What a great topic--passive/aggressive. In my sitch, I see both H and I displaying these traits. For me, it's the setting invisible bars and then getting upset/moody, etc. Kinda like what Mama did.
For H, it's the "push you away, but not tell you what I want" behavior that he's displaying now. "I will abandon you, push you away, treat you like dirt (aggressive) but not make actions to get a D and really express what I want or feel."
In our situations, I think we get PA when we feel something, but don't necessarily want the action. For example: He is angry and fantasizes about D, wants to "punish me" or at least make me feel his anger, but doesn't really want the D either. For me, I will want him to rest, take a nap, but want him to also feel that I am disappointed....not that I want to go out, rather want the attention. So, there's this 3rd object that we project to (D or going out) that is really not part of the picture.
In Rob's case....it's not that he didn't want his W to have shoes, rather that she didn't consider his concerns. In GH's case, it's not that he's desperate for sex (OK, maybe! ), rather that he is hurt his W won't give a little affection back as a sign of her growing love for him. But what does SHE see..."GH wants sex"....so, in being PA, it's not just bad communication, it's misdirected communication that misses the point ENTIRELY....making it all the more dangerous.
I agree with GH's plea for authentic communication. Then get off it...no moodiness, harping, making your point. Just express yourself, seek compromise, be honest. For ex, H and I were discussing his motives for the A and abandoning me, he thought it was better than yelling at me. I disagreed. But instead of harping on my point, I listened, made my point, and then said "well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree..." H immediately saw my view after that, b/c for the first time, I wasn't a bully or PA, I was honest and just let it drop and let him have his opinions too...it thus made him more willing to actually talk to me and see my view.
I'm glad I read this post today. It's something I have to practce a LOT. It's a way of communicating I want to let go of and come around in. Food for thought for the weekend.
Thoughts about what GH wrote: DBing and honest talk. I realize that the 'no R talk rule' is for special circumstances, and after that, we should/can talk honestly. And, that authentic communication is the cure for PA behavior.
BUT, while we don't need to avoid R talk altogether, I have to say that it is HARD to be authentic and to NOT be PA in this phase many of us are in: acting as if and detachment. While the immediate crisis mode necessitating 'no R talk' is over, we still can't come out and say 'gee, it really gets me about you and OW, and that leads to these feelings for me...' No, not yet, b/c they're not ready to face it, be receptive to the negativity created by their actions, are still wallowing in guilt. Also, it's hard to say 'gee, it bothers me when you do X ,and I would like to work on it for a better R/M' when our spouses are not at the phase of 'truly' wanting to work on it and be committed to us. Yes, I think at times they do want that, weakly, and verbally commit, I got this from H many times, but I can sense that it's not 100% yet. Fine, but it makes it hard to have honest dialogue....you feel you're not getting enough, they feel pressured, to an extent.
Also, the 'act as if' and 'detach' modes require us to focus without ourselves and detach, not expect...and to a large extent 'turn our heads away' from the bad stuff right now. We can't talk about it, yet it stews in us and leaks out sometimes. So, even if we weren't normally all THAT PA, this phase kinda induces it....so, Mama might NOT be PA in that situation, but she feels tied right now, and unable to communicate honestly with someone lying to her all the time (and I felt)....she's also not a robot to hold things inside, so it comes out in it's own way.
When I did this, I wasn't proud, but I also felt that I was telling H "I won't confront you, because you don't want that and can't deal with it...I am giving space....BUT, we both know what's up and wrong and you know I'm upset." After awhile, after he got out of his fog, he was able to see that it was my pain and hurt so on the surface and it could not go without a talk...and that it was HIS duty to do that.
I really feel the need to "talk" to him again. But his actions indicate to me that he is still very much involved with OW so I feel he would only lie to me some more just to pacify me and shut me up because he does not want to deal with this. I am so up and down right now who knows what I will do the next time I see him. If I do talk to him I do not want to be confrontational, I just want him to know my feelings AND my boundaries. That I have chosen to stay in this pathetic exuse for a marriage but I will not do it indefinitely. I know he still has feelings for me and is probably, in his stupid way, trying to protect me from the pain by not "admitting" to anything. He is actually trying to "act as if". Anyway, I am off to have some fun with the kiddies!!! Talk at ya'all later.
