Quote: (If you're still here, thanks for sticking around. I know my description of my sitch isn't quite as lively as Believing_Isaiah's. If you're reading, Believing, thanks for your story - hope you feel better soon.)
Aww, I'm famous! How cool of you to say, thanks. Feeling a little better every day.
As for your C, if I recall correctly, GH gave his C a copy of DB to read for a frame of reference as to where his priorities were - which is why his C is working with him so well.
That whole snooping thing is just from the pits of hell, isn't it? And confronting with snooped knowledge? oh, honey, I did that once or twice, and I'm flat out amazed we're still together. He was (A) furious, and then (B) used that to rationalize a stronger 'alliance' with OW against me, the Evil One. "Them against the world" or some twangy country song crappola. way bad. I do not recommend that C's advice. Although I understand what they think they're trying to do for you.
Would post more, but it's late and I must sleep
Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Is 43:18-19
If it seems slow in coming, wait. It's on its way. It will come right on time. Hab 2:3
Quote: As for your C, if I recall correctly, GH gave his C a copy of DB to read for a frame of reference as to where his priorities were - which is why his C is working with him so well.
Good idea - I may do that.
Quote: That whole snooping thing is just from the pits of hell, isn't it?
Hi Calm, Well I found your current thread! Seems like you are doing really good work. You had a few questions:
Quote: So, I have a couple of related questions. Is it okay to use terms of endearment? We have our names for each other (eg. "sweetie", "baby", etc.). During our R, we've rarely called each other by name - we've used our little names instead. Other question is, is it okay to initiate snuggling or spooning?
Personally, I have found the terms of endearment a happy thing. My H spent one or two weeks calling me by my first name, which he didn't use much in the past unless he was angry, and I was DBing my butt off, and the endearments came back. I do not think it is wise to do anything that will push her further away, so if you are comfortable with endearments and spooning, then do that! It's nice and makes you feel close, right? Anything that she is open to that affirms your connection should be continued IMHO. But do be careful about pursuing. Let her initiate sometimes, and then respond kindly and warmly (but don't be OVERLY enthusiastic) Just be open, loving, warm. Be the one she always wanted. Make her wonder what she was ever thinking to consider leaving you. Don't expect anything, but enjoy it when it comes. Detach, with love.
It sounds like you do not ML at this point. Sometimes WAS are even open to this, and if they are, it can make a special connection, rekindle and remind you of the good parts of your M. My H is not at all open to that right now. But he does seek reassurance from me, which I do my best to provide. He has increasingly allowed me more access to his body, and has periodically been more open to touching and caressing me. It comes and goes. He is confused. Your W may be too. That is OK. You are DBing to confuse, in a sense as a while ago she had decided that she didn't want you so much any more, and you want her to rethink that whole notion. So allow closeness but don't push it - those are the keys.
Sometimes I can tell my H is feeling guilty and is struggling. At thos times I am just kind and sometimes I can touch his hair or face in a loving gesture. Sometimes my H is angry and aloof. On those days I do my best to be cheery and not make it mean anything, and sometimes low and behold, he warms up. And if he doesn't? Oh well, at least I was fun.
You are doing great, Calm.
BTW, I would enlist your C's support in DBing and get her the book. My C is totally behind what I am trying to do, and she knew nothing about it before. But I can sure tell she did quick research to support me. She gets it, and even calls me on my non-DB strategies when I get hooked. So keep an open mind, but also trust this process and your instincts, even if it means at some point you will need a different C to move forward.
Good luck, hang in there, and keep posting - we are with you.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
Quote: It sounds like you do not ML at this point.
Yeah, I guess I didn't mention that earlier. We've ML three times this year (very unsatisfying), and it was rather infrequent before that. What stinks is we were having GREAT sex - best we've ever had kind - just prior to the start of the A. My memory is faulty, but I think it even continued after the OA had started. She had a surgery right at the beginning of the year, in which she also got her tubes tied (half choice, half medical necessity). Then, OM came into town thrid week of January and they had their first PA contact. After that, zero desire for us to ML coming from her - every time was initiated by me, and I'd tried a number of times outside of those three with various excuses. I have every indication she has no desire to ML, and even if she initiated (which she has never really done - not her style), I don't know that I could, anyway - too much taint in the air, right now.
Right now, we have very little physical contact - a hug here and there and the minimal spooning. I honestly feel I should give a little more of the occasional brushes of her back as I walk by, gentle pulling of her hair, just simple touches, but it's been hard to give what hasn't been received.
Quote: BTW, I would enlist your C's support in DBing and get her the book.
Planning on it. Definitely if I figure how much I'm paying my C, the $14 for the book isn't going to break the bank! (and it just might help us stay on the same track)
Quote: Good luck, hang in there, and keep posting - we are with you.
