I mentioned we went to Benihana's on Sunday evening. W had three drinks, I had three drinks, and mom had three drinks. At the end of dinner, W hands me a $20 bill as payment for her drinks. She's done this a number of times in the past, and I know exactly why. I used to grouse quite a lot about how many drinks she ordered, for two reasons - (1) because the cost adds up quick, and we didn't have *that* much money, and (2) I grew up around a lot of alcoholics and was somewhat against drinking to the point of inebriation. Well, I haven't worried about the cost in quite a long time, and have groused less and less about it over the last 2 years, to the point that I no longer complain - I really have no concern over whether she orders $5 worth or $50, because I figured out it's not worth it when we do it so seldomly and I actually have more money, now. As far as the inebriation goes, my experience with drinkers has changed since knowing W and her family. They all drink quite a lot, but they are quite responsible and likable when drunk... unlike the alcoholics I grew up around. So, she gave me this $20, I tried to give it back (because I really don't want it), she wouldn't take it, and my mom asked "why are you giving him money??" W didn't really answer, but later when they were outside alone, my mom asked again, and W said it was because I had complained way back when and never "recanted". (This is definitely a communication/relationship issue with us - I'll say something ONCE, and she'll forever think that is my opinion on the matter, as if I can't change my mind; and, no actions I take to *show* that's the case ever work - I have to SAY it... EXPLICITLY... AGAIN AND AGAIN.)
Anyway, my mom told me today about their conversation outside the restaurant. It's been driving me nuts, because now I want to say "<W>, I recant, okay? jeez". But, I don't want to approach it like that. I want to approach it from an "assertive" standpoint, which I admitedly don't quite understand 100%, yet. I'm trying to make sure I don't approach this from a passive-aggressive standpoint. When my C and I talked about assertive vs passive-aggressive, the big difference I could pinpoint was that in assertive, you put yourself in the other person's shoes, state this up front, and *then* come in with what you were going to say. So, I've put together an email that lays down how she probably feels guilty, because I made her feel that way ("and I apologize"), but I no longer have concern over how much she drinks or how costly it is, and I'd like her to stop giving me money and just have fun.
Advice needed is... do I bother sending this? Is it R talk? Is it pursuing? I hope to get a handle on what is and isn't DB, but I still feel so new to this and doubt myself left and right.
Probably the way I'd handle it (and it may not be the right way) would be to let it go for now (she may just have been moody and just wanting to complain at the time), continue to be the "new person" you've changed into with regard to this. And the next time something like this occurs point out that you've changed and this no longer bothers you.
Or, if you want address is, but in an easy-going, matter-of-fact manner. Saying something like... 'You know how the other day this happened.... it's funny but that kind of stuff no longer bothers me. I'm not as concerned about spending money like that when I know we're having a nice time."
I know it's frustrating. Sometimes we do truly change and spouses see us as reacting in a way we would have done 10 years prior.
It's interesting about your previous post how snooping is such a negative thing. I think so too and yet I find myself wanting to do that lately to figure out what's going on with my H. I even broke down and ordered some spyware for the computer. I kind of regret this now because I think I need to just let this stuff go and move forward in my life. :-(
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
Thanks for the response, running. The thing is, W wasn't just moody - this has been a long running issue. I think that I'm going to wait until my next C session on Friday to discuss this with her. I just want to make sure I say what I want as simply, straightforward, and assertive as possible. My usual is to just let it go... and let it go... and let it go... and then blow up, attacking things (and her) from my angle only - ie. passive-agressive. So, I want to "do something different" and bring it up now, but be sure I acknowledge her angle.
Ever since d-day, and the start of my snooping, I've found myself being MUCH MUCH MUCH more secretive of my own computer use than I ever was. I used to not have a password on my desktop - now I do, and a very secure one at that. I've secured our firewall so that someone can't get in from outside and delve into things (ie. OM is geek enough to be dangerous - just probably not as geek as me). I've set my laptop to password protected screensaver after 5 minutes. Now, I just received a cool thing I ordered that is a wireless USB security device - locks your computer instantly if you walk away from it, while you're carrying this key fob thing.
What stinks about this is that I wasn't ever this secretive. Before this, my only "secret" was that I have a fairly standard password that only one other person knows - the same best friend I've told about the A - and I've never told W this password, even though I know hers. Now, I'm hiding my books from her (DB, DR, SI), making sure W can't read my screen if she walks by, and making sure nobody can access my computers. All the while, W hasn't locked down any of her computers, hasn't changed her email passwords, and in general has done very little to hide her communcation with OM. Granted, she now has a separate cell phone she doesn't think I know about, has changed the instant messenger app she uses to talk with OM, and is hiding a great number of other things she doesn't think I know about - but, for the most part, almost everything can be attributed to OM setting things up or suggestions he's made. At least, that's what I gather. Oh, certainly, the significance of the things I'm hiding is so much less than what she is hiding, but I've had very little to be secret about until this A came around. Further, I now have to be "mysterious" to make her wonder about me. Sometimes it feels like fighting deception with deception.
