Sitch Summary * Married since Apr 2002 (4 yr as of this writing) - together since Dec 1999 - living together since approx June 2000 * 2 kids - twin 2 yr old girls * W in PA that started out as OEA then OA * Approx start of OA: 8/1/2006 (EA before that for practically as long as they knew each other) * Approx start of PA: Feb 2006, with low frequency/opportunity for physical contact since then * D-day: 5/1/2006, with confrontation that evening (STRONG suspicion just before this, when I walked in on her in a strange situation; slight suspicion since Nov 2005)
Confrontation discussion (4 hours summarized) Me: We have something serious to discuss, and I will find it hard to say what I need to, so please let me talk until I've posed a question. .... No matter what's happened, I want our marriage to work. ... I know you're having an A with <OM>. ... Are you willing to work on our marriage? Her: ... Can I ask one question? ... How do you know? Me: I feel that is immaterial right now. [She hasn't asked since and has changed no communication patterns with OM.] ... Me: Do you want to work on this marriage? Her: I'm not sure ... Her: What do you want? Me: I want (1) to see a marriage counselor,... Her: Okay Me: ... and (2) you to stop talking to <OM> immediately. Her: ...... I can't do that (Note, the rest of the 4 hours was talking about pre-R pasts and stuff - mostly me listening. Otherwise "opening up" type conversation, and a lot of stuff we'd talked about in the past, but mostly felt like avoiding the subject at hand.)
Other statements of interest: Her: Our girls will live in this house, with you as father, and me as mother - <OM> knows this. Her: No matter what, I want you to see a therapist about reducing your stress level. [I agreed and already have - see below.]
Misc / On-going * W has completely walled herself off from me emotionally. She displays a constant facade of happiness to contentment, but no sad, anger, etc. She's VERY good at this - is only truly open to one person at a time, and right now that person is OM. * OM is married, but working toward a divorce (their relationship had supposedly been going downhill when he and my W met) * A is still going strong, so far as I can tell. * We've had one subsequent discussion about the A, when she got drunk at a family gathering (we snuck off to talk afterward). She gave me some rather false hope ("We'll get through this") and told one rather big lie (the first complete lie I've caught her in - usually it's been a warping or omission of truths). * W has been very open about her relationship with OM, except about the A, of course. * We haven't been meeting each others' EN for quite some time, but we had a nice night w/o the kids *just* before their OA started and talked about how the kids had strenghthened our relationship. :P * W has evidenced no remorse or regret for the A. * We haven't set up MC, and I'm now reluctant to after hearing the lack of usefulness, and potential harm, in this sort of sitch.
Current Personal Goals (GAL / DB'ing?) Have done: * Started reading DR (picked up SI) * Started seeing an IC - three visits, so far. I think it should work out well, as I now have some goals about improving myself for my sake; although, not sure if I'll keep this IC as she doesn't take my insurance. :P * W was out of town recently for 9 days, during which I planned things with family and friends, rather than sit at home alone. * Planned more with friends for the coming weeks. (Normally, we don't do anything on weeknights.) * Cleaned the house more than it's been clean in a long time. It's been a semi-pit, which has been bugging me - having it clean picks up my spirits a good deal. (Even got a "thank you" twice from W about it when she got back.) * Going swimming every night possible (we own a pool).
Plan to do: * Go to the gym on a regular basis (once a week, for now). Plan on signing up this week and starting week after next. * Meet up with old friends that have been getting together every week (W and I will trade off weeks, as they're our shared friends - trade off b/c someone has to stay home with the kids. Maybe get a babysitter every once in a while.) * Work on models or some other hobby like that which I enjoyed in younger days. * Take guitar lessons - something I've wanted to do for a long time. * Poker nights with a few guy friends on a regular basis. * Clean out the garage and start woodworking.
(Note: You'll see me mention snooping below - my official first day of no snooping AT ALL was today - wish me luck in keeping it up.)