NO, I never gave my C a copy of DB or DR. Actually, I never really even mentioned the name of the books to her. I did mention the author's name and it didn't register to her.
I guess I just lucked out with her but some of it is by design. The first thing I did was tell her that DIVORCE WAS NOT something I wanted to discuss with her. She reluctantly agreed but was curious why that was, why I would limit my options. I then told her about the DB principals without really talking about the books. I told her that I had an online support group of sorts and that these things, no R talk, focus on self, not "forcing an end" to the affair, etc were all things that people here have used and made work for them. She was curious but by NO means convinced. I guess you could say we just agreed to semi-disagree from the beginning. NOW, she is a believer but has said many times that I am a VERY strange case to her because she has never really seen someone be able to do what I have done, in the way I have done it, i.e. she's not had someone successfully (or unsuccessfully for that matter) DB as a patient of hers.
Again, for whatever reason, I just never share much about DB to my C. She knows I am getting the ideas from books but I choose to use my time with her to address my more personal issues and not so much address my marriage. We DO talk about my W and my marriage a lot, but that is mainly as context for what changes and issues I want/need to address as an individual. Does that make sense?
I guess I just have had a clear idea of what I wanted from my C from day one, and that is help with my self-discovery and eventual growth. The marriage part, as DB says, can be GREATLY helped by that personal awareness. I believe that is true.
Hope this clarification helps. Please, ask away if I can explain any more.
Doh! I already ordered extra copies on Amazon. I think I'll just loan them to my C, though, as I might end up switching - particularly if she reads the books and adamantly disagrees.
I wasn't sure if I should read DB as well as DR, but I've bought copies of both, now. Any thoughts on the value of reading both?
As I so often am reluctant to admit, but will, I have only read about 80 pages of DR (but I did read the infidelity section long ago). I did read all of DB. Many people say that DR is the better of the two and since it's written after DB, and contains the same basic principals, I would probably agree. Having not read all of both, I cannot comment on it fully.
As for giving a copy to your C, I don't see any problem with it, I just didn't do it in my case. Dunno why really.
Okay, I regressed slightly tonight. I was already in a funk, due to the upcoming weekend - I don't know why the upcoming weekend itself had me in a funk, except that this Sunday will be the first time we've had a chance in over a month to go back to church. I've never been a big church goer, but I'm all for it, particularly in laying the ground for our girls... except for how our church going started. I came home from a business trip in January and W all of a sudden wanted to go back to church. Seems she had this opening up discussion with OM about something extremely personal from her past. This particular thing was something we had talked about, but not something I could really help her work through - seems OM did, apparently because (as I found out during our d-day discussion) he had something similar in his past. Anyway, it lead her to asking God's forgiveness, and then lead to this gung-ho church going kick. Of course, since I knew enough of the story about her talking something through with OM, and that it was this that lead to her desire to return to the church, I rebelled against the church idea. Then, as things proceeded, she was wrapping herself around a particular faith from her upbringing that also happened to be in OM's upbringing. Through my various snooping, I've read so terribly much about how they steep themselves in religion - tossing blessings at each other here and there - the hypocrisy is rather sickening. What's worse, they went to this church together when he was in town one time - they just *happened* to end up there as a coincidence. This all has put a taint on that church, for me - not to mention the particular faith and church are a bit more strict and traditional for my tastes. Before d-day, I was actually coming to accept and appreciate the strictness and traditional aspects of the church... then d-day. We haven't been back since then, simply because of various travel schedules and whatnot. Not sure how I'm going to detach from this one, but have to try. (Still can't really figure out what detaching is, or when it's right to do so.)
Anyway, the regression... I snooped. The bulk of my snooping has been reading email (2 different accounts). I've also looked at our home caller ID, her cell bills, her "new" cellphone call history, every possible place in the house (didn't find anything - was a slight relief), her bags (ie. purse, backpack), and.... a web cam. We have had a web cam in our livingroom for a long time, originally set up for long distance grandparents to see the babies. She's been sitting in the livingroom, working on her laptop, and talking to OM via an internet voice chat program. The webcam picks up audio, too, although poorly. I fell off the wagon, cranking up the webcam just before leaving the office and simply saw her with her headset on, talking to OM. I didn't hear or see anything particularly bad (and, oh boy, have I seen something before... for those of you who've literally walked in on your SO and OP, I feel for you), but just that little bit - that she was talking to him - pushed me over the edge into a good solid depression. It was all I could do to not randomly snap at W tonight. Should I not have snooped, I think I would have been about level and picked up after seeing our girls - right now, I'm not so depressed, but still upset at myself for slipping. Heading out right now to go swim, maybe relieve some of this yuck.
Once again, snooping is the devil!!!! Just say no!
