - not dreading that, but very upset W won't be there to see their reaction to the fireworks. I 99% know W couldn't prevent this one, but 1% irrationally feel that she should have.
Sorry to sound so depressed. I'm not all that depressed at this very moment, but I felt the need to journal some of this to get it out. Heck, you should have seen what I wrote and wiped out before this.
Here's the thing. DB is not (even though some parts suggest it IS) a "do something" and then see immediate results. It's a way of thinking, a way of life. Actually, that's probably too strong, to call it a way of life. Maybe the best is to say it's a perspective.
It still seems like just about 97% of your attention is on your W, and the 3% that is on you is only there because of what it may do to attract HER attention.
I KNOW it can be hard to GAL. Trust me, that is the part of DB I have done the worst in, but GAL is SO much more than being gone all the time, it's about really embracing and enjoying YOUR life, YOUR passions, YOUR hobbies, hell, I would even say YOUR favorite TV shows. To me, GAL is all about showing yourself AND the world (read:wife) that you can really love life again and have passion for something.
I think too often, especially after D-day, but for many of us long before, all the passion drains out of us. We become these robots, not really getting "up" or passionate about life any more. For a myriad of reasons, different (and surprisingly the same) for all of us, we are angry, depressed, tired, unhappy, unmotivated, lazy, overworked, etc, etc, etc. W sees this and is less than inspired to try to mend things, preferring to go where the supposed "light" is, i.e. OM.
So, don't get down on yourself because you can't fill your time with great out-of-the-house adventures. If you can't get out, do something with the kids and REALLY enjoy it. Watch a movie, preferably a comedy, that you've really wanted to see, and laugh your a$$ off. Just learn to celebrate those parts of your life that truly ARE still ok, even though that big part is not so good. It really does help.
As for the trip, I guess I am just worried that you have HUGE expectations, compounded by the money thing, and may sabotage any chance of a "nice" time. If you have been with me for awhile, you know I went to Ireland and had a lot of the same fears/expectations. I probably exhausted a thread's worth of posting to get to the point (with the help of a LOT of people here) where I expected NOTHING from my W, and everything in terms of MY ability to JUST HAVE FUN, with, or without my W's participation. Again, it took a LONG time for me to see the wisdom in that, and you know what, it worked like a charm. Did we have $ex on that trip like I REALLY wanted to? Nope. Did we even hold hands or kiss? Nope. Did that disappoint me? Yep, but in no way did I let that show. Sure, we had our moments, some bad, but mostly, it was the BEST TRIP we ever had because I was not concerned with anything but ME having a great time, and W went right along with me. I think she finally felt safe, like at any moment I was not going to break out the R talk and ruin things.
I just hope you are not looking to this trip as some kind of magical elixir, and that when you get W alone, away from the "daily grind" that she'll melt into your arms, forgetting all that's been going on. I know you DID NOT say that's what you expect, but I am trying to get you to really look hard at what you DO expect and then understand that any expectations you place on her are not really acceptable, and yes, as you pointed out, controlling in a way.
If you can take this trip and accept that NOTHING may change in your sitch, then I would say go for it. If you can take the trip with the idea that you want to SEE if you can affect change in her, then fine, but only if you can honestly accept, and then immediately upon rejection (if that happens, and I hope it doesn't) happily move on to the rest of the time, going on as friends, or whatever the sitch allows you two be.
It's really hard to do that, and I had MANY people telling me not to take my trip. I can tell you that there were MANY times I had to focus my efforts in order not to show sorrow or anger at things "not happening" but you know what, most of the time I was having so much fun, I didn't even notice.
Sure, this is a wedding and likely not to have all the "fun" time that my trip did, but you can still approach it with a "beginner's" mind and NO expectations, only that you enjoy yourself and display that happy, PMA, GAL guy that CAN go on without her if he has to.
Ah, Father's Day. I feel you there. I am dealing with the same thing. I too only want that "special" thing from W for Father's Day and probably won't get even close.
All I can say is that you just need to focus on the kids and let things fall where they may. I know it hurts but you will be ok.
Lastly, it seems (and for sure, I have not been really good at reading you) that a LOT of what you are venting about is a lack of control over W. You HAVE to let that go. You cannot control her and the sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be as an individual AND as a partner.
I really hope you pull out of the funk soon. You know it comes in waves and soon, it will crest, giving way to the next sorta "up" time. I think you are trying pretty hard, and know the right things to do. Just work on letting go of that control and making more REAL happy times for you that DON'T involve her.
Quote: Here's the thing. DB is not (even though some parts suggest it IS) a "do something" and then see immediate results. It's a way of thinking, a way of life. Actually, that's probably too strong, to call it a way of life. Maybe the best is to say it's a perspective.