Ok, so mama, I guess I missed something awhile back. I though he was done with OW. Do you KNOW he isn't, or do you just suspect he is not, and more importantly, have you two established that you are SUPPOSED to be in a relationship where honesty is a given? My point is that I made sure to get that on the table (thanks OT) a long time ago. I made sure that even if W was lying to me about OM, which I didn't really suspect, that she would committ to honesty from that point forward. That was more so that I could be honest with HER, not the other way around. That was so I could just straight out ASK her things that in DB we don't normally ask, specifically because we know they'll lie.
So I am just clarifying. HE said he was done with OW or not? You two are supposed to be honest with each other (again), or have you not really said that to each other? You believe him to still be with OW no matter what he says, right?
Hi Mama and all--I saw Always' comments about the P/A discussion on her thread and came over to have a look. I'm glad I did.
This P/A dynamic has come up in my own M, as my XH is a classic P/A--we spent a lot of time discussing the whys and solutions in C, so I've come to know this monster awfully well.
Rob, you're right and not so right in your observation that it's a communication style and not a personality disorder. It is sometimes a p/d when the person has been classically trained in emotion denial--and the person who becomes the stereotype for the p/d is someone who is P/A in all their relationships. The behavior originates when there is an inability to recognize or process anger.
Anger is about how I feel--not about what you're doing.
Remember that statement in ALL your communications. This is how we become guilty of projecting--when we assign blame to others for how we feel. And this is where a P/A person trips up.
Mama's comments that she hates confrontations is somewhat of an alarm to me, as that indicates someone who is extremely uncomfortable in being emotionally honest when the emotions are perceived as negative. That's actually the classic motivation in a P/A person... but it wouldn't surprise me if they both exhibited those tendencies and it manifested itself to where they are right now.
My XH had perfect role models in the kind that became a personality disorder. He was instructed not to emote negatively, and scolded harshly if he did. He and his brother have great difficulty letting people know how they feel when the emotions are uncomfortable, and for my XH, he survived by avoiding conflict at all cost...
The example you gave about the shopping trip is also a very classic communication style issue and not anything that would indicate a personality disorder.
So, Mama... here's where I'm going to challenge you:
Quote: Thus, people treat me like a doormat because they know I cannot say NO.
I was listening to a syndicated psychologist the other day on the radio who has something to say about this very topic. She said that WE teach others how to treat us... so if we treat ourselves as doormats, others will likely return in kind. Saying no is the ultimate act of self love, if it's a true need and not a selfish desire to punish.
Quote: All relates to my childhood and never feeling like I was good enough in my Dad's eyes. Just wishing he would give me a compliment, just once, instead of always letting me know how much of a failure I am.
(((((Mama))))) I think you and my XH have similar experiences from childhood that are really inflicting harm in your ability to communicate effectively right now.
Oh, and because I haven't said so, that does NOT mean that your problems with your H are your fault or that what he's doing is acceptable. Far from that, my friend. So please know I'm NOT in his camp.
But I do think there are some really terrific insights here for you to use on bettering your own self esteem and communication style.
It took a D for me to make some excellent progress on this front. It took a lot of hard work, Mama. I'm not P/A... just plain old aggressive. So when he acted that way, I came out on the offensive and loaded for bear. I also wondered why he wouldn't be truthful with me.
The answer? DONG. I made it impossible for him to be honest with me because of how I reacted. I practiced my reaction and honed it for 6 months before I pointed out to him that I hadn't gotten angry with him by yelling or name calling... and he was genuinely stunned. So, what I'm saying is that I documented my progress before I waved the flag in his face.
