Underdog, great posts!!! You describe me to a tee!!! This is something I will have to read again and try to digest and work on. I'm on my merry way!!!!
Oh Mama, I hope they help. I say these things because there is NO point in learning this stuff if I can't share what I've learned with people who need the information.
Always--I figured we had more in common than you let on.
So, Mama, is it a date? You leave your H alone right now and concentrate on you? Sounds like a great place to start--after all, you're worth every moment. It also does wonders for PMA--because you're no longer shining the floodlight on his stage, but yours instead.
The side benefit to that is that even though he might be involved with OW, he's paying very close attention to what you're doing and saying (or not doing/not saying). Learn to take full advantage of the opportunities that are given to you to SHOW your changes rather than SAY them. You can't believe how many opportunities you have during any given day.
Again, while my XH is a P/A person, my aggressive nature didn't help him overcome it until I changed. What a concept!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Betsey...scary, isn't it? In fact, your H's reaction to personal change is the same as my H's....always everyone else's fault. In fact, it was a personality trait I came to really dislike in H during our M and definately one of my triggers. It made his work, and thus life, miserable, and he never saw himself having any control over it....always "why is this happening to ME." Hard to live with after a while. Also, your description of your family is EXACTLY mine, and what H threw at me before I left this past week. All my mom's fault now. True, not not entirely.
Whew....now to Mama...
I have to second, third and fourth what Betsey says. You KNOW I was in the same position you're in now....the lies, acting as if and turning your head. It was a living nightmare....but I promise it WILL end. It has to. They almost always do. It means nothing, just a distraction. She's not HALF of what you are. Your H is avoiding his issues and problems, running away from them. These are all things my H realized. He wasn't looking for his soul mate, just fun.
Now, that being said, take advantage of this time. Hey, you can't really work with H on an R now, with the mess, so use the time to keep working on you. Like pondering the PA issue, and others. Pondering the sex issue, why it came to be, how you feel about it and how you would approach it. Also, what OTHER things in the M did you need, did you have issues with H about....there have to be a LOT in this dept. How can you start working on them when ready.
Also, I agree with Betsey about him watching you. My H did that as well. I never knew/believed, but I was ALWAYS being watched, evaluatde and believe it or not, believed. I was being tested, pushed to the limits (to see if I'd 'crack' and become a lunatic again)....H was pulling out all his issues too, which is GOOD. Then, low and behold, a month or 2 ago, he comes out with how much he sees I've changed and how could he forget that....WHAT?? Blew me away, I had always assumed that he wasn't looking at the things I did for better. You have a million opportunities in a day. Strive, each day, to make each interaction a POSITIVE one...no matter HOW horrible you feel. I had to PUSH myself to put on a smile and nicec face when H came home late, AGAIN. Again, instead of counting H's actions, tardies, etc.....start counting how many minutes you had iwth H that day and how many were really nice, peaceful and kind. Not loving or passionate...we're not there yet....just peaceful and respectful. Lay the foundation for more stuff. It worked for me (well, I'm in a weird place now). That way, if you DO flip, backslide (b/c we're not perfect), when you FINALLY do express your anger over the A, you can go BACK to the improved person you were....fast, without causing too much trouble.
One thing I learned that boundaries are great, for you, as OT states. But, with my H, as I suspect with Betsey's H....he does NOT react well to anyone pushing or demanding, Probably b/c I did TOO much of that and so did others in his life. He does, however, give you what you want when you aren't asking at all, or ask nicely. What a concept. He described it as, sadly, "It's like I'm a mule....be nice to me and I'll do an insane amount of things, beat me and I will not move." Got it. Wth my H, I just told him that it pained me that he was still being dishonest, and left it at that...didn't ask him to stop, anything. This has to come to a natural end anyway, and it will. My H also needed to feel accepted, loved and treated kindly, ESPECIALLY when he was doing something so unlovable, even in his own eyes. As odd as it seems, it's as if when they are doing this is when they need love the most....
Keep your chin up and know that EVERYTHING you say and do is powerful...it means more than you think/know. Use it wisely and to your advantage.
I did really good last night and this morning. I so BADLY wanted to talk to him and tell him how I feel. But I realize NOW is not a good time IF he is still involved with OW.
OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here, but what if his "LIES" are not lies at all, I only perceive them to be. I'm assuming things, but I could be totally wrong. Just a thought....
