I suppose I don't have a whole lot to say either way on this, but I wanted to let you know that I am thinking about you and that I believe that you have the strength to do whatever you feel is the best for you.
I guess over the past several months, something I've learned is that while idle, same ole, same ole' R talk is taboo (and believe me, I can definitely see this now....usually its a repetitive game), I think if you truly have something to say then you should set forth how you're feeling. I can understand you wavering on this issue of whether you should let him come back because if it were me, and my W were in the same boat, I too would have these reservations and would definitely be seeking out the motivation behind the move. On the other hand, with him back in the house, it does provide you with even greater opportunities to DB (I had to play devil's advocate).
Quote: Maybe this is just more of me running away, but I don't know. I don't expect much, I just want to either agree to work on things or finally end it once and for all. Am I wrong?
You are not wrong....we all want that sort of "closure" that finally gets the WAS off the fence and back into our hearts.....however, that being said, we will never be able to "force" that decision. It just won't work, no matter how hard we want it too. Sure you can guage whether he's willing to work on things or not, but the truth may be that he's unwilling, or unable to do so. These things can't be rushed I suppose....feelings are feelings, no matter how irrational or irresponsible they may seem to us. Its only when we come to realize that do we establish our boundaries of what is acceptable and what isn't and then move forward from there. If you are unable or unwilling to continue further in the present context of this relationship, then you need to make the decisions to move yourself forward. Only YOU know what it is that you can or cannot accept.
As for the outline of the "talk", I definitely support the idea of cliff notes if you find that you are unable to keep focused.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Re the R talk... Make sure you are very clear about what you are asking for...
If he thinks you are asking for a guarantee that he will stay and never leave you, he'll probably balk -- as he should.
But, if you are asking for a clear message that him moving home is about working on a committed R with you to see where it goes, even though you both know that one of you may still choose to leave if it isn't working, then that is a much more realistic desire.
So, just make sure you get clear in your head first about what will work for you, only you can know that, and then communicate it very very clearly so that he isn't hearing all sorts of things that you aren't saying.
My thought is that you both still need some space even if you are living together again -- his coming home should not feel like an inescapable trap, but rather an opportunity to pursue something wonderful that you both hope will work out, but may not. And, the "may not" really has to be OK for the R to feel like it is developing between two people freely pursuing it.
Anyway, if it is financial, does it really make sense for you and the kids to be the ones to move?
Haven't posted anything as there isn't anything to post! SO did show up here yesterday unannounced around noon, with lunch. I was so uncomfortable with him. Had no idea what to say, do, anything. He told me he was planning on going back on the air on Friday. It didn't appear as though he had any plans to "stay" here for the rest of the week. Not saying that because I'm upset or anything, just noting that he decided on something else after telling me otherwise. I haven't said one word about any of that....him staying here this week or anything about "moving" back in. I just don't feel ready to go there yet. In regard to yesterdays convo's here on GH's thread - I don't think I'm being passive, lol - just waiting for him to bring it up, while in the meantime, thinking about what I want to say.
Later in the afternoon he announced he "has to leave by 6:30". This PO'd me a little, like he's got something more important to do or whatever. I mean that's fine and all, but I needed a break. Told him I had some things to do and I would go out after dinner and be back at 6:30 in time for him to leave. He started questioning me, I remained steadfast in my attempt to stay neutral and elusive. He suggested I go out and come back before dinner - like he thought I was meeting someone at a certain time or something. I said No, I'd go after dinner. It was after 5 when we were eating, kids were being very difficult, I couldn't take anymore. Looked at the clock and said "I'm going to go now, I'll be back later."
When I got back, I started to get things ready for the kids baths. He wasted no time (as it appeared to me) in high tailing it out of here, which further fueled a little of my anger. He came to say goodbye, I was running the bath and my back was to the door and him, he tilted my head backwards and gave me a kiss on the forehead. Yes, I was a little short and rude with him - and he commented on it.
