yea i do feel i need to change. i thought i did until she came home and was not happy, i again became the fixer and controller. i thought i lost those traits. but i did not and could not, i tried to fix it and controll how she was feeling and blamed her for it. if you read my post in the last week you could tell i was falling back into those traits really hard and fast. she is right, i did not change and could not in regards to these behaviers. so the chips have fallen and now i have to live with my actions. i am somewhat sad, but not as bad as the first time i thought she was leaving. the last week i knew this was going to happen, i guess it is meant to be like she says. we are not good for each other.
muddlethrough: you sure warned me huh. my thick head did not listen. such is life i guess. i dont know if i can change for the good. i tried and did not succeed. well i thought i tried. i emailed her a long email this morning, thinking she would not respond, but guess what (she did) and she seemed pretty sad and told me she was sorry for last night, that she is scared of what is to come of us just like i am. she told me that she thought that my email must have been pretty hard for me to write, and she thanked me for writing it. so i know she loves me, but it is not enough to make a marriage work. i understand that now. im not trying to be negitive, that is not what i am trying to do, i am just accepting the facts as they are now. i have to listen to what she said and believe her. she says its over, and that is that.
Acceptance is good, and the only way you can truly change. It took me a long time to understand that I had to accept my wife was experiencing a different reality than I was, and that she equally "right" in that reality. I still fight to understand where she's coming from, and I know there's a huge amount of "other" stuff - misplaced guilt and blame that makes it incredibly difficult to interact with her. At the beginning, it was convenient, safe and comfortable to believe that her reality was entirely fantasy and one day she would snap out and return to our reality - but this is not the case. My accepting of her reality was only really possible once I was able to accept that MY reality was equally flawed and based in fantasy. This was not easy to admit, because it stripped me of the sense of entitlement I had, thinking I was the one that was right and being betrayed - but it made me stronger in the sense that I could get closer to the truth within me. I accepted that things were not what I had accepted them to be for so long and I started to look at myself more honestly and critically. I was able to start the ball rolling and make changes that matter to me. I'm nowhere near where I want to be, or need to be for that matter. But, I'm on a track. I'm progressing.
What I'm trying to say is that right now YOU need to work on yourself so that you are confident that YOU can go out and face anything that you are scared of in the future. Your W loves you, and maybe at some point her feelings about being married to you will change. But you are capable of change and growth and self improvement. You have to be willing to start small and see it through.
At this point, you have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, regardless of whether you save your M or not. You need to accept that YOU are more important than your marriage - because unless you care for yourself, no marriage you are in can work.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
still here, w and i had a long discussion on friday about what she wants. i just listened, she still does not want a divorce, yet, she just needs more time. saturday and sunday were pretty good. monday she had to work, came home after work and told me she and d8 were going to her sisters for the 4th and i would see her on wednesday. so after that had no contact with her, me and son went to the local 4th fair and had a pretty good time. i met up with alot of old friends that i have not seen in a while. i think she is moving out today, but dont know as of yet. i also think she is only prolonging the r for what ever reason she has. i have come to the point that i can and will survive without her, that i can find happyness. i am not depressed that much about my failed marriage, just disapointed. she tells me things like she still loves me, that she would like to figure herself out to involve me in her life. she is so scared that i will right her off and not be her friend. she wants me in her life in a big roll but not as a husband. WTF does that mean? she is trying to set boundies on our new seperation, like no dating, total honesty, and communication about feelings. these are her boundies, but i am getting sick and tired of what she wants. its time i start doing what i want, but the biggest thing is my marriage and i can not have that so i will let it go. my rollercoaster has come to an end, i one month i went from wife talking to me again, moving home, to now leaving so she can find her way, i hear that all the time. its my time now.
Ah shippd...your ride is far from over, even if you manage to grab the controls my friend.
Quote: w and i had a long discussion on friday about what she wants. i just listened...
Good. It's really good to be able to do this, especially when they are saying things that we flat out don't agree with, or sound stupid, silly, or otherwise nonsensical.
Quote: she still does not want a divorce, yet, she just needs more time.
