We fired the C last week...I am still somewhat ambivalent about it. I am not sure we are done but wonder if perhaps I am just scared of NOT going to C where I know I can speak my mind and not worry about overanalyzing or obsessing or any of the other things I do.
I know there are still unresolved issues surrounding this A and my H even agrees he is still stuffing a lot of what was going on with him back then. But is he past it? Am I? I suppose only time will tell.
I can't help but worry about the fact that I still don't feel it's "fixed" and that all was "resolved"...for me there was not total "closure". This scares me because I didn't recognize it the last time so how will I if there ever is a next time? I know, don't live for 'what if's'...but it's still there in the back of my mind and creeps forward every so often.
I realize that from his view-I may never have that from him because he still clings to the adage of "I don't know". And I realize that I am the only one that can attain that from myself, and FOR myself.
More work on me.
But, how then, are we supposed to 'help' our spouse to open up and face this when we can see the need, the C can see the need, and even our spouse can see the need??
We are in a good place right now-and will continue to move forward together. I plan to, at some point, discuss with him my need to talk about things...not to set a frequency or a schedule to do so, but just to reinforce what the C said to us about not being afraid to talk about things (she was especially directing this at my H-and even told him so!).
And I know I have more letting go to do. (and of course those lucky stars to count)
Thanks for the rant, AND all the great adice and thoughts over the months....it is much appreciated!
L
[This message has been edited by Me2 (edited 05-30-2001).]
The 'I don't know' answer ranks right up there with 'I love you, but I'm not in love with you'.
It is a surefire sign that H does not want to discuss the topic at hand because more than likely he really 'does not know'. His answer won't change until he solves personal problems first. Then and only then will he be able to talk to you, give you straight answers, and work on your marriage.
H is a big boy and master of his own destiny. If you confront him about your need to talk, mention it once and only once in a manner that will not intimidate him. Then let it rest and never bring it up again.
Was he the one to bail out of C and 'fire' the counselor? Just curious.
Greg
[This message has been edited by gbon (edited 05-30-2001).]
The C and H and I agreed from the beginning that this therapy was not intended to last a long time, she was there to help us find the tools we needed to communicate with each other and solve the immediate problem(s) once recognized. She told us from the beginning that the main goal was for us not to need her anymore and be in a position to do what we did with her on our own. She helped us to try and find solutions to the problems at hand, tried to help us recognize how the other person felt and perceived things, and encouraged us not to dwell on things from the past, once we identified them as "issues", because we cannot change them.
We gave her our backgrounds in the beginning and some of our past so she would have a base but she already knew me, and what I told her of H, from a year ago. I started seeing her in Feb of 00 after I found out H was talking to OW on line, this is when he lied claiming it was only "talking". I saw her probably a total of 8 or 9 times, then H came home and on we went with our merry lives until the bomb in Nov.
We discussed DB and SBT and she is a supporter of brief therapy and finding solutions rather than dwelling on the past. She has felt that we have been 'close to firing her' for the last 3 sessions. She made the comment this time "so, are you ready to fire me yet? (smiles and looks at me then at H and says) I know he is!"
It was his idea to go once the bomb got dropped. He asked me to contact her, since I had seen her before. He never gave me a hard time about going to the appointments and we usually made it a 'half day for us' kind of thing, appt from 14-1500 and then didn't have to pick up the kids until 1715. He comutes an hour each way to work and with is profession it is often diffucult for him to leave for personal appointments during the day...but he always did.
A problem we had in the past was him choosing his profession over his family, and having been in that profession myself, I understand. I don't like it, but I understand-and that is the main reason I am no longer in that particular profession.
To his credit he made every appt, sometimes at the expense of other things on his schedule.
You are right, I cannot (and do not) belabor my 'need to know' and keep after him about talking to me. He knows how I feel. I doubt he will forget!
He also understands that sometimes I do need to talk about it. He has handled that well so far...much better than I. Last time I had to stop and leave the room because I was getting too angry. It ended good tho.
I do believe that he thinks he doesn't know right now, but I also believe there is much more to the whole thing, for him, and for some reason(s) he just cannot tell me.
I told him that I hope he can someday, and until then, I will be here for him.
I am comfortable with our decision not to schedule another C session. We basically left it open so that we could schedule anytime we felt the need.
I wish H would go on his own, I asked him once if he thought it would help him....he said, as he has gotten so good at lately, "I don't know"...I didn't want to push the issue and "nag" so I let it go. I think it would help him, but like you said, I cannot face his deamons for him...whatever they may be (aside from the A).
It worries me that he may not be perceived as 'willing to work on our marriage'. Am I sugar coating how he really is? Or am I not seeing things as they really are? Or am I making mountains out of molehills?
Me2, I don't call it firing the C. I call it giving her/him a break. I did the same thing this past Saturday. I had a final session with her to talk about me and my current path. I really appreciated the help our C gave. She was there the night W bombed me with the S talk. She saw the DB transformation occur to me. Our C feels that W still has not begun her journey. She also said I cannot force it.