Very gradually, I allowed controversial conversations to take place. In the beginning (well, for at least a year), I would begin the convo with, "I'd like to discuss something important with you. I realize that this is tough for both of us, but I'm going to ask you a question, and you can feel free to tell me no if you feel you can't fulfill my request. And I promise that I won't get angry with you for being honest." In other words, I gave him permission not to talk to me about whatever it was that was on my mind. By doing so, I verbally cued him into the realization that he had choices in communicating with me too. Mama, it worked like a charm. When he knew I had worked on my reactions and that he felt I was being truthful in my promise not to get angry with him for expressing his feelings, he slowly began to open up to me.
I no longer have to make those lead-in statements with him anymore. He trusts me. Occasionally, we have setbacks (the past continues to haunt him, especially when he's feeling very fearful) and I have to rein him in and start all over again. That's when I phone him back and let him know that I don't want to be angry with him anymore... and he listens.
Mama, last fall we had to go back to the basics. I asked him why he orchestrated the P/A event and he broke down and confessed... he told me that he was very unhappy with himself for not setting boundaries with another person, and it conflicted with a promise he had made to me and our D12... his unwillingness to let the other person know his plans (and his fear of disappointing them) led him to make a choice that hurt his daughter instead, and that made him angry and ashamed. He surprised me by asking me to help him figure out how things could have been averted. While things seemed very obvious to me, he was overcome by feelings that bombarded him from his childhood...
So, I've got a recommendation for you, my friend. I listened to a CD series a couple years ago that changed my life... and I thought at the time that I had learned everything I needed to know about anger and P/A behaviors. They are led by a Catholic priest on a mission, but the message is about anger and not from a biblical or Catholic perspective. I've since shared them with a slew of friends--many who are not Catholic--and have received VERY favorable reports on the material.
It was simply the best $35 investment I've ever made. The series is called Transcending Our Anger by Fr. Tom Allender. You can find them on his WEBSITE. I think you might feel a lot better about why you feel the way you feel and how to turn those thoughts into caring statements that open up the lines of communication with others. Even your cranky H.
I remind my XH all the time... "Let me own how I feel about your news. I can't promise not to be angry, but I can promise that I won't overreact or make things worse. I'll also promise you that with some processing, I'll be able to talk to you about this without punishing you."
Mama, if I can change, anyone can. If I can turn communications around, anyone can. And that's where Rob is completely right. Instead of trying to figure out how to confront your H, why not work on changing how you feel about yourself instead?
Practice setting healthy boundaries for yourself on small things--and enforcing them. For example, if someone calls you to ask for a favor and you're already committed to something else (and I don't care what that commitment is, it's a commitment), you pause and say, "Gee, Mary, I've already committed myself to something else then. Perhaps another time?" Learn how to make yourself feel better about your ability to take care of YOU... and the doormat perception will gradually lessen as you become stronger about the more important issues.
BTW, Rob, you've figured out that you had a choice in how you communicated the shopping trip too? "Honey, money is a little tight right now, and I'm feeling a little afraid of buying things that aren't completely necessary right now. I feel that shoes are one of those items, so can we discuss this before you go out and buy them?"
You own how you feel, you give them permission to disagree with you, and you find a solution. If she does it anyway, you'll just need to dig a little deeper to see why she doesn't feel your feelings are important enough to listen.
Hugs!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Wow...Betsy, that was a monster, and I read every word of it, learning all the way to the last bit. I know it was not really addressed to me but it may as well have been.
WOW! What a fantastic post Underdog! Thank you because your really helped to clarify a LOT of things for me as well. There's so much good information here, but I want to highlight a few things....(sorry for the hijack mama..)
Quote: Very gradually, I allowed controversial conversations to take place. In the beginning (well, for at least a year), I would begin the convo with, "I'd like to discuss something important with you. I realize that this is tough for both of us, but I'm going to ask you a question, and you can feel free to tell me no if you feel you can't fulfill my request. And I promise that I won't get angry with you for being honest." In other words, I gave him permission not to talk to me about whatever it was that was on my mind. By doing so, I verbally cued him into the realization that he had choices in communicating with me too. Mama, it worked like a charm. When he knew I had worked on my reactions and that he felt I was being truthful in my promise not to get angry with him for expressing his feelings, he slowly began to open up to me.