So, are you willing to, or able to give her this without surgically removing her from your life, thoughts and heart? If so, she SEEMS to be telling you to back off, GAL, become more "you" and let her have the time and space to figure things out for herself without the constant pressure of your "needs".
Quote: think she is moving out today, but don't know as of yet. i also think she is only prolonging the r for what ever reason she has.
Um, ok, she IS prolonging the R for, well, maybe the reasons she TOLD YOU ABOUT. Maybe, just maybe, she's as confused as you are and doesn't know what she wants and needs TIME AND SPACE to figure it out. Whether she moves out or not, you have to STOP reading her mind and deciding that either you know more than she does about why she's doing what she's doing, or that she's lying to you every step of the way. YOU DON'T KNOW what she's doing or why so stop speculating.
Quote: i have come to the point that i can and will survive without her, that i can find happyness. i am not depressed that much about my failed marriage, just disappointed.
Good! Seriously, this is really good. I know it's hard to get to that point, but when you really realize that you can and will find happiness on your own, you will start to see things in a better light. Also, once you decide this is possible, the next step is making it possible WITH people you love in the picture. What I mean by that is realizing that you can make yourself happy and ensure your own happiness without extracting your W or anyone else from your life. That's the essence of detachment; realizing that you can maintain YOUR emotional balance in the presence of someone who is emotionally unbalanced. In other words, it's GREAT to find the strength to make your own smiles on a daily basis, now take the next step and do it in the company of others who may, or may not contribute to your happiness.
Quote: she tells me things like she still loves me, that she would like to figure herself out to involve me in her life. she is so scared that i will right her off and not be her friend. she wants me in her life in a big roll but not as a husband. WTF does that mean?
First of all, and for the most part, who cares WTF it means.
It's BS for a couple reasons. First, we're told for good reason to basically not listen to anything they say, especially when they are trying to predict the future. If we are horrible because we try to read their minds all the time, they are because they try to tell us how they'll feel in a week, month or year from now. She has NO freaking clue what role she'll want you to play in the future. She only knows that today, July 5th, 2006, you are not someone she sees herself being married to, or to a lesser extent, in a romantic relationship with. That is ALL based on the current set of dynamics and the current situation. Dynamics change second by second, as do situations.
BUT, if she persists with the whole "If we D I want us to be the best of friends" routine, you simply tell her that while you would be interested in maintaining a cordial relationship for the kid's sake, you will not be able to be there for her in the way you thinks she'd want you to be. It would not be fair to you. It's not out of spite at all, merely reflecting your need to move on to the rest of your life, a life that really, other than when it pertains to the kids, does not really have to involve her.
That all said, you can always maintain that as of today, you feel (just like she feels that she will ALWAYS feel certain ways) that you will always love her and have a place in your heart for her should she decide that she wants to try again.
Quote: she is trying to set boundaries on our new separation, like no dating, total honesty, and communication about feelings.
I want to be clear. She SAID these things to you? She said that there needs to be no dating, honesty and open communication and somehow you don't like these things? WTH more could you ask for? IF, and that's a BIG if, she's sincere about these commitments, then it seems like she's almost setting up a tailor made situation for BOTH of you to get your $hit straight. Again, why do you not like this again? I am really confused. Are you trying to save your marriage or just be in control of everything?
If these conditions were YOUR conditions on separation, and SHE were the one balking, I could understand a bit better.
Is it that you feel the need to date, stop communicating and never express how you feel?
Quote: these are her boundaries, but i am getting sick and tired of what she wants. its time i start doing what i want
Pardon me if this sounds a bit juvenile. The R is about what you BOTH want. She can no more set boundaries for you than you can her. She can't dictate to you what you do when you are separated but she CAN ask you to agree to certain things. Again (sorry for the dead horse beating) but why could you not live with these "conditions" since they SEEM to favor your marriage and the hope of saving it more than not. Maybe I am WAY off base with that. Other opinions anyone?
Quote: but the biggest thing is my marriage and i can not have that so i will let it go.
Um, I guess this is a unilateral decision on your part right? You W hasn't told you that, and even when she does, she says something different the next day. Nobody here has looked at your sitch and pronounced it dead. I think you mean to say "i can not have that RIGHT NOW so I will let it go." If you are willing to lose your W because you lack the patience to give this process time, then fine, but it seems to me there is a lot to fight for here.