Had a busy day today. Ran a lot of errands all over town with W and our kids. We had planned to go to an outdoor concert tonight and W was going to cook out on a new grill she bought. We got home around 2pm, and I assembled the grill. I asked her when we needed to light the charcoals, and she said 4:30. She proceeded to nap out on the sofa, so I asked her what time she wanted to get up - she said 4:30, so she could start the coals. Well, I actually had a hankering to start the coals, myself - had never used a chimney starter before, and wanted to give it a try. So, 4:30 rolls around, and I start the coals (should have known better). 4:35, I wake W and tell her I started the coals. She gets up all frantic and starts doing various things to get food ready, being just snappy enough that I didn't really notice. I mentioned to her that we hadn't soaked any wood chips for smoking, and I hadn't gotten any ready, then she went off on me about "I'll take care of things, okay?!!!" I simply said "Look, I wasn't trying to get on your case.... I'll be outside." Sometimes, she'll wake up from sleep and be rather off, usually due to a bad dream or something - so, I chalked it up to that. But, she continued to be huffy, so I asked her if she was upset I lit the charcoals - just a clear straight question, no emphasis I was upset at being snapped at, which is usually what I'd do. She said she had wanted to do it. A while later, she said "I'm sorry, it's just that it's all a timing thing, and I didn't have the chicken ready." I said "I understand." and left it at that. Admittedly, I should have thought of this timing issue, woken her up, and *asked* if I should/could light the charcoals. What stinks is there ended up not being enough charcoals, the fire wasn't hot enough, and the chicken didn't cook enough on the grill, so she had to finish it in the oven. But, she didn't evidence any upset after her 'apology'.
We ended up having a decent time at the outdoor concert, having a few cups of wine, and laughing at the girls as they danced to the music. I'm seeing a trend with this alcohol thing. I'm not the type to liquor someone up for my purposes, be they altruistic or otherwise; but, it darn sure is tempting, just so we can have a good *close* time. Ah, well - we've got a family event coming up for July 4th - she's bound to get drunk at that, on her own accord.
Anyway, this is the first "fight" we've had since d-day. I handled it partly how I usually would, in that when I was alone outside I just kind of sat and "meditated" (deep breathing to calm down, etc) - but, I refrained from snapping back and pushing the fight to prove I was "right" or "in the clear" about my actions - ie. I just let it slide. Not sure if this was entirely DB or not. Seems like the "sucking it up" passive part of being passive-aggressive, and I'm afraid of just blowing some day during one of these types of fights.
I think God is conspiring against W going to church. We haven't been since shortly before d-day. Today, one of our D2s was running a fever, and while it's not high enough to keep us from going out at all, W didn't want to put her around the other kids. I even offered to take slightly-sick D to run some errands while W and other D go to church, and W said "No, we'll go as a family when we can go" (or something similar) - was good to hear that little bit.
Forgot about one thing about Saturday. W and I have had this tradition of buying a shared gift every anniversary. Essentially, antique prints from this one particular store. We bought our 4th anniversary one in early April, and I got a call shortly before d-day (5/1) that it was ready. We hadn't had a chance to pick it up, and I'd been thinking about it frequently over the last couple weeks. The store is right by my office, so I was planning on picking it up myself next week during lunch. On Saturday, W mentioned we needed to go pick it up - first mention of it by either of us since d-day. I doubt her saying it means anything, but the gift is one of those reminder items that has been tough for me to deal with - probably doesn't mean anything to her except some piece of art at this point. Anyway, we ended up not getting over that way on Saturday. I ended up over in that area by myself today, so I picked it up. Brought it home and W commented how great the prints turned out, joked about hanging them on her side of the bed, and that was that. No reading of meaning off of her - man, she is just so walled off from me these days.
As far as today as a whole went, I was in a rather bad mood. W is going on an archaeological dig in relation to school this coming weekend - she'll be gone Friday and Saturday nights. I have every suspicion that OM is going to meet up with her there - previous evidence and too good of an opportunity to pass up. I think it was thinking about this that had me in a bad mood. What made it worse was W was in a snappy mood today - snapped at me, snapped at my mom (which REALLY pisses me off, so made my mood worse). I think today was my first day of totally not being able to hide my feelings. I tried being "zen" and convert my bad mood to something better by deep breathing, thinking happy thoughts, and such. It worked ever so slightly - just enough to get me to dinner, which we were having with my mom and D2s at Benihana's. That went quite well, and I'm in a better mood now, but today was one of those days that made me realize how hard it really is to not do something stupid and take that "one step back". (W is also going to the arch dig later this month - at least my mom is going with her that time (mom is into archaeology).)
as a while ago she had decided that she didn't want you so much any more, and you want her to rethink that whole notion. So allow closeness but don't push it - those are the keys.
Definitely if I figure how much I'm paying my C, the $14 for the book isn't going to break the bank! (and it just might help us stay on the same track)