Like both of your H's mine does NOT like to be told what to do either. And yes I agree, that if he is involved with OW it is an escape from reality, hopefully something that will lose it's appeal soon. Is he P/A? I definitely think so. I can't help him right now but I have plenty of things that I can improve about myself. This in itself will require using all of the energy I have been putting towards my M.
He probably is watching and waiting for me to pounce on him with a "talk"; like this morning I was up very early reading in the basement, when he came down to workout I'm sure he thought "Oh s%*t, she is gonna start in on me now", but I didn't. My reward, was a really long and meaningful hug goodbye as he went to work. See, thinking before speaking really works!
I'm going to go back and re-read the last few posts regarding P/A so I can get a better handle on it. Also, as OT suggested to me in GH's thread I need to start thinking of myself and treating myself as a sexual being - which for so many years I did not do, I thought of myself only as someone's Mom. I did order some lingerie and things the other day and wanted to tell H this too, but I kept my mouth shut and didn't share the information with him - a definite 180 since I tell him EVERYTHING. I feel I can have my little secrets too, right?
Anyway lot's of homework to do, will keep you posted and if you have any specific suggestions, please send them this way.
ok, so much for the best laid plans..... as far as H and his unexplained absenses, that really wasn't it. I just HAD to talk to him.
Let's see Friday he said,as well as wrote in his morning note to me that he would be home around 2:00. When he wasn't home at 3:30 and didn't call I, of course, started on my usual tirad. I called his cell, no answer....so, I called his work, something I have NEVER done in 12 years. They said they just saw him and would page him. He didn't answer. He called from his cell a few minutes later and was home by 4.
Saturday: I could not sleep, I really needed to talk to him. You have to understand the reason that I am so crazy is because he works with the OW. I was up by 3:30 a.m., made coffee and went downstairs to read. I didn't talk to him, as I stated earlier but around 11:00 I called him on his cell and asked him if he could come straight home today, I told him it would really make me happy. He said he was busy but would call me back. He called at 1:04 and said he just left and was on his way home, he was just going to stop for lotto tickets. Mind you, this should take at a maximum of 40 minutes. I told him I was going to take the kids to see Cars and that the show was at 2:40, he stated that was too early - he wanted to come home and relax first.
He came home after 3:00. I was fuming but didn't say a word. He ate the salad I made him 2 hours ago and we went to the movies. Had a nice time.
Sunday morning; I wake up early once again. I cannot do this anymore. I make coffee and wait for him to wake up, I actually woke him up around 6:00 a.m. I told him I need to talk to him and it was serious plus I wanted to do it before the kids got up.
I don't remember word for word what I said but this was the jist of it. "I love you and our family very much and would do anything to keep us together, but lately I feel my dignity and self-esteem have been slipping away. I cannot go on like this." I brought up things that were bothering me like hime not coming straight home from work, $, lack of honesty, etc... I say we have a few choices: 1) go to a marriage counselor, 2) because I know he HATES to talk to people, work with me and my library of resourses, 3) seperate and all that that entails.
He right away denied every thing (even though I found a Nokia phone in the breast pocket of his leather jacket) I know, snooping is bad - I didn't bring it up.
He said I know people think the grass is greener,but it's not - if you want to go to a marriage counselor I'll go....but the most painful thing, besides the lying, was he told me that he was no longer attracted to me physically. That really hurt since I personally feel that I look pretty damn good. I told him that talking to a professional might help because there could be hidden barriers that could be preventing him from wanting to be with me.
Long story short, he says he wants to stay married. I told him that I couldn't live like brother and sister forever. I re-re-re-re-re-read that part in DR about when your spouse refuses to end the affair. I am not going to work on me, he doesn't like me. I am just going to BE me, for now.
I will have to stop hanging on, because hanging on destroys your mental well being. You get tunnel vision and you interact in a way that makes your situation worse. So for the sake of our R and my sanity, I have decided to let him go - in my mind and heart only, in my actions I will do everything I can do create an environment where H feels so loved and appreciated that he would never want to leave.
Sorry for the rambling, this thread is more like a journal to me. If anyone has some words of wisdom, please chime in.
More journaling.... Ok, clearly my H is heavily involved with OW. He is only still here because of finances, but eventually that will not matter to him and he will reach his breaking point and leave and not look back. I now have to think about myself, my future and my children and be prepared for this day. I am going to aggressively start looking for a job, one that I can work nights. I am no longer going to pursue a relationship with my H - he does not want one with me. I need to get my ducks in a row. I am going to keep very busy. Kids and I are going to start a little craft club for their friends. We are working on the brochures today. I am also going to work on little projects around my house that I have put off. Basically I am going to "act as if" my H is already gone.