Quote: my roller-coaster has come to an end, i one month i went from wife talking to me again, moving home, to now leaving so she can find her way, i hear that all the time. its my time now.
Sounds like the kid who takes his ball and goes home. Be very clear (based on what you posted here...if there is more to the story, you left it out) from what you posted here, your W seems to be asking for time and space and you are hearing "it's over and we'll never be together". That's up to YOU to interpret what she's saying that way. You SAY you listened to her but yet you still persist on putting your personal spin on everything she says and does.
So freaking what if she needs time/space to find her way. I get that you wouldn't be happy unless she just walked in today, admitted how much of an a-hole she is and begged your forgiveness, then went on to be the perfect W, never unhappy (because that would mean going back to the "old" times and unacceptable) and live with you, in your present state of being.
Please, if you can find a way to yes, DO YOUR OWN THING, without that meaning you have to "give up" on your W, do that. You do need to let go of your attachment to her, but you do NOT have to give up on her.
first off, i truly feel like im being played here. 1)when i want to go do something anything she calls me and calls me. tries to come along also. 2)she still has sex with me, the last time was monday morning, so she has to have attraction with me. 3)she shuts me out when she dosnt want me around, like monday evening, she came home knowing we had plans for the 4th and changed them, left for two days and had no contact with me. she has since called and asked what me and s14 did and was sorry for not calling. i am telling you, she is totally messed up. she is on again off again every hour. as for her boundies, i think she is setting them so i will stay and do nothing, truly i believe that is what she is doing, she wants to go do whatever she wants but when i do she wants to go along or calls. yes i should be happy about those boundies, but i feel i will be the only one sticking to them. she knows other women has intrest in me, she does not like that, and she believes i am the jeoulse type, so is she. i know i havent posted everything only the things that really bother me. and to you i seem very inpationant, which in a way i am, but her mood and thoughts change on an hour to hour time frame. i feel subconciously i am pushing her to move out and find her way, i know now more than anytime before she needs to miss me, be jeoulious, and know that this is her choice, and she must live with her decisions. my problem is i am too loving, caring, and now i can not give that to her anymore, until she longs for it again.
Quote: 1)when i want to go do something anything she calls me and calls me. tries to come along also. 2)she still has sex with me, the last time was monday morning, so she has to have attraction with me. 3)she shuts me out when she dosnt want me around, like monday evening, she came home knowing we had plans for the 4th and changed them, left for two days and had no contact with me.
Hmmm. Ok. I see your point. I still think it all looks like a woman who is more confused at what she wants than sure she wants to leave and is stalling for some reason. People doing that tend to act a lot more like my W (no affection, no sex) than yours.
Quote: i am telling you, she is totally messed up. she is on again off again every hour.
See above. And I am telling you the same thing but we are coming to two different conclusions, two different plans of action because of it. You are saying this means it's time to give up, I am saying it means it's time to DB your ass off, have patience and BE THE BETTER OPTION.
I know a TON of people here have a problem with thinking that their WAS come back to them by default or that they're somehow the 2nd choice. THE WOMAN MARRIED YOU so until she divorces you, you are the 1st choice...and then maybe the 3rd. In any event, as I said last week, it all comes down to what she wants and if that is to be married to you. Before that, it DOES come down to what YOU want. If you don't want to be married to her, and this is all too much, then walk away. It IS your choice. It always has been.
Quote: as for her boundaries, i think she is setting them so i will stay and do nothing, truly i believe that is what she is doing, she wants to go do whatever she wants but when i do she wants to go along or calls. yes i should be happy about those boundaries, but i feel i will be the only one sticking to them.
Ok, well first of all, lets get our terms straight so that we are talking about the same thing here. Boundaries, in the way most people here use them, are something that one sets for themselves to govern THEIR reaction or action in a situation. For example, if W brings home the OM to our house, I will move out. That is NOT a boundary on her, but one on YOU. YOU are deciding that if something happens, then you will react accordingly. You can choose to share your boundary or not, but it is put in place so you know how far you will allow things to go before YOU take action. It has nothing to do with your W other than she has the decision to make about whether to cross the line or not. She's free to do so.
