Some of you might have read my thread a couple days ago asking for advice. I guess I am back asking for more advice.
As you might know I am HD my SO of four years is LD. Last month we read STM togethor and made soem strides toward improvement but recently I have felt sex to be a way to appease me and I feel like we are sliding back to our old ways.
My current delema is how to deal with the feelings of our 'old ways' coming back. Especially since discussing this with her can get ugly and is typically very stressfull.
As I explained in my prior thread we went out of town this weekend and we both forgot our contraceptives, but she really didn't care. We still had a fun weekend with lots of EC and on Sunday night when we got home thier was potental for ML but it didn't happen. After all we have been through neither she nor I have any clear idea how to turn her on, except she recomends just 'resting' my hand on her inner thigh or vagina in a way that eventually it will get her in the mood or atleast more receptive. We ended up cuddling in bed and I fell asleep spooning her with my hand positioned in this particular way. She apparently was never turned on, or took this action as a que from we I might be in the mood.
The next night I suprised her when she came home from work with a dvd she had wanted to rent and we watched it together while I gave her a back rub. We went to bed and she mentioned that I should roll over so she could spoon me and rub my stomach and side. I thought and hoped she might be initiating because her request was kind of rare. She ended up rubbing my stomach and sides and running her fingures around my body but she NEVER gave any que that this was a sexual rub....she loves to rub me but it always remains strictly platonic and this drives me crazy. So after a while of her giving me a nice rub that was far from being sexual and no que that she might want to do any thing sexual I roll over and rub her in a similar fashion but eventually we end up in a postion that I am spooning her and my hand is 'resting' on her vagina. Every thing still seemed nice and relaxed but she quickly fell alseep apparently without getting turned on or taking the resting hand on her vagina as any que I might want to do somthing sexual. It is her own suggestion that I use that method as a way to initiate becuase it would make her feel more comfortable, and not pressured. Yet two straight nights it results in her just rolling over and going to sleep.
So I end up laying there in bed thinking to my self that within this relationship I have absolutly no control or influence on when we ML, and any event or action that seems to get her in the mood never works a second time. So I am feeling like I never know when we will make love, I feel I have no inlfluence on the situation and this also makes me feel incredibaly unattractive to her and my self esteem is very low. I feel unattractive and frustrated. Any way...I am laying there tossing and turning not able to sleep due to these feelings. I end up getting up and going onto he web for somthing to do and she wakes up do to me getting up. She follows me into the room and askes if every thing is all right and I reply, "Yeah I just can't sleep." I can't bring it up now because it is sooo late and any discussion is going to get stressfull and carry late into the night. Now this morning I didn't feel like talking either just because I had to go to work and she kept asking me what was wrong, because I was acting weird, but I can't just fake acting happy. So she ended up getting mad at me for acting like I was crabby but I just couldn't deal with discussing our sex life at the moment and discussing my feelings rarely helps any way...so what was the point? Now I am home and she will be home from work soon and I have no idea how to deal with this. She is probaly going to keep asking me what is wrong but talking about this is only going to end up like it does every other time and I never feel like the hasstle and stress of discussing the issue ends up being worth it...because it just ends up happening again a few weeks later.
I just feel like I have no one to talk to about this and no idea what to do.
Every time we talk about this I beg her for somthing I can do to help the situation and she gives me somthign that I can do. I end up doing what ever she suggests but the problems comes back in a couple of weeks. I have tried every thing isn't it her turn to look inward at why she has such a low libido? I feel like I have been incredibly patient, and willing to take responsibilty for my part in this but isn't it her turn to do somthing? When we read STM we wrote down goals that we had for the relationship and things we could do to help each other reach them. I have revisted those goals a few times over the past few weeks but I am positive she has not looked at them or acted on them. Is the LD partner content in the sex they are having so they tend to just not think about the problem? because that is how I feel she acts. She just wants to ignore the situation and hope it goes away all the while I feel lonely, unattractive and frustrated.
I love her so much and she loves me so much it is so hard to imagine leaving her over this but it is equally as hard imagining a life feeling as sex starved, frustrated and unatracive as I do. This is clearly the biggest dilemma of my life because niether choice seems feasable...so in turn I am always searching for a solution.
Why can't she just get turned on? I have so much trouble imgaining life from he persepective as a person who apparently has no sexual fantesies or never has masterbated. I mean what does that mean? This just seems so messed up. I fantazize about her coming to a self realization that she is actually LD and some how she learns how to tunrn her self on and finds me sexually attractive but from what I have read that is extremely not likely. As a man it is important to me that my SO finds me attractive and I turn her on, but despite her repeatetly telling me that I do turn her on etc...her actions and signals are so far from her words.