If you read my first link above, you'll see the first update to my sitch. Basically, W went on a 9 day trip with our 2 D2's to her home town, visiting her parents. Through snooping, I discovered that OM was going to stay at the same hotel W and D2's were staying at - he'd be there the last 4 nights. Further, they planned on using a baby monitor to allow her to go to his room while leaving the girls in her room (bad bad bad). Prior to d-day, she had told me that she was going to meet up with OM for a day just to run around. So, on d-day, I told her she can't see him when she's there (ie. if she wants to work on this marriage). She later told me she has to see him so she can say some things to him face-to-face - implying a cut off, but not explicitly stated. She also told me they planned to not talk for 3 months after this trip, which I saw no evidence of in their on-going communication, before or after the trip (the first and only "big lie" I feel I've caught her in).
W got back this past Sunday evening. She picked up some bug while there, so was relatively sick the next couple of days. This, plus being away from OM, seemed to have her in a bad mood, so she was spouting negativity all over the place - I just detached myself and let her go on. Her spirits seemed to have picked up by yesterday, and she's less sick. Being around each other is still a bit funky - just not sure what to say or do, so I do little more than respond when talked to.
Next: My Snooping Knowledge (or, What I Wish I Didn't Know)
(If you're still here, thanks for sticking around. I know my description of my sitch isn't quite as lively as Believing_Isaiah's. If you're reading, Believing, thanks for your story - hope you feel better soon.)
Through on-going snooping, I've discovered the following specific things (that I'd love to forget)…
* I know of every instance when they've had opportunity to have PA ("only" three, until…) * OM stayed in the same hotel with her on that trip (see above) * OM bought her a cell phone, which he gave to her on that trip - through more snooping, I even have the phone number (would be funny to just call it, no? … yeah… funny) * Their sexual (online or otherwise) relationship is all about BDSM, something from her past that we never revived to any great extent (not that I'd be opposed - she just had seemed to put it mostly in her past… and, according to her, I'm not "broken" enough (she said this to me during aforementioned drunkenness)). * Their emotional relationship is all about shared pain and comfort/protection. (God help our girls psyches if these two end up together with custody.)
Knowing these things has really hindered my actions. So, if you're snooping, as everyone else says on here... STOP SNOOPING. It's an obsession and it will attract all of your focus energy. Don't snoop - focus on better things, like DB'ing, improving yourself, making yourself happy, and realizing you will make it through even if the marriage doesn't.
I had my third IC visit today. Our first session was basically me offloading my sitch, with a little discussion of my past - no new realizations or much helpfulness, but identified that I've had this sort of low lying depression throughout my life (again, nothing new). Parting comment was I should stop snooping. Second session, we got a bit into my passive-aggressive behavior. I certainly feel like this has had a negative impact to my past and current relationships, including my marriage. I hope to focus on this more throughout the sessions, as I feel it will have the most positive impact on all my relationships, not just my marriage. During the second session, we also discussed my on-going snooping and she suggested I ask W to change her email password. I said I'd rather try to stop on my own, because I hadn't even tried, yet. So, I set a goal to stop snooping on the day of my next session, which was today, and so far so good.
That brings us to today's session, from which I need the kind advice from you folks. Our primary focus in this session ended up being that I should spill the beans on what I know, how I know, and how it is affecting me. That's paraphrasing, and I'm working off of deteriorating memory. IC said I should tell W about having been reading her email, knowing about the trip, the cell phone, and a couple other things; and, that no matter how much it has all hurt, no matter the pain and anger I'm feeling, I still want to work on the M. She said I should say that W doesn't have to respond, but that I just need to get some things "out on the table". Her concern is that there's an "elephant in the room that nobody's talking about", and I'm going to keep this stuff bottled up inside until it blows up in a typical passive-aggressive way. My concern is that this would basically be me bringing up the A - a no-no from what I'm reading here. Is this idea of putting stuff on the table, or just getting it off my chest a good or bad idea??
If I do come forward on my snooping, I won't be doing so until after my next IC session, which is a week from this Friday. I just so don't feel ready. W hasn't mentioned ANYTHING about the A, except tonight she mentioned the original MC her IC (for ADD) recommended - we both thought that MC was likely a nutjob, so didn't bother setting up an appointment, and haven't discussed it much since - it was in the context of her telling her IC the MC is a nutjob at their appointment today. But, other than that brief mention, nothing about *going* to an MC, or about the A. So weird. Maybe I'll have to get us drunk again. :P
Not sure what anyone else thinks, but I wouldn't mention anything to your W about the snooping or what you know. This will only serve to justify her actions by proving to her that YOU are doing something wrong, betraying her. If you look at the affairees as two people in immature states of mind, then by "proving" yourself a common enemy you give them something to bond over and this will serve only to strengthen their relationship.