Where I think his head is at, Well, if he could easily leave he would. I think because of our financial situation, he is not prepared to leave...yet. So, he would like to live here with us with me as his friend and then have a love R with the OW. In other words have his cake and eat it too. But this will not last forever, eventually he WILL leave to be with her. I need to be ready for that. I will not be able to afford our house so I need to get it ready for the time that I will have to put in on the market. I am going to check out rent costs in the area as I would like my kids to stay in the same school with their same friends. I am going to look into daycare costs, etc.
I am not going to call H anymore during the day, if he calls me I will be pleasant, as I would to anyone who calls me. I am not going to bring up counseling as it would be a futile attempt to reconcile which CANNOT be done with OW in the picture. I have to trust that whatever happens, I will be ok.
What CLEARLY defines him as still "heavily" involved with OW. How do you know all this stuff about him just waiting until he can afford to leave. You keep swinging WILDLY back and forth about all this, I suspect, based on the same "evidence".
Is it POSSIBLE that you are simply tired and need a break?
I am really confused. H said he would go to counseling. He said he wants to stay married. He is SAYING all the right things, and in one case, the MC, his is actually agreeing to take action. Take him up on this.
The way I see it is that you stepped up and set some conditions, boundaries, that you needed to have in place for a relationship to continue between you and him. He accepted those conditions and now you are 100% sure his is full of $hit, which BTW, he may very well be.
My point is that it seems like you could NOT have made an appointment for MC and had him back out, thus going against what he said he'd do.
For some reason, maybe some snooping you did not tell us about, you are now convinced that he lied to you and is just stringing you along until the time is right. I don't see that...yet. I know it COULD be true, but then again so could his sincerity.
As for the "not physically attracted to you" part, well, as we KNOW, that can change in time. He just went through (or is likely still going through) a period where he either didn't see you as a "sexual" being because of his, to use your words, tunnel vision for PW, or he forced himself to deny any feelings he had for you. In either case (oh, and I accept that it IS possible that he is just not attracted to you for "whatever" reason) time is on your side. We both know that attraction can build over time. Look at people you work with, or see everyday at school, the market, where ever. In the beginning, they were "ok" but as you get to know them, spend time with them, they become more than that.
Point is that he is talking out of his a$$, trying to justify his past actions, or his current ones. I think you are doing GREAT in not taking that personally and keeping your self confidence high.
All I can say, is after all this time, don't fall victim to your own fatigue and mistake it for 100% proof that things are going to hell in a hand basket.
Wow, I'm sorry to read about your confrontation. I have to say that I started reading with extreme trepidation, because your very first paragraph pretty much indicated the way everything was going to go:
Quote: as far as H and his unexplained absenses, that really wasn't it. I just HAD to talk to him.
How he reacted was exactly what I would have predicted. That is, he's avoiding because it's not at all safe for him to be with you right now. What do I mean? Let's go into more detail...
Quote: He came home after 3:00. I was fuming but didn't say a word. He ate the salad I made him 2 hours ago and we went to the movies. Had a nice time.
But I'd bet my mortgage he knew the fury that was simmering under the surface. This man is terrified of you and your temper, Mama.
Quote: "I love you and our family very much and would do anything to keep us together, but lately I feel my dignity and self-esteem have been slipping away. I cannot go on like this." I brought up things that were bothering me like hime not coming straight home from work, $, lack of honesty, etc... I say we have a few choices: 1) go to a marriage counselor, 2) because I know he HATES to talk to people, work with me and my library of resourses, 3) seperate and all that that entails.
I completely understand your feelings here, Mama. But where in this conversation was there room for him to come up with a solution? Your fear is magnified in control, and for the P/A person, you've backed him in a corner and given him options on how to work out of it. I'm afraid if YOU don't change how you approach the situation, you're not going to get any chances to work this out.
Quote: He right away denied every thing
Yup, I could have predicted this. Communications between the 2 of you are not good, and he's not going to feel comfortable even considering being honest until it's safe, Mama. We both know that you're riding a hair trigger that he's going to set off one way or another.
Quote: but the most painful thing, besides the lying, was he told me that he was no longer attracted to me physically. That really hurt since I personally feel that I look pretty damn good.
I'm sure you do look good, friend. But consider this: are you attracted to someone you no longer respect? He's seeing you as a whole package, not just an exterior. And who's attracted to someone who is angry all the time?