I was running between dual baths - D3 in one; D7 in the other shower when he came back upstairs and said he decided to take his pick up instead of his car. I was so distracted, I didn't say anything. He said "Do you care?" I said, "No, not really - it's your truck, what do I have to do with it." No effective communication going on anywhere with me today.
Around 8, the phone rings and it's him. Said he wasn't even to his apartment yet, was in Town X, had a problem with the calliper getting hung up on the truck. And, as you have to cross a mountain range to get to the town he lives in, he stopped for a while to let the brakes cool down before he went further down the slope, lol. We talked a little about him bringing the truck back to the place he bought it - something simple needs to be done that he can do, I suggested he let them know about it so either they can fix it or compensate him for what needs to be done. This only the 2nd time the truck's been driven. He drove it home and now this. They can check the mileage to see it hasn't been driven. He agreed.
Then he asked why I was so cold to him. I said that I was uncomfortable with him for some reason. I said "SO, sometimes I just don't know what to do when you're standing here in front of me. I don't know what you want, I don't what's going on and sometimes I'm plain old nervous around you." He seemed surprised by that. I went on to say that sometimes I'm not sure why he's here. To see the kids, me, or to take care of his business (i.e., work on truck, etc.). He said it was a little of everything - he tries to squeeze everything in in the short amount of time he has. He did say there was no reason for me to be so secretive about what I was doing and where I was going. (He was trying to get me to tell him where I had gone earlier.) It seemed he was implying how secrecy wasn't a good thing between us - no sarcastic remarks from me. I did apologize for being rude to him.
We talked a bit more and he said he was coming out today, that he wasn't doing the bar remote tonight. Said he had another bar remote at the place up the road from here Saturday night that he was going to do. If you all remember...this is the place in our town and he's come here after those remotes on both occasions - they fell on the Saturday nights before Easter & Mother's Day. No holiday this weekend - I'm not asking or offering anything.
I don't know. I don't know why I can handle the phone calls fine; emails - yet when he's here I'm different. I guess it's because of the great unknown. Every time I want to say something, I realize it could be misinterpreted by him; realize my wording may imply something different than what I'm trying to say. It makes me nervous. And I know it's not good to be that way.
A couple of times he has said things - almost like he's on the verge of saying something about "us" - things that have made my eyebrows go up - but he stops. Or appears to alter what he was going to say. I haven't posted any of it because I'm not sure what it means...or if I'm wrong. Some of it I don't entirely remember either, just know that whatever it was he was saying made me do an internal double-take.
Well, I guess if I've made it this far, I can go a little further through these times of confusion. I have to remember that this has to be on HIS timetable and not push.
Quote: Well, I guess if I've made it this far, I can go a little further through these times of confusion. I have to remember that this has to be on HIS timetable and not push.
I wish I had thought of this simple response to OT on my thread. This is my feeling exactly but for some reason, and maybe for both of us, this is wrong? Somehow I don't feel that way.
As for your "shortness" with him and general moodines, I think maybe you AND I have expectations built up. That's why the phone calls/emails are ok with you. It's because there can BE no more. There can be no opportunity for a goodbye kiss passed on. There can be no sexual tension. There can only be communication, without all the extra stuff like body language and even tone.
I think expectation can be a HUGE downfall for you right now but then again, at some point we should be allowed to have DESIRES and WISHES for our sitch and feel that we deserve to have those things happen. I guess that's where boundaries come in, and where it's up to us to decide if we are going to just wait some more or throw in the towel.
Of course, there ARE alternatives to that, like doing more "different" things (i.e. what I suppose OT is telling me to do), more 180's and such.
I probably should not be giving advice today as I kinda feel lost a bit myself, but I just think that you can make yourself happier than you are right now. Work on that and work on not expecting anything from him.
There are significant differences between NM and GH...
-- NM is much more willing to explore, define, and uphold some boundaries, even if she does change her boundaries, she generally owns those changes as a result of her choices
-- NM is not living with SO, SO has not committed to any kind of R with her
I also seriously doubt that NM really means that this needs to be on SO's timetable. What she likely means is that her timetable right now includes more time to see what happens with SO. She also understands the whole annoying coworker analogy and so is not pursuing SO...