Exactly - this is what I was trying to say - it's not that I'm expecting to see results, although I'm disappointed I haven't seen one, yet. I'm upset that I haven't kicked up the DB notch quicker.
Quote: It still seems like just about 97% of your attention is on your W, and the 3% that is on you is only there because of what it may do to attract HER attention.
You might just be right, here. I hadn't thought of it this way.
Quote: I think too often, especially after D-day, but for many of us long before, all the passion drains out of us. We become these robots, not really getting "up" or passionate about life any more. For a myriad of reasons, different (and surprisingly the same) for all of us, we are angry, depressed, tired, unhappy, unmotivated, lazy, overworked, etc, etc, etc. W sees this and is less than inspired to try to mend things, preferring to go where the supposed "light" is, i.e. OM.
Yeah, this was definitely me. The passion has been slowly draining out of me for about the past year - which is almost exactly as long as the A has been going on. I feel the A is the cause - or the lack of attention to our R that meant - but, perhaps it was a little the other way around, or both. Having been gone the better part a year, it's going to be a bit tough finding true passion in anything.
Quote: So, don't get down on yourself because you can't fill your time with great out-of-the-house adventures. If you can't get out, do something with the kids and REALLY enjoy it. Watch a movie, preferably a comedy, that you've really wanted to see, and laugh your a$$ off.
Getting out of the house is about the only thing available to me for GAL or finding enjoyment. I have so little time with my kids during the work week - get home around 6:30, them in bed by 8:30 - with dinner and such in there, I only have at most an hour with them on week days. I do try to spend that time well, such as taking them swimming or just playing in the living room. I might try the movie idea, since kid's movies are short. But, I have so much time outside of that, such as after putting them to bed, since I get to bed myself around midnight or 1am. Still trying to figure out the right thing to do with my time that isn't just doing something for doing something's sake, but something I actually find enjoyment in. I'll find it, eventually - in the meantime, you might hear me gripe about not having found it, yet.
Quote: As for the trip, I guess I am just worried that you have HUGE expectations, compounded by the money thing, and may sabotage any chance of a "nice" time. ... I just hope you are not looking to this trip as some kind of magical elixir, and that when you get W alone, away from the "daily grind" that she'll melt into your arms, forgetting all that's been going on.
Expectations - I've tried very hard not to have any, and I don't think I do. The only two thoughts that I have are (1) she can't see OM while we're there, and (2) I really want to go for my friend who's getting married. I do have fears that things will go bad, but I'm not expecting them to. I have zero hope that things will turn a corner for the better as a result of this trip - you might call that an expectation, and if that expectation is proven wrong, then so much the better (although I won't believe it has happened for quite some time). Sex is definitely out of the question - ain't going to happen - not an expectation, but a fact. The most I'll get to do is hold her arm in escort fashion. Yes, I'm going for reasons other than just me, but I plan on doing my best to enjoy it for me.
We're definitely doing the trip. I just have to get over my fear induced procrastination and buy the plane tickets.
Quote: All I can say is that you just need to focus on the kids and let things fall where they may. I know it hurts but you will be ok.
It's funny, but I think it's focusing on the kids that partially led to this A. The cause definitely has the factor of R neglect in it. Feels kind of contraindicative to focus on them so much right now. What I'm doing right now is not exactly changing my focus on them, but trying to place heavy focus on myself... "trying" being the operative word.
Quote: Lastly, it seems (and for sure, I have not been really good at reading you) that a LOT of what you are venting about is a lack of control over W. You HAVE to let that go. You cannot control her and the sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be as an individual AND as a partner.
Another factor of the A. I read in a resource outside of DB/DR about types of A's. It described one in which the spouse originally saw you as protective and comforting, but over time this turned into controlling. You never changed, but your spouse's perception of you did. Looking back, I can definitely see that in our R. W left a lot of things up to me, and came to me to "protect" her from various things. The way I handled all of them was to try to control the situation and/or come up with solutions, when probably all I really should have done was validate and be supportive, forgoing the attempt at finding solutions and offering advice. I see a lot of this in her R with OM. He's very controlling in the sense that he tells her what to do about so many things - "when you get home, work on your history paper", "take your pill (ritalin) today", etc etc. That resource I read talked about how this would be a recurring pattern in her relationships until she came to recognize it - something I now find obvious and can be applied to many A's. Anyway, as far as me letting go of this need to feel in control, it's going to be tough, but I know I have to do it. I've done it at work - 3 yrs ago, anyone would have told you I was a control freak, but not so much the case now - but, personal life is another story.