It really sounds to me like she's simply never discovered what makes her tick sexually. Don't despair, I was once LD myself....as were other women who participate on here. It can change.
Does she have any female friends that you think may be HD that you could encourage her to hang out with? Women who are LD have a bit of a habit of hanging out with other LD women....and they tend to foster an opinion that men just want "SEX". It just so happens that all of my friends are women I would consider HD women, like myself now. Not one of us would talk in a derrogatory manner about sex. You know...now that I think about it....at least 3 of the 4 women I'm very close friends with used to be LD and are now women I'd consider HD especially when listening to them talk about their M's.
I can totally understand alot about what you are saying and experiencing. Was your SO ever more "into" sex? Mine was and then totally shut down.
If I try to talk about it to my wife, it just spirals downward so I know why you avoided talking to her and thus were then labelled "crabby". You cannot get down on yourself though. This is all about her sexual receptiveness to you. I have the same issue. I do not feel unattractive, but I feel like I do not "do it" for her.
It does get lonely though and frustrating. Since I am married, I absolutely will not go elsewhere for sex so I am stuck either w/out sex (or rarely) or I have to leave the relationship entirely.
It's as though the sexual aspect of the realtionship has run it's course and now all that's left is the friendship.
I feel for you. And often I do not know that the low drive person even really understands the depth of how this effects the relationship. You are not alone, if that helps any.
From what I can tell her freinds are also LD. I got into a freindly arguemnt with her best freind when we where out to eat because she said she hated it when her husband aked her to go into the hot tub because she knew it ment he wanted to have sex. I argued that it wasn't a bad thing that her husband wanted to have sex with his wife and she said she usaully would just give him a bj to appease him. From that converstaion she came across as LD or somthing along those lines. I know I was really frustrated when my SO came home from a night with the girls and told me they talked about sex and that they all had the same persecptive about sex with thier SO and that she felt normal after talking to them. I can only imagine that converstation about how they hate having sex with thier SO or or how they hate how thier SO always wants sex etc...
My SO quickly dismisses women with HD as slutty or nasty.
Maybie my SO would argue I always want sex, and I want it to much...and I have struggled with this wondering it my self. But I am only asking for 1-2 times a week with some passions and a reciprocity. So...I don't know it seems pretty resonable.
I struggle with alot of insecurities because of this. I often wonder that if she just had the right man to turn her on she would be good. I have reoccuring dreams that she is cheating on me and when I confront her in the dream she concedes that her other lover is just alot better.
She was out with some other friends for a birthday party and night of club jumping and ended up at a male strip club. She came home that night after some drinking and woke me up at 3:30am and told me she was at a male strip club...at first it was a little distressing especially with my insecurities but she started to initiate sex and rub on me sexually (VERY RARE.) I decided to wake up and take advantage of this oppurtunity, but she feel asleep on me! The whole ordeal crushed me and the whole strip club thing really got to me even though she swore she didn't enjoy it. I kind of wondered why? It would be ok if she enjoyed it a little I mean...it would seem a little more sexual atleast.
I think the times all of this is the hardest is after a day of fun togethor that envolved EC and a little flirting and we go to bed and she just falls asleep, I can never handle those nights I always toss and turn and get really resentfull.
For valentines day we got a hotel room and went to see Sienfeld perform. We had some drinks and really enjoyed the show. Our hotel room was a jaquizi sweet and we went back to the room and turned on the tv and got into the jaquizi togethor. we laid so that we were facing each other and started by giving each other foot rubs. My back was to the tv but she told me it seemed I was paying to much to what was on the tv. I turned of the tv to focus more on her but to was to late apparently the mood was ruined. We actually started to have sex at some point but she was so not into it I had to stop...it was very akward and frustrating.
These threads really got me thinking about her before we had this problem and we where both the same sex drive and she was playfull and into sex. Thinking of those times just makes me want them back so much more.
She was more sexual. The first year we dated she was awsome in bed, a little inexperineced (so was I) but she was playfull and adventurous. She really didn't have sexual fantesies or ever masterbate but she seemed really into our sex life.
Our problems started when her sister got pregnant and she developed a fear of pregnancy. We were using two forms of BC but she couldn't get over that fear. She never shared that fear with me though and left me wondering and confused. Since this first developed a combination of many factors have hindured us, some seen and some I feel that have yet to be seen. Ofcourse I have heard every excuse in the book on why this is an issue, but I have addressed every one of them as they come along yet it always comes back to her having no desire.