SO, back to your sitch...What your W wants is not boundaries but a set of agreed to conditions of your separation and I agree 100% with you. IF she is not honoring those conditions than they are meaningless and not worth thinking about. However, the tricky part comes when you have to verify her breaking of the conditions. That's why it's really hard to do something like that because it encourages snooping and a certain amount of deception.
Like I said, if she is not willing to honor the conditions SHE wants in place for the separation, then they are of no use to you. FYI, in my opinion they are all things that, no matter WHAT she says or does, should be done by YOU as a matter of course. I think you should refrain from dating until after the D, be honest as you can with her, and if she wants it, be open with her about your feelings.
Quote: and to you i seem very impatient, which in a way i am, but her mood and thoughts change on an hour to hour time frame.
That's because they are. Do you not realize that this is as hard, if not much harder for her? Remember, you're only trying to save your marriage. She's trying to process her feelings for two different men, end one relationship, save another, stay independent, get her needs met, function in life, ignore history and do all that while being "messed up" as you say. Sure, I sound like I'm on her side, but as I have said in the past, there are no sides in a marriage, no real right and wrong, just two different interpretations of the same events/marriage/conversations.
Quote: i feel subconsciously i am pushing her to move out and find her way, i know now more than anytime before she needs to miss me, be jealous, and know that this is her choice, and she must live with her decisions. my problem is i am too loving, caring, and now i can not give that to her anymore, until she longs for it again.
You know what. Maybe you are right. Jealousy is not a good thing ever, but missing you, yes, you may be right. That's what going "dark" and all that is about. If she moves out, then you have to move on and GAL. You DON'T have to date though. You simply have to engage in life once again and give her a chance to miss you.
On last little slap...you say you are too loving and caring to do what you need to do. I suspect that your way of showing that love often gets misinterpreted by her as smothering and jealous behavior. She probably won't ever long for that again.
I think you COULD do this without her leaving and even if she does leave again, I am worried that if she came back, history would repeat itself because you seem so locked into somewhat negative traits of yours and even trumpet them as positive attributes. Until you change the things about you that negatively affect the dynamic with your W, your M will be hard to work on.
wife finally talked to me: when i found out about her affair i lashed out pretty bad. i said some hurtful things to her, she has taken what i said (out of anger) and now believes everything i said. i told her it was out of anger and that i did not truly mean those things and she disagrees that people say what they truly mean when they are angry. catch 22, i dont know how to respond to that. she truly feels that i dont want her, i just cant live alone. i told her that is not true, i understand how it looks like that but its not true. she dont understand how i can say things and still want her after saying bad things about her. i felt so guilty for saying what i said, but i can not convince her its not what i truly meant. i am lost now as to what to do other then lay low with everything and just let it ride its course. i truly wish this to be over but its not, and i have a hard time with that. i really need to do what i know is right. leave her alone, she can not and will not let me fix this, i understand that now, stupid me huh, you guys have been telling me this for a long time now. it is going to be hard for me to do that, but i am going to try. i told my wife lastnight that i am taking off the gloves and dropping all my weapons that i do not want to fight anymore, that i will finally give her space and time to do what every she decides to do. i have made several bad mistakes that i hope are repairabul, we are now back to the beginning, but i will do things differently this time. she is alowing me the chance to do that, which is why i love her, she is not giving up on me yet and i will not give up on her either. PLEASE HELP ME STAY THE COURSE!!!!
That all sounds like steps in the right direction but...
Quote: PLEASE HELP ME STAY THE COURSE!
The important word here is HELP. You have to want to be on the course and committ to it long term. Your biggest problem in all this is...drum roll...YOU!
It's that way for most of us and your no exception. You just have to learn that things WILL get worse before they get better. She WILL seem like she's giving up or moving on or seeing someone or not in a good mood or whatever. You CANNOT allow whatever the situation is at the moment derail you from the big picture.
I think you are one of those who had to get to a certain point before it started to make sense. There's NO shame in that. Now make it all worth while and embrace what you now know you want and make it happen!