Quote: Oh, certainly, the significance of the things I'm hiding is so much less than what she is hiding, but I've had very little to be secret about until this A came around. Further, I now have to be "mysterious" to make her wonder about me. Sometimes it feels like fighting deception with deception.
Ok, here's the thing, you are doing all this in reaction to HER, not really because you want to for your own reasons. You don't HAVE to be deceptive, just like you don't HAVE to be an open book either. There IS a middle ground.
As for now having to be "mysterious" to make her wonder about you, well, that is MUCH more about just DOING things and not talking about them all the time. If you are like me, you probably used to CONSTANTLY check in with your W, or even if you didn't, she probably knew where you were most of the time, right. Well, all you are doing now is just living your life without that need to check in. YOU ARE NOT BEING deceptive in doing that. You are simply not getting her to sign off on your life anymore. BTW, if she asks what you are doing, or what you are reading, just tell her if you want to. There is no sense in making yourself uncomfortable doing something that you don't want to do, i.e. lie to her. Fact is that she is unlikely to ask you very much about what you are doing and it's mainly YOUR need to let her know that is messing with you.
Trust me, this part was VERY hard for me but I found out VERY quickly that it not only made me feel like I was more in control of my life, but it DID get W's attention and all of a sudden SHE was faced with wondering what I was up to, even though she know perfectly well that all she had to do was ask.
Quote: If you are like me, you probably used to CONSTANTLY check in with your W, or even if you didn't, she probably knew where you were most of the time, right.
That's fairly accurate. In fact, I'm trying to think of a way that I can just get out of the house almost every night after putting the girls to bed, without telling her in any way, shape, or form where I'm going or what I'm doing. I would in actuality just be going down to Starbucks, the park, or anywhere I could just be out of the house, even if alone. I've thought of just saying "I'm heading out. I'll have my cell phone and can be back within 5 minutes if you need me." Being at home, it just seems like I'm doing more of the same, which is mostly just sitting down and messing around on my laptop after we get the girls to bed. W does essentially the same, working on school work (and talking to OM), and there's very little interaction between us - again, more of the same, but not something I feel I can change, right now. I figure that getting out of the house would definitely be a change, for me, at least until I can kick up my hobbies. The negative is that I won't be around W all that much - but, right now, I'm finding it hard to detach when I'm around her (although maybe not so much harder when I'm not), which I think is leading to the lack of interaction.
Quote: There is no sense in making yourself uncomfortable doing something that you don't want to do, i.e. lie to her.
Am I lying to her? (question to self) I don't think I've explicitly lied to her - just been very secretive about what I'm reading and such, and deceptive in so much as reacting as if I don't know all these details I know from snooping. But, point taken - it is making me uncomfortable, and I should probably just go about my business. First step is probably to not worry about her reading my screen when walking around - about all she'll be able to see is a big "DivorceBusting.com" web page header. Next, I'll probably just start reading the books out in the open - I'm already not worrying so much about keeping them out of sight, as the girls pulled them out the other day while playing in our bedroom. The stuff about having passwords set and whatnot, I'm not so much uncomfortable about as just upset to be put in this position where I feel I have to protect my own data, now.
Thanks again for your thoughts, GH.
RC
P.S. Been one week after my first attempt at stopping snooping - have done pretty good, except for aforemention regression. It's all I can do to keep from reading her email to see if they are indeed meeting up when she's out of town.
Quote: In fact, I'm trying to think of a way that I can just get out of the house almost every night after putting the girls to bed, without telling her in any way, shape, or form where I'm going or what I'm doing. I would in actuality just be going down to Starbucks, the park, or anywhere I could just be out of the house, even if alone. I've thought of just saying "I'm heading out. I'll have my cell phone and can be back within 5 minutes if you need me."
This is what I did too. Actually, this and I took up jogging. I KNOW she saw through both as just an excuse to get away but I didn't care. I needed time to process all this and to just be by myself. I have NEVER done that in my entire life so it was a BIG 180 for me.
Quote: First step is probably to not worry about her reading my screen when walking around - about all she'll be able to see is a big "DivorceBusting.com" web page header. Next, I'll probably just start reading the books out in the open - I'm already not worrying so much about keeping them out of sight, as the girls pulled them out the other day while playing in our bedroom. The stuff about having passwords set and whatnot, I'm not so much uncomfortable about as just upset to be put in this position where I feel I have to protect my own data, now.
Well, honestly, I did not ever read DB in front of her and I am still "hiding" passionate marriage mainly because W does not really like the whole self-help thing and I don't really want to discuss it with her right now. I know OT has told me that I may be wrong about W's feelings on the subject but for now, my reading habits are kept in the dark from W.