You and I are anxious cus we are already waiting on the other side. Our spouses are still a bit confused. You and I know what we want and get frustrated that our S's can't return it.
Lets leave them and marry each other
Just kidding.
Lets take them for the love they can offer and lets work on improving our lives in different ways. Lets find alternative ways to fill the holes in our hearts as a temporary patch. Lets wait patiently on the other side.
I like your analogy of waiting on the other side, that's how I feel most of the time in dealing with the whole A issue (although in my case it could also be termed overanalyzing!!). I have accepted that fact that it happened and that I cannot change it. I have forgiven myself for my conduct, actions and reactions in the years leading up to it. I am trying very hard to forgive him for his mistake. I tell myself daily (and several times throughout the day) that I forgive him. I have not yet told him. At the last C session I said I wanted to...but....then C said-something is holding you back, what is it? Basically his inability to open up to me about the whole thing-the fact that I really had no idea things were 'that bad' between us still confuses me.
I am not sure he realizes the magnitude of this for me, to actually say those words outloud to him and hope desperately he believes me. I asked him a while back if he'd forgiven himself for this whole thing....pat answer "I don't know", which to me, means no. Maybe he needs to hear me say it first, I dunno, or maybe he's afraid I won't ever forgive him so how can he forgive himself? We have been 'living it' tho, but the actual verbalization of it is another thing, and it's a biggie for me-I think it has to do with my huge problem with lies-don't say something you don't mean-it incenses me.
I know I have come a long way but I also see how much more I have to do. I can now recognize the 'things' BA (before affair) that would just set me off. I still feel it inside but am calm, cool and collected on the outside. I am trying, like you said a while ago in a post, to figure out WHY I have those sorts of reactions and what triggers them....and then identify alternate reactions that are (probably) more appropriate.
Want to read some more-and a few things over.
And try to suppress the underlying fear that because I really feel no true resolution that this thing is gonna come back to us someday and bite us in the butt. His pretending everything was rosey BA was inevitably what helped him to go astray.
L
p.s. Hmmm is that a proposal??!!!hehe!! (very sweet and just the ego boost I needed today!) Tell you what-let's stay here on the other side for a bit and see how things pan out-Daddy always told me never close any doors/burn any bridges....thanks buddy!
Things are going pretty well for us, no real major backslides and I have been able to keep my mouth shut and enjoy OR...but I need to talk to him and need him to talk to me.
We cannot go through our entire lives just acting as if everything is nice and rosy and that we have NO problems-never had any problems-and are the perfect couple, our unresolved differences will not miraculously fix themselves and the resentment will only build. I realize that some differences have no resolution...and that his desire is to just put this thing (as he calls it) as far behind him/us as possible.
I asked him the other night how he was 'doing'...he said 'fine'. He asked how I was...I said that I was ok most of the time but there were some difficult times and that I still had a number of issues that I need to overcome. Next I asked him about OR talks, I told him that I thought I was ready to have mature non-C mediated discussions with him. I told him that I still feel edgy because of my perceived lack of resolution on the whole "why" question. I told him that I needed him to talk to me and asked him to trust me with his feelings.
I proposed that we set aside a period of time every week where we talk about the A. As I have a (slight) tendency to pontificate and belabor issues (not any more tho-getting pretty good at this DB stuff!) I told him that we could even set a timer so I wouldn't keep running my mouth and that we'd allot each other equal talk time.
He agreed and said he thought it was a good idea. I told him he could pick the day, as his schedule is much more 'set' than mine.
Then I dropped it. That was 4 days ago. Nothing more has been said about it. I will wait somewhat longer and then approach him again, as I know he will not approach me on this with a day...
He knows this is hard for me, and I know this is hard for him...and he knows I know it is hard on him. Y'know!?
Unpacking another box from overseas on Sat he came across a fridge magnet with a note (obvious women's writing) on the back, nothing too personal-then signed with what I thought was the nickname of OW (based on her name it would be an appropriate nickname). I just left the room...could not speak.
Although I tried to keep the feelings to myself and rationalize how I felt and about how it was ridiculous to have such a reaction to a stupid magnet, I was still pretty upset. He noticed my mood change and asked what was wrong. I told him I was probably just overreacting and that I didn't want him to see me so upset (I was crying and could not breath). He explained about the magnet, who it was from and assured it was not from OW.
I said it was sometimes very hard for me and that I still had issues to work out.
He didn't attempt to comfort me and just left me alone.
I thought that was pretty shitty of him. Although I didn't want him to see me that upset, I wanted him to comfort me-reassure me. Before he left the room I was not mean, I did not accuse him of keeping something OW'd given him, I just stated that I should not have seen that, didn't want to see it because I had not realized he'd kept anything she'd given him. He told me it wasn't from her and that he had nothing she'd ever given him (which wasn't much anyway-birthday card and christmas present/card). That's when I told him I still had issues...then he just left me alone.