Also, this kind of approach (voicing your emotions) has the potential to turn the conversation into a battle over whose feelings are more important, because they are both at odds here. I think that detachment is critical here. You understand that this road you are headed down is painful, but you want to work through it despite this. You own your behavior and it is up to you not to behave in a passive-aggressive way – whether you involve her or not. It's difficult, to say the least, but you can do this. Vent here, or to trusted friends. I've even found that letting loose a primal scream every now and again in the car helps to let that bottled up energy out. Your emotions are important, but not to someone in an EA. Keep in mind that you are doing what you are doing for the greater good of your family while your W is in a very selfish place. Once she has moved beyond this, your feelings will be relevant.
You have already voiced your perspective on the A, and she is aware of it. The only thing that will make you feel better if you talk about it is if she were to agree to end it - and that's not going to happen. You have no control here – the only thing you can do is to make it last longer. I think of this whole process as a kind of Zen-like one where you have to give up all attempts to control the situation or your W in order to have control when you need it. If you are consumed with your futile attempts at manipulating or controlling the situation then you will miss the critical opportunity when it arises.
Just my opinions here, hope they’re of some value.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: Our primary focus in this session ended up being that I should spill the beans on what I know, how I know, and how it is affecting me.
First, let me say that Michelle in both DB and DR talks about her views on counseling and how it sometimes hurts as much as helps. That said, I know my C has suggested certain things that were not "DB" and I either followed her advice or I didn't. Actually, if she says something that conflicts with DB, or my personal interpretation of it, I just ask her to clarify, telling her why I don't accept what she is saying or don't agree with it. Usually the exchange that ensues will result in either my C sticking by what she said but leaving it up to me to follow through with it, or more often than not, my C understanding my point of view, why it fits in with how I am doing things, and her backing me on my decisions.
I don't know if my relationship with my C is normal, in that I question some of what she says, but that's the way I feel I get the most out of it. I can't just take what she says as gospel any more than I do DB (even thought it seems like I do most of the time). Now, over time, this C has won my trust and I am now more open to her suggestions that go "off the board" because I am sure she accepts my "DB" plan and is willing to work within it's framework.
Now, back to your sitch, do you feel like your C understands your focus on self and not initiating R talks? Does she know you don't have R talks and why? If you think she does know, support and understand these things, then maybe you listen to her on this.
The point is that each "expert" will have his or her own take on this stuff, and counselors, in my mind are experts (at least THEY think they are). Your C knows your sitch and is telling you what she thinks is best for YOU, but maybe not what's best for your marriage. I know that sounds like it's right up the DB alley, i.e. focus on you and not the marriage, but it's not really because DB is focus on self that should eventually lead to reconciliation, this "spilling the beans" is all about YOU feeling better, admittedly not worrying at all about what it does to your W or your chances of reconciliation.
As for you keeping this in and then reacting in a passive/aggressive way, well, all I can tell you is that I was, and may still be, one of the most passive/aggressive people alive. I act like a little child sometimes, it's really sick. I pout, act out, basically do ANYTHING but be direct and honest. I have worked VERY hard to put this behind me and it will be a constant fight for me, much like an addict has to fight for the rest of their life to resist the source of their addiction.
Like you, I wanted my C sessions to focus on this aspect of my issue and we have. She has helped me in a way that really parallels DB (even though she'd never heard of it when I started with her) learn to center myself and realize that I have NO control over my W, passive, aggressive or otherwise. She made me see how destructive this kind of behavior was and I was just able to see that and stop that. Sure, I slip up all the time, but for me, the issue is not keeping things bottled up, but understanding that when they come "uncorked" I want it to be in a controlled, direct way. That is my entire focus in terms of communication with my W these days. Some days I succeed, others I don't.
I can assure you, I have a LOT of stuff that is off the table still, but in my sitch, I had patience with this stuff, kept it to myself, and one night, a R talk started when it was "time" to let her in on some of what I knew and when I did, it was in a way that was CONSTRUCTIVE to my sitch, not destructive.