NM -- **GREAT JOB** communicating about your weirdness :-) I bet it did catch him off guard. It is great when you can report on yourself without trying to predict and/or manage his response to your report. That, actually, allows for increased intimacy because it allows you to be much more authentic in any R between you and SO.
Well, I guess if I've made it this far, I can go a little further through these times of confusion. I have to remember that this has to be on HIS timetable and not push.
I wish I had thought of this simple response to OT on my thread. This is my feeling exactly but for some reason, and maybe for both of us, this is wrong? Somehow I don't feel that way.
Actually, I think in my sitch, yes; in yours, a resounding NO. I firmly believe that in your sitch that your W needs (wants?) to be shown you can be passionate.
Quote: As for your "shortness" with him and general moodines, I think maybe you AND I have expectations built up. That's why the phone calls/emails are ok with you. It's because there can BE no more. There can be no opportunity for a goodbye kiss passed on. There can be no sexual tension. There can only be communication, without all the extra stuff like body language and even tone.
I think expectation can be a HUGE downfall for you right now but then again, at some point we should be allowed to have DESIRES and WISHES for our sitch and feel that we deserve to have those things happen. I guess that's where boundaries come in, and where it's up to us to decide if we are going to just wait some more or throw in the towel.
I don't know...I don't really "expect" anything right now. Just kinda waiting and seeing. And I'm OK with that. If him & OW are through, I do not want to push. I understand that he may be feeling things about THAT (ick); plus the added stress of the hospital stay; financial pressures due to lost work; just a whole bunch of crap and right now, I am not going to be the one to be seen negatively or do anything to cause any further undo stress.
I think my shortness had more to do with having the kids 24/7 with no help pretty much for the last seven days. And being cooped up due to the damned rain. And busting the lawn mower the other day and having to tell him. Plus, recognizing what he's going through and trying to be compassionate. Add in my worry about his health, my knowing money is tight - all that...I simply didn't do a good job of filtering it and it came out with me being rude to him.
Quote: There are significant differences between NM and GH...
I agree!!!
Quote: -- NM is much more willing to explore, define, and uphold some boundaries, even if she does change her boundaries, she generally owns those changes as a result of her choices
This kind of confuses me.
Quote: -- NM is not living with SO, SO has not committed to any kind of R with her
Exactly where GH & I differ.
Quote: I also seriously doubt that NM really means that this needs to be on SO's timetable. What she likely means is that her timetable right now includes more time to see what happens with SO.
Well, a little of both, I think. So much has happened in the last couple of weeks. Like I said in my response to GH, I'm just waiting and seeing. And perfectly OK with it for now. Even if it doesn't seem like it. I DO want to know what moving back in means to him. I'm just not entirely ready to bring it up. I also think that HE will bring it up. As long as I don't - he WILL. I also think that he will bring up other stuff as well. I guess maybe that's what I mean when I say HIS timetable.
Quote: She also understands the whole annoying coworker analogy and so is not pursuing SO...
Yeah, I get this...and I also *see* the little dog begging for scraps and detest that picture...keeping them in the back of my mind when I feel like saying or doing something I shouldn't.
Quote: NM -- **GREAT JOB** communicating about your weirdness :-) I bet it did catch him off guard. It is great when you can report on yourself without trying to predict and/or manage his response to your report. That, actually, allows for increased intimacy because it allows you to be much more authentic in any R between you and SO.
Thank you. I wish it wouldn't have happened that way. I *KNEW* I was being rude. I knew it. Yet, it didn't help me to stop it. And I couldn't get into a convo with him right then - I was busy with the kids. I couldn't just up & walk away from D3 in the bathtub. So I had to make a choice, let my kid drown or follow SO to talk. Well, I chose to stay with my kid. It just seems like this has been prevalent in our R - me having to make a choice between the kids and him. Like he's jealous of the kids or something. I don't know. He did it last night when he called, too. D7 told him we were getting ready for bed, then he asked to speak with me. I talked to him for a few minutes and asked if I could call him back as the kids were waiting and he said OK.....but then kept talking for another 10 minutes! I don't know how to balance these things sometimes.
