I think I'm locked - my reply to the last post is this:
Ford - Thanks for the advice, and in a way, I'm following it. The "do what works, don't do what doesn't" plan is in effect with me. The waiting forever for her as she digs her hole deeper wasn't tolerable anymore, so I've started the ball rolling on two things: 1. Initiate separation planning. 2. Start conversations with her using very carefully crafted man-woman dialog techniques that allow me to illuminate some points to her that she seems to want to ignore - logical, salient things that I know she can see. One of the DB things I'm uncomfortable with is treating her like she can't or won't deal with reality. That's certainly true in some situations, but not in mine.
I'm not sure how successful any of this will be, but the prior plan was just making her departure comfortable. Don't get me wrong - we are NOT arguing, I'm just asking REALLY probing quastions about her thoughts and letting her answer them to herself or me - doesn't matter if I hear them or not, as long as she can see the illogic of her actions and statements.
I'll keep everyone here posted, but I'll make one critical point before closing: Communication TECHNIQUE appears to be everything - more important than the words you use....
Quote: Start conversations with her using very carefully crafted man-woman dialog techniques that allow me to illuminate some points to her that she seems to want to ignore - logical, salient things that I know she can see. One of the DB things I'm uncomfortable with is treating her like she can't or won't deal with reality. That's certainly true in some situations, but not in mine.
What do you mean by this? Go into more detail. What are these techniques?
Men are from Mars/Women are from Venus is FULL of these techniques and does a GREAT job of illustrating the differences in communication styles of the sexes. A "must read" for most of us I think.
As usual, Grasshopper is right - Mars/Venus is an example, and there are others out there as well. I think the key is to ask questions - Careful, well-timed questions - to allow my W to see the bigger picture of where I am, and where she's going. I have to credit her with being smart enough to see that big picture, but first she has to be slowed down enough to see the scenery a bit - she's really "executing her plan" for a new life and not considering the facts as they were, or as they are. What she wants and what she's accepting are radically different things, and she'll see that in time - time we don't have.
I've remained detached in large part - no "I love you" BS or anything like that - and have stayed on my GAL plan extremely consistently. They are, as many have said, good ideas no matter what. The difference is the questions I've been asking to encourage her to THINK. It's working, but not yet "successful".....
I have to admit to being somewhat skeptical when I first read of your "new plan" to basically try to get her to "think" about these things. I have softened a bit but I am still worried about one thing.
It seems like you are accepting YOUR perspective as the correct one and that what SHE "accepts" or her perspective is "wrong". You may be right, but I have come to think of VERY little in married life as right and wrong, just two different perspectives.
Since validation is one of the keys to communication, I see your campaign of "mind changing" as dangerously close to invalidating your W's position altogether.
That all said, I understand where you are coming from and if it works for you, then more power to you. You think there are certain things she is just not seeing and want to make sure she does. I just wouldn't be too surprised if you find out that she saw them all along, just in a different way than you do. That may be why it's "not working" so far. She may very well be "seeing" your point and just doesn't agree.
What GH says makes me realize why it is so much easier to take the stand that there is no point in talking to our WAS. Because if they "can not get it, so why bother?" it is easier to deal with than having to accept that our POV is "wrong" to them. I know I am 100% guilty of being hopeful that my H will have an epiphany, an awakening, and suddenly see it all my way. Then we could live happily ever after, right? Oh my God, how arrogant is that... Sorry deezee, I want it that way so badly, but probably I need to eat more humble pie first. Where did I go when we were in an argument? I can be an overly educated, superior, self-righteous, know-it-all, and still seem like I'm being "helpful". Painful.
What I am aware of, is that my DBing needs to include deep self-evaluation of my part in the sitch, what I did and didn't do that added to my H's stress and dissatisfaction. And hopefully some day, H will have his own realizations about some things he did that contributed to the shake up of our M and pain that he caused me. And then, maybe, we will decide that we both have enough humility and enough energy and commitment, that we can work on our M together. In my sitch that is a long way off however, but I remain hopeful.
What I can say to you deezee, is be careful ! I know in my sitch, if I tried to tell my H what I see (what I think) about what he is doing (the A, the OW, poor choices, bad impacts on loved ones, etc) I would drive him away faster than I could complete the sentence. My H has no tolerance and so much disdain for me when I tell him what to do. And that is an aspect of what that is. I am convinced he would just run to OW fast as could be. He needs to find his own way. Do I wish we were seeing eye to eye right now? Oh yes! Do I think my H is doing some things that are wrong, or bad? Yes, I do. But I am quite sure I will know when my H is in agreement with me, and he will probably tell me. Until then I will be as agreeable in demeanor as I can be, button my lips when I can not speak kindly, and accept the fact that my H is not seeing things the same way I do right now (and perhaps not even clearly... who knows). But this is his timetable not mine. I will be telling my truth as part of my self expression in small doses as time goes on - it is necessary at some point if we are to move forward. But first, my H has to show interest in me, and then later he will show interest in what I think and have to say (I hope!).
Deezee, you said waiting for her to come up with her own thoughts/realizations would take too much time - time you do not have. How is that? Is someone dying? Otherwise, I recommend giving her some space and respect to discover herself and her own timing for things. Patience my friend.