As the day progressed (we were cleaning house) we both acted as if the whole thing never happened and were 'buddies' again.
I feel bad he had no comfort for me. It's not like I walk around with this chip on my shoulder and I am not moping around nor am I depressed (anymore)...so WTF do I have to do to get him to show me his emotions...and when I (God forbid) show MY human side...get him to acknowledge that I have feelings and AM NOT as strong as I come off to be?
I'm just venting here...
...but sometimes I get sick and tired of pretending that I'm happy ALL the time...sometimes I'm NOT happy. But I'm afraid if I let my 'true colors' show once again, he'll feel bad and when he does that he clams up. What I want him to do is open up...I know...it's all in the WAY I show him. But is seems to have the same effect no matter how I express myself-he gets quiet.
I fear he is headed for a major meltdown in the near future. Right now, I want to be there and be able to help him handle it....but I can now see how those feelings may change in the future. Perhaps that is the ultimate detachment...or simply apathy.
I think you're handling some tough situations REALLY well. I have always wondered too when the time is to talk and open up, and when it is to keep emotion to ourselves. It sounds like you're balancing that well, even if it doesn't feel like it, and keeping perspective.
If you're going to set time aside to talk, maybe you could keep some notes about the points you want to make to him and things you need ask about?? Maybe it will help you feel better, be more prepared when you aren't talking about it. And it might help remove that feeling of " sweeping under the rug"...
I'm sorry your H didn't console you. That's a pretty sore spot right now for me, too. Maybe he doesn't know you need it? Maybe it's hard for you to do (I KNOW) but why don't you try just asking for a hug next time? I don't think that asking for affection is a sign of weakness. I guess you have to see how he reacts. If you're not sure he's ready to deal with them, then keep the EMOTIONS to yourself, but let him know he CAN do something to help?
Me2, Us guys can be pretty slow on the uptake. Next time throw in "I could use a hug when i get like this". Then you could later see if he is capable of learning.
Thanks...I was feeling pretty down - and I just found out that H is going to be out of town for 3 days over my birthday in 3 weeks.
That really sucks. He didn't even say 'gee, I'm sorry it's over your b-day' or 'hey La I'll see what I can do about going another time'....but he didn't-at least not in the voicemail he left me, he asked me to call him back but I just couldn't. When he called me again and told me I said I was pretty busy with work and couldn't talk. I don't think he knew it upset me and if I can muster enough DB strength....he won't.
He has a great capacity for warmth, and in the past when I have asked for a hug-he's always been right there with open arms. Sometimes I just don't want to have to ask-I want him to WANT to comfort me-even when I don't ask.
DAM IT he should be able to read my mind!!!
The night the bomb was dropped I rolled over to my side of the bed with my back to him....wondering if I was gonna be able to sleep in the same bed with him-he asked if he could hold me...I told him I didn't think so and besides it wouldn't change anything...he replied with 'yeah, but it might make you feel better-I know it will me'.
I'm just being impatient again.
Oh, also, there's more crap with MIL, or MILFH (as so aptly coined by R8chel)...but I need to give it a bit more thought...she really is looney-and I cannot help but blame her for the way H is.
Someone in another post I read today, I think on NC (not sure who's post or who wrote this...but) they assured the person who started the thread that their marriage would not revert back to the same old thing as before the A, because of the positive changes they've made within themselves, but as for the rest of it I'm just not so sure I agree. I know the changes I have made in myself are for the better, but I just don't see a different H.
It's like there was this little 'hiccup' in our marriage (the A) and he wants to just forget about it and move on 'business as usual' and 'everything's rosy'. (this is where I start to blame MILFH and that whole family...they are SOOOOO in denial and are such a bunch of CLASSIC avoiders).
Gonna focus on getting through one day at a time...
thanks for the hugs yous guys....much appreciated!!!
I should probably not be giving you advice since I am worlds behind you in my journey but...I will anyway.
It just doesn't sound like you were ready to fire the C. As a former social worker who saw couples and families, I know that there are lots of different approaches that therapists take in doing counseling.
Sometimes brief therapy is the way to go. Sometimes brief therapy is the only option since insurance mandates it. But it may not be the right approach for you and your H. You may need more than some help in communicating. You may need to continue to put issues on the table and have a forum to discuss them for awhile. It sounds like your H is not going to initiate that and like you are resentful.
There is nothing wrong with going to counseling for tune-ups from time to time or even going for longer term marital counseling. I think sometimes the "experts" advise us on the "right way" to do things because it fits their needs or approach. There are other therapists out there that may be willing to continue working with you and your H.
Michele and the SBT followers may strongly disagree, but I just thought I'd throw it out there since no one knows what you need more than you.