I have found that in my situation that I have tried this more and more with my W as well. It is especially crtical that she learns to trust me at this juncture and for a long time it was very hard for her to do this because I would do the same things. Go on the offensive, attack! Lately, in the context of several of more "tender" conversations, I've really taken this approach to heart and have found that on those occassions, she is much more likely to open up to me.
Quote: BTW, Rob, you've figured out that you had a choice in how you communicated the shopping trip too? "Honey, money is a little tight right now, and I'm feeling a little afraid of buying things that aren't completely necessary right now. I feel that shoes are one of those items, so can we discuss this before you go out and buy them?"
You own how you feel, you give them permission to disagree with you, and you find a solution. If she does it anyway, you'll just need to dig a little deeper to see why she doesn't feel your feelings are important enough to listen.
Yes, over the last few months I've really become much better at recongizing these sort of conversations and doing just that, expressing my disagreement and offering ways to work through them. Traditionally, this was NOT me (and to be fair, neither was it my W) and in the scenario I described, I would have "punished" her for buying the shoes by brooding or some other withdrawal behavior. Mind you, this would be after I would say something like "sure, go ahead, buy them" all the while knowing that I didn't want her to buy them, but agreeing anyway to avoid the confrontation. Very odd when you think about it, but that's just the way things worked.
Thanks again Underdog, I intend to print this post for future reference!
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Mama, thanks for opening this up today....I think we can all say it's been great for each of us.
Betsey, as always, WONDERFUL. Scarey, but when you described yourself and H, it was like you were describing me and my H....SCARY. Same issues for my H as with yours.
Funny, the reaction to opening up is everything. I feel I blew that this weekend with the confession of A, but before that I did not. It led to H saying he finally 'felt safe' with me, which, really is the ULTIMATE compliment.
It's definately something to work at, esp. since part of is caused by my reactions and our dynamic, and the other part is just who he was from childhood (non-communicate when anticipating disappointment).
I loved each word you wrote, and have had some fantastic ponderings about this all day today. Really, a new part o fme I want to focus on. My communication, PA, everything. Take a fresh look at it.
Sorry for the mini hijacks here, Mama... but this subject matter is near and dear to my heart. GH, I'll come visit you on your thread in a minute, to clear up any vagaries.
Rob, I must admit that I first read your thread because of your title. I get it that you're Pennsylvania Rob and not P/A Rob.
I'm glad that it helped both of you reframe. I think I learned the hard way that it made things worse to consent to something and then withhold to punish after the fact. I used to do that too... when Mr. Wonderful would ask to go on a fishing trip or something and I would consent and then punish because I didn't want him to go. Nice, eh?
I can remember feeling overwhelmed when he was gone for a weekend--we had a small disabled child, and I would feel alone, lonely and overworked. Instead of communicating how I felt, I went on the offensive toward him--accusing him of being selfish and greedy with his own time. And yes, I feel awful for how I behaved then. He knows it now. We're the happiest, most functional divorced people I know. And the funny thing is that he's told a friend recently that we get along better now than we did when we were married or dating. I find it amusing, because he's right. We both grew up...
I know that the only way I learned how to communicate honestly was to draw out scripts and follow them. I entered each and every conversation with a mission to be honest, to listen and to ask questions--even when I didn't enjoy the topic or the words that he had to say. And I made myself promise not to backslide on punishing him for being honest with me. It was a very tough decision, but it has paid off thousandfold since.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: Rob, I must admit that I first read your thread because of your title. I get it that you're Pennsylvania Rob and not P/A Rob.
LOL! If I had to make up a screen name based upon my communication shortcomings, i guess that'd be the one....
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
), rather that he is hurt his W won't give a little affection back as a sign of her growing love for him. But what does SHE see..."GH wants sex"....so, in being PA, it's not just bad communication, it's misdirected communication that misses the point ENTIRELY....making it all the more dangerous. 
Betsey 