My two cents. I hope you were asking... And I apologize for being very cheeky if you were not.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
Thanks all for your input - I know exactly what you're saying and agree with most all of it. Much of my discussion with W centers around asking her questions, posed as if I'm simply curious, to make sure she thinks through some of her decisions/opinions. Allowing her to continue making irrational conclusions and validating them is NOT going to help her or me - for instance, when she says are marriage was terrible from start to finish, I might ask her "Do you remember any good times - we did get married for a reason, don't you think?", and then just let her answer and form some thoughts. That's pretty general, but it's an idea of what I'm doing. Few if any of my actual opinions or beliefs ever get voiced. It's all about her and her thoughts when we talk. The only time I'll assert myself is regarding my son, where it's just too dangerous to agree with radical stuff.
She can definitely see the new me, because she gets angry if there's a sign of backsliding - and why should she care, if we're not going to be together? Interestingly, a few weeks ago, she DIDN'T care. Anger is sometimes a good thing, as long as it isn't unchecked/irratinal. And it beats the hell out of apathy.....
Quote: Allowing her to continue making irrational conclusions and validating them is NOT going to help her or me - for instance, when she says are marriage was terrible from start to finish, I might ask her "Do you remember any good times - we did get married for a reason, don't you think
Guy, this VERY thing is often used as an example in DB/DR and most places discussing the idea of validation in relation to one partner thinking the marriage has gone bad. What you are doing is OPPOSITE of what is suggested. You are 100% invalidating her when you say this. You say it would do neither of you any good to do otherwise and I disagree. IF you learned to validate her, i.e. "Yes, I can see why you may think our marriage has been $hit.", you can let her see that you support her and HEAR her, which is something she DOES NOT think right now. She keeps telling you there is nothing to work on, that the marriage is crap in her eyes, etc and you keep on going as if her ideas are complete lunacy. THEY ARE NOT lunacy at all, they are HER ideas, formed based on HER experiences, which you are invalidating and making her feel stupid for having/feeling. The more you do this, the more she feels resentment for you.
I hope you understand that validation IS NOT agreeing with her, it is merely hearing and accepting her point of view, then letting HER know that you heard her and accept what she said. You can then disagree all you want but to disagree with someones feelings is usually unproductive at best.
Not understanding about validation played a LARGE part in the issues in my marriage. I would CONSTANTLY invalidate my W's point of view in a constant struggle to be "right" all the time. I never even knew I was doing it. Then, when I started to learn about how to validate I thought "yea, but I DON'T agree with what she's saying so why act like I do?" It took awhile, and more reading (Mars/Venus is another good place to read some of this) to understand that what I was really supposed to be doing is letting my W know that I was listening and respecting her feelings WITHOUT offering MY opinion most of the time. Again, saying you know how SHE could FEEL or THINK that the marriage was crap is not the same as saying YOU think it was crap. There is a difference, one that can mean your W thinking "wow, he's really listening to me" and "this man will NEVER listen to or understand me."
Please, I really think some of what you are doing is having the opposite effect as you think it is. The more you question her, attempting to get certain answers from her, the more you push her away, IMHO.
Also, BTW, YES she knows there were good times mixed in with the bad but clearly she is focused on the bad times, something that SHE doesn't think YOU know much about.
If you have not read Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, I would suggest it to you TODAY. It WILL help you understand why some of what you are doing (not validating and taking your W's irrational rants as fact rather than temporary venting) is probably not the best course of action.
GH - I hear you, and agree. Truthfully, I was short on time this a.m. and I type slow, so I did a poor explanation of what I'm trying here. Validation of her feelings and opinions occurs on a non-stop basis with me, and I never "argue" her points at all. My example above is pretty poor - I'll give you a REAL one:
Me: Do you remember how you used to say that I was "shutting you down" when you had ideas or wanted things? Her: Oh, yeah.... Me: Well, I finally understand what you meant by that. I've been learning a lot about how men and women communicate, and I understand what happened and how unfair it was to you. So many times you asked a question that should have started a conversation, and I treated it like a simple answer was all you wanted - and I should have known better.
There's more, and some of them are a little "rougher", because when she says unrealistic things about the OM, I'll ask a question about it. Example:
Her: He offsets some of my personality traits in a good way - for instance, he's a real saver and I like to spend. Me: Doesn't it seem odd to you that I'm a saver and you always hated that about me? Her: (quietly) It's just different, I guess...
Another:
Me: He seems to be much more committed and in love with you than you are him - is that true? Her: Oh, hell yes....I don't even want him driving my vehicle. But he's really nice to me, which is so unlike you, and that's what I need. He'd cut off his hand if I told him to! Me: Do you think you'll have a lasting relationship with him? Her: I don't know, but I'm going to give him a shot. I know he'll never hurt me.
There's more, but I make no judgements about her answers - NONE - not even to myself, really, because I don't have a window to her soul. These questions and this communication is a major 180 for me, because I was depressed and withdrawn for so long. Perhaps that's why I'm seeing positive results.
Ok Dee, well put and I see that I was off base. So long as you are not constantly invalidating her, and it seems like you at least know how NOT to do that, then good for you.