I'm NOT saying you don't have justification in your anger, Mama. What I AM saying is that this anger is causing your marriage harm, and it would be very advisable for you to stop holding HIM accountable for how you feel. That's your problem, and he has his own. His may be worse than yours, but I'm afraid he's not going to give you or your marriage a chance if you don't work on this issue. He's clearly telling you that it's getting in the way.
Quote: I told him that talking to a professional might help because there could be hidden barriers that could be preventing him from wanting to be with me.
Again, I see this as very controlling. You've given him the cure to what you believe ails him. You've already mentioned that he has difficulty opening up to strangers, so tell me how this is going to work out in favor of you and your marriage?
Does he get a say in how matters are resolved between the 2 of you, or do you have exclusive rights here?
As far as the OW is concerned, Mama, how can I put this so I don't come across as whacking you? I think she's only an issue as long as you make her an issue? What if his R with her isn't what you assume it is? Could this be possible? And could it also be possible that your lack of respect is driving him elsewhere?
Quote: He is only still here because of finances, but eventually that will not matter to him and he will reach his breaking point and leave and not look back. I
Okay, now I'm going to nail you for this huge assumption. Mama, he's not ever said this to you, has he? What if he really DOES want your marriage to work? What if he just has his own ideas on what a happy marriage looks like to him, and he's desperately afraid that you're going to rail him for seeing things differently and wanting to get there on his own?
What if he really doesn't want to leave, but you're figuratively packing his stuff and sending him away? What if your anger is the reason he can't see you any differently? Would you be more inclined to work on your own issues?
I mentioned tapes on anger last week, and I'm still encouraging you to invest $35 for 4 hours of therapy. However, if you really want to get started, how about heading to the bookstore and buying Harriet Lerner's The Dance of Anger?
Friend, I don't know the issues here between you, but as a novice reader, I can definitely tell you that until you learn how to embrace your anger and diffuse it, it's going to prevent you from being happy. I really would love to see you and your H make an attempt at setting things right, and sometimes it calls for US to step up to the plate and do some tough work.
If I could convince you to do nothing else but this, I'd pay money to see you get some good results. But that's entirely up to you.
Now, I just hope that you don't feel beaten down by what I had to say. BTW, I've had to travel this path, Mama. Only it wasn't my XH who told me he was terrified of my anger--it was my D12, who was 8 at the time. She told me that she and her dad had been afraid of me for a long time. THAT was single handedly my biggest movtive to change. Honestly, I was sick of being angry...
I just hope you are too.
(((((Mama)))))
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: You keep swinging WILDLY back and forth about all this
Do you see how crazy I have become!!! And yes, I am tired of all of the lies. I guess I did set some boundaries but if you resolve issues by force instead of cooperation, you play a tug-of-war with each other's well being. The name of the game is survival. The motivator is fear and resentment. I have to end this vicious cycle. I think if I just fight hard enough, then somehow this will get resolved, in my favor. But by trying to come out on top, I create opposition against myself. H doesn't like coming out second best any more than I do.
He won't "admit" to anything. He says he doesn't want to hurt me, which to me means he does still have some feelings for me. My H is a very obsessive/compulsive person. He is also a 1 woman man, was even when we met, he was dating someone and decided that he had to break up with her before starting a R with me. Clearly the OW has his heart (and his body) right now, which would explain the lack of intimacy between us.
The secret cell phone is a clear indicator that he is having a R with her. If she were just a friend or coworker there would be no reason he couldn't talk to her on his regular cell phone. Right?
Quote: How do you know all this stuff about him just waiting until he can afford to leave.
He plays the lottery every single day and spends at least $20 a day on scratch off tickets. This tells me he is desperately trying to win big money so he can take care of his financial obligations and fly the coupe with her.
Quote: He is SAYING all the right things,
I think is he saying these things to pacify me and buy him some time.
Quote: All I can say, is after all this time, don't fall victim to your own fatigue and mistake it for 100% proof that things are going to hell in a hand basket.
All I can say, is this is good advice but I cannot continue to live in dreamland. I must also be prepared for the worst.
Hi Mama, know how you are feeling, sometimes I think we need to step back, and maybe not necessarily admit defeat, but turn the focus around. We can't help them, change them or show them, they have to do it on their own. I know right now I have fifty million reasons why H needs to get back on the wagon with me, and I am frustrated because if I try and tell him any of them, I know what the answers will be. Anyway, hang strong lady, you, me, all of us will get through this...
Betsey