It is on your timetable because right now you are OK with giving him more time. If you weren't OK with it, I doubt you would be doing it. You understand that unless he has the space and time to want to come back, then he will never truly understand what he wants for himself. And, for him to figure that out is worth the wait to you. But, I don't get the sense that you ever think of yourself as sitting around waiting forever or even twiddling your thumbs for a couple of years.
BTW, I think I misunderstood something you wrote at the end. I take it that what you really mean is that you asked if you could call SO back because it was a bad time for you but then you wound up staying on the phone with him for another 10 minutes, yes? I bet you were frustrated that you did that.
Quote: It is on your timetable because right now you are OK with giving him more time. If you weren't OK with it, I doubt you would be doing it. You understand that unless he has the space and time to want to come back, then he will never truly understand what he wants for himself. And, for him to figure that out is worth the wait to you. But, I don't get the sense that you ever think of yourself as sitting around waiting forever or even twiddling your thumbs for a couple of years.
To the last sentence - HELL NO! I "waited" through the OW, I think that was different though. He had to get through THAT in order to get back around to us. So, with that knowledge, I was willing to, ahem "wait", for lack of a better word. And now I know I may have to "wait" through some other stuff. But, no I won't wait forever.
And, to clarify....
Quote: BTW, I think I misunderstood something you wrote at the end. I take it that what you really mean is that you asked if you could call SO back because it was a bad time for you but then you wound up staying on the phone with him for another 10 minutes, yes? I bet you were frustrated that you did that.
and
Quote: D7 told him we were getting ready for bed, then he asked to speak with me. I talked to him for a few minutes and asked if I could call him back as the kids were waiting and he said OK.....but then kept talking for another 10 minutes!
Revision: We talked briefly...I said to him "SO, I'm not trying to cut you short or anything, D3 & D7 are upstairs waiting for me. Can I call you back in a little bit?" He said OK...then HE continued to talk, (and, yes, me, too), for another 10 minutes.
And, yes, I was frustrated that I continued to talk with him even though I said I had to go and he seemingly agreed, yet at the same time ignored my request. The whole time he was talking, it was running through my mind that if I say I have to go, it would seem rude or that I didn't care about him or what he was saying. That's what bothered me. Not knowing how to make it known to him that I wanted to keep talking, but that I couldn't at that moment (even though I already HAD told him and he didn't seem to *HEAR* me).
He's so touchy these days about everything I do/say. And, if "ignoring" him led to the OW, good gosh - I don't want to do more of the same. So, I'm trying to learn how to do this.......
What a screwy weekend. Ended up with a roundabout talk with SO about him moving back here. Over the phone. Not good. I'm still so torn on this issue. I know some think it's better to have him here to DB. I just keep remembering the pain I was going through....how I couldn't stop from being more attached than detached. Since he's moved out, I've found some kind of peace of mind. I don't know that I could go back to that other way. Don't know what's going to happen anyway. The convo included me telling SO exactly that. That I could not fall back to that place where I was watching him do the same things. He said he would probably feel the same way if it was him. So what does this sound like to me? Well, it sounds like he's not ready to do any working on us. That has me very sad today. Add to it that he was working here in our town last night and didn't show up here afterwards, instead texted me 3:30 am to say he was still working and he'd talk to me after he woke up. Yeah, I'll admit it. I wanted him to come here. I think that to me it means he doesn't care what OW thinks about where he is. The fact is - he didn't come here (even though he had his stuff with him). I could come up with a million reasons why he didn't, none of them probably the right one. And it's pointless to wonder anyway and I know that. Just doesn't stop the wheels in my mind from endlessly spinning.
So where am I today? Hurt, frustrated, disappointed. Perhaps for no reason at all. Or, maybe rightly so. I think yesterdays convo ended with him saying he wouldn't move back - he'd find some other way. Whatever the hell that means. It still comes down to the same thing - his apparent lack of interest in us. And I don't know what to do.
I bet you were frustrated that you did that. 