Quote: P.S. Been one week after my first attempt at stopping snooping - have done pretty good, except for aforemention regression. It's all I can do to keep from reading her email to see if they are indeed meeting up when she's out of town.
Good, keep this up. As for figuring out if they are meeting, why not assume they are and go from there. That's what I did. Not to be negative about it but I just assumed the worst and then detached from it. It was easier that way and really helped me not snoop. Snooping would only likely confirm what I already "knew" so why do it. Assume the worst and prepare for the best. It's worked for me so far...
Had one good point today. W called and left me a voicemail while I was at work. She's taking yoga and I was to watch the girls tonight - she was calling with dinner suggestions. She mentioned "I noticed you've been trying to eat healthier, so..." and suggested a couple of healthier options. I never really mentioned that eating healthier was one of my goals, I think because it's been a forced goal, somewhat - ever since d-day, my appetite has gone to crap, and all I can seem to eat is what is more healthy and/or just less quantity. One funny thing I've been doing as an experiment is sucking in my gut. I've lost a little bit of gut because of my changed eating habits (not quite like my 30 lbs I lost after my last gf breakup), and it's been easier to just suck it in these past few weeks. I've had a bit of a gut growing over the past few years, and I look completely different if I suck it in, particularly when shirtless. Not one word from W - not that I expected it, again just an experiment.
One funny thing happened, too. Today was a friend's birthday, and a bunch of folks were meeting at a local bar that's a bit of a drive from our house. W called me and said she was going to drop by there before yoga - I had been thinking "man, it would be nice to drop by and see everyone, but W is going to yoga and I have to watch the girls". After W told me she was going, I got PISSED. I checked on a couple of the friends that had kids and they said they were going to bring them - the bar has a fenced-off outside patio we could take over. So, I said "screw it, I'm going, and I'm taking the girls with me." Called W and let her know, so she wouldn't hear about us going from someone else - she thought it was a great idea. We went, had a great time seeing everyone, and left around 8:30. I knew W's yoga class ended about that time, and she'd probably beat me home. Sure enough, around 9pm, W calls me from the driveway, on her cell phone (ie. didn't even wait until getting inside to use the house phone) asking me where I was, in a voice that was bordering on irritation/anger. I just kind of laughed interally and told her I'd be home in about 20 min.
Had my first workout at the gym today. Went fairly well, but I found out how out of shape I really am. It helped me not think about the A, for a little while, although it did creep in my mind ever so slightly. Also went swimming after putting the girls to bed - when I say swimming, I mostly just float around with my ears underwater - the sensory deprivation is rather meditatively theraputic.
The night was going fairly well, until just before I'm about to go to bed, W asks me to review her Spanish II composition. She had to write about something that had a big impact or important event in her life. She was going to pick an op ed article she'd written for a contest, but changed to writing about our girls. Man, I wonder if she knew what she just did to me by writing what she did. She wrote about how we struggled to get pregnant, but never gave up hope. About how before we had the girls, we did lots of things together, saw our friends a lot, and travelled. Now, we go to family restaurants and hang out with friends of the girls (ie. other families with kids). She goes on about how we used to see her distant family a lot (California & Connecticut), and how we used to go on family trips with them. Then, the girls arrived and things got difficult, her family was far away, and we were busy with all the little things. "But, we were happy," she says. Then, she mentions how she thought the changes were permanent, "I was wrong! Now, things are different, but better than before." Her family now comes here for festivities, and we're going to be going on a family trip in August to Vermont, but *with* our twins this time; and, we are starting to see our friends again, in places we can bring the girls. "Things are different, but better than before. I am looking forward to the changes in the future."
I so want to read something into the fact she wrote that - particularly the last part. But, I don't know what. Is she trying to send me a signal about us? Is she unintentially sending a signal about her and OM? Did she just randomly pick the topic and make up a bunch of crap to get the composition done? (there were a few items that didn't jibe, and she's made up stuff before just to get her homework done) Well, since I won't be able to figure it out, I'm just going to not try, assuming it's that last one - random. I just ended up telling her the content looked good, but I couldn't help with the correctness of the Spanish tonight. ... and now I head to bed.
RC
P.S. She heads out tomorrow for her out-of-town trip for that archaeology dig. You might see me whine a bit this weekend, being worried she's meeting up with OM. Apologies in advance.
I keep seeing people talk about "acting as if". I read this part in DR, and the sense I get from the message board is different from what I get in the book. From the book, I came to understand it simply as you're acting as if your spouse will reacting well to your words and actions - basically, don't assume they'll react negatively, act as if they'll react positively. From the message board, I almost get the sense that acting as if means acting as if the affair doesn't exist. This seems like denial, to me, although it is damn tempting sometimes. Can anyone clarify or put together the two?
It helped me not think about the A, for a little while, although it did creep in my mind ever so slightly. Also went swimming after putting the girls to bed - when I say swimming, I mostly just float around with my ears underwater - the sensory deprivation is rather meditatively theraputic.