I think the main thing to remember here, and in DB, is that there is a LOT of stuff we choose to endure for the sake of our marriage, and in the name of self-growth. Keeping "snooped" stuff to yourself is just another one of those things.
In the end, your C, if she's good, should be able to counsel you on what the best course of action is for saving your marriage. Try to see if that's what she's trying to do.
Thank ya'll for the advice. I think I'm going to have to figure out how to explain the concepts of DB to my C and make sure she's on board with letting me follow this path, even if she isn't going to target that herself. One of my stated goals during our first session (ie. for our sessions overall) was to improve myself, regardless of what's going on with the M. She might be taking this a little too far, and like you say, suggesting things that help *me*, but not the M. I did question heavily the idea of spilling the beans, stating that W is so far into her fantasy world right now that it won't do any good for the M and might actually hurt it - but, C did think it would be best for *me* to do this. I honestly feel that I *can* bottle this stuff up and release it later calmly - and if I can't do it calmly, then I will walk away until I can. But, actually thinking about it further and discussing with a friend, none of the items I feel the need to dump really eats at me like the overall A does - they're just more little tidbits. So far, I think I've said only two stupid things during our A and R talks (of which there were 3) - each was a negative comment about OM, which fell on deaf ears and was countered, so I won't make that mistake again.
Part of my problem in discussing this with my C is that I can't explain DB too well, and things like not discussing the A or R. I don't know if it's going to just take more reading of DR (the book I have) or DB (should I buy this?) to be able to explain this myself. It seems every time I mention something about DB, I say it slightly wrong and my C is like "hrm, I don't know about that", and I have to double back and say "well, I explained it slightly wrong." Is there anywhere that has a good summary of what DB is all about? Is it something I can pull from one of the books and just have my C read?
I need to vent briefly. So, I've been taking good care of the house, making sure it stays clean - picking up after myself, the girls, and even W at times. W has been thankful here and there. My C was worried I'm setting a precedent for something I can't keep up with in the long run - she may be right, but as I figure it, I'm doing this 90% for me (stress relief and general happiness with my surroundings) and 10% so W has no nits she can pick with me. Well, this morning I moved a couple of things in an attempt to keep things straight, and as it turns out W had put them in those specific spots to grab in the morning. As I was packing up to leave for work, she comes trucking through the living room and says, in a laughing-but-I-know-to-be-serious tone, "I know you're just trying to help, but you've been a completely counterproductive this morning." and proceeded to tell me it was those two things I moved. Of course, inside I wanted to say "f you b**tch. you can shove your 'counterproductives' up your a$$ and pi$$ off." - instead, I just said "sorry about that", finished packing up, and left after giving our girls a kiss goodbye.
I recently finished reading the part of DR that discusses criticism vs compliments/praise. I've known I've been bad about this in the past - I lay down small to medium criticism so much more frequently and easily than compliments/praise. Definitely something I've been slowly working on even before the A and will continue to work on. This morning made me realize that W is almost as bad as I am about this (although, she's better about frequent compliments/praise), and assuming things work out, she's damn sure got stuff to work on herself.
One nice thing did happen today, which seemed particularly nice since I haven't been snooping, so I don't read anything into it. W called me at work this morning to tell me she wasn't feeling well and wasn't going to school, and talked about a few minor home things. Then as we were saying our "bye"s, she put in the quick "love you", which she has done all of maybe 3 times since d-day. I've done the same about 4 or 5 times since d-day. I try really hard to not say "I love you" at all unless in response - something I seem to have read in these message boards and books.
So, I have a couple of related questions. Is it okay to use terms of endearment? We have our names for each other (eg. "sweetie", "baby", etc.). During our R, we've rarely called each other by name - we've used our little names instead. Other question is, is it okay to initiate snuggling or spooning? We used to spoon a lot in bed, and we didn't at all after d-day until one morning she spooned me - I'm pretty sure as a test to see if I would react or return the sentiment (which things just so happened that morning that I didn't get a chance, although I would have liked to). Then, I started spooning her a few times. She's spooned me once since, and the last time was when I spooned her a couple of nights ago. It just feels odd and a little like pursuing, because she doesn't seem to initiate it all that much, and when she does, I'm reading things into it (testing, guilt, etc.)