Quote: I really hope you pull out of the funk soon. You know it comes in waves and soon, it will crest, giving way to the next sorta "up" time. I think you are trying pretty hard, and know the right things to do. Just work on letting go of that control and making more REAL happy times for you that DON'T involve her.
Mantra: In time, this too will pass. Even if that doesn't end up applying to the A, it applies to my funk - I've had too many to count and each time they do indeed go away with time, and even quicker if I'm working at it.
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Now a couple of journaling bits...
The other morning, one of our D2s got into my bedside books. I only knew because as I was walking out the door to head to work, I heard W say "hey! that's daddy's book!" to D2. It wasn't until today that I realized the only book out of place at all in the 5 or 6 books I have over there was SI (Surviving Infidelity), so that must be the one she grabbed, which I had stuck down between my night stand and the bed (not hidden, just not in plain sight). This is the same day W changed her email passwords. Too bad I haven't even read SI, yet - still trying to get through DR.
Had a pretty good night tonight. We went to a special members-only event at the zoo. The girls had fun looking at all the animals and just running around in general. We stopped for ice cream on the way home, even though it was already past the girls' bed time. Then we came home and put our newly adopted hamster in a cage W bought for him today - the girls are in love with him already. I'm now exhausted and sore as heck from the gym yesterday morning, and I should have gone to bed more than 2 hours ago... so, goodnight.
Took the girls to their first movie theater experience today - "Over the Hedge". It turned out great. They sat and watched the whole thing with no problems, making little cute comments here and there. A good start to a Father's Day weekend. Then, W made Father's Day dinner tonight, rather than tomorrow. That made me feel a bit guilty, given I didn't feel like doing jack for her on Mother's Day - didn't consider her that good of a mother, having just discovered the affair three weeks before. Then, I "realized" she probably didn't do it so much for me as that she loves to cook and doesn't get much chance to do so, lately. I thanked her with sincerity, nonetheless.
Posted on Muddle's thread about setting boundaries, so thought I'd mention that, now. I've been giving more and more thought to asking W to move out while this A is still going on. But, I think it is more me trying to control the situation - I don't want her to have this double life so easily. I'm not at all ready for laying down an ultimatum, because I'm not ready to back it up. But, I would really like to just ask her to not be here as part of this family while she leads this second life with OM. I wouldn't keep her from the kids at all, but don't want this to be her home, and don't want it to be so easy for her. Part of that is coming from the knowledge that she's talking to him online at the very same moment she's talking with me face to face. (Damn laptops.) Asking her to move out might be the right thing to do, but I think my reasons are all wrong... so, it's not likely to happen in that sense. Also, there's the logistical problem. W is a full time student, has no savings, so has no money, and I doubt her parents would pay for it. But, if it comes down to it, OM can damn well pay for an apartment for her (maybe not a good thing in and of itself).
Also on Muddle's thread was the concept of fighting for your spouse. Forgive me GH, as this goes into your thought that "the 3% that is on you is only there because of what it may do to attract HER attention." I see DB as two things: (1) improving self, and (2) by improving self, attracting your spouse's attention. I understand that (1) should be your focus, and (2) should just happen, if it's going to happen at all. But, I can't help but think about everything that I am doing for myself, wondering if it will attract W's attention. If there's a chance my W wants me to fight for her, even if that "fight" takes the form of improving myself, then doesn't she need to see it? Therefore, if I want to be sure she sees I'm fighting for her, then shouldn't I be sure some of the things I'm doing are readily visible to her? So, here I am doing the following that are obvious self-improvement actions: going to the gym and going to an IC (although W and I don't talk about it). Things that aren't so obviously self-improvement are those that are simply geared towards making yourself happy: hooking up with friends, watching your favorite TV show, going swimming every night, etc. I see DB/GAL as doing different things than your typical "making myself happy" things - for me, those examples I just mentioned are different. But, what is most typical for me, and what I oft times find most happiness in, is spending hours on my computer, staying involved in the various online communities I'm involved in. BUT, it's so tough for ANYONE to pick up on what you're doing on the computer - you could be up to ANYTHING. So, how can she see that I'm improving myself or making myself happy if I'm just sitting behind a computer screen? Not looking for any answers or advice on this one - just thoughts running through my head. This is why I'm having a hard time picking up anything else to make me happy - I'm most happy when sitting at a computer, and this has been the case since childhood. It's not just a simple matter of picking up things I dropped as I got older. Sure, there are some of those things, but easier said than done on quite a few of them. So, I'm trying out new things. Hrm, maybe that's where the motorcycle desire comes from.