I also agree that is appears hard for the LD person to relate because they are content with the situation ofcourse besides thier SO is 'crabby' and resentfull. I mean they seem satisfied with the amount of sex and have trouble understanding why thier SO wants more. I guess they same could be said for the HD not being able to relate to the LD but...I feel like I am the one doing the work to fix this while she just ignores the issue.
As for bringing up the issue that is thin ice. Brining this up can lead to very stressfull arguements, very little progress, and more pressure on her to perform and in turn less sex and passion for every one.
I know one problem we have is that this stupid issue has become such a wall for us that it really keeps the passion down because at the oppurtunity for passion thier is that 'pink elephant' in the room that no one wants to address but every one is thinking about. (if that makes any sense.)
SS Reading your story made me cringe because I have been right where you are too. I am really starting to wonder if there is a secret order of LD wives where they all meet, eat finger sandwiches, and discuss plots to emotionally devastate their Hs. On a serious note, here are a few thoughts that might help.
Laying together and touching: The subtle approach of coming on to a LD partner is as effective as trying to clean the Brooklyn Bridge with a toothbrush. As you have seen, she simply does not have sex on her mind. Therefore, your actions will not be interpreted as intended. If you want to ML, you really just need to swallow your fear, step up, and ask for it.
Since your W suggested the touching method, then that is a blinking billboard that she wants more of a EC with you. If she is good with spooning and your touch method, then keep it up. Though, I would suggest that you drop the expectation that the touch time will lead to more. In fact, it would probably be really beneficial to regularly have these touch sessions that don’t lead to sex. It will help to build your EC and trust foundation.
Expecting to ML at the end of a touch session is also a huge trap in a way. If you go into touch time with the hope that it will lead to more, the times it does not happen are going to really feel terrible to say the least. Thus, if you guys start up a touch thing and you know up front that you really want it to go somewhere, address that need right away and come to an agreement before you start.
Hope this helps
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
You avoid talking about it because getting into a fight about it with your SO is stressful. This ain’t going away anytime soon. You are just going to have to deal with getting into fights about it. I am not suggesting that fights are a good thing, but you have to keep this at the front of her mind. She cannot be allowed to sink into her comfort zone thinking everything is fine with being LD. It is up to you to make it not fine.
She is only ever going to begin to change her ways and address the issue if you are making it not fine. Really I would lay it on the line with her and say “I want this issue addressed or we are not getting married. Our SL used to be great, you developed a pregnancy phobia, you need to get that sorted out or we ain’t getting married” That is the bottom line, if she starts blame-shifting and coming up with a bunch of excuses or things you could try, then just repeat that the bottom line is you’re not marrying her unless the issue gets resolved.
Take it from me who has been married 15 years you do not want to go into marriage with a habit of miscommunication. Next time she falls asleep on you that way wake her up, tell that it is not OK to fall asleep on you. If that puts her in a bad mood fine, don’t worry about it, the job is done and next time she will think twice.
Getting into fights is something we all fear, our SOs have ways of pressing our buttons and making us lose our rags. The more you face that challenge and learn techniques of not getting pulled into it by her the more you can get better at communicating with her.
Lots of things to do: Read Lilliepearls thread “come to your senses” it helps when you are getting stressed out Stay on message, don’t react to what she says, listen to it, try to think about what she is protecting by saying what she says. Try to remain “above” the fray, look at her and think about something like how flushed her cheeks look, or the way her lips move or something that helps take the sting of her words away and leave your mind calmer so you can stay on message easier rather than just give as good as you get. Do not allow any shouting, verbal abuse, name calling etc.
Example conversation: _________________ Sammy: I am still not happy about our SL GF: That’s because blah, blah Or I know you’re not honey but I am doing my best
Sammy: How is falling asleep on me when I do the things you say you like doing your best?
GF: I can’t help falling asleep
Sammy: Yes you can, you can think “it would be really nice for Sammy if we made love – so I am going to get over myself and just do it”
GF: Well I just can’t do that, you don’t understand how I feel. Your great big paws all over me – blah blah
Sammy: I know I don’t understand but that’s not the point, you need to understand how you feel and come up with some way of not feeling like that.
GF: So why is it my problem – you’re the sex maniac?
Sammy: Yes I am a sex maniac, I am a you maniac and I like having sex with you. Our SL used to be great, and something about you has changed. You either work on yourself to sort this out or we don’t get married. _______________________ You have the HUGE advantage over most of the rest of us here in that you are not yet married and don’t have kids. For that reason you have great leverage in the situation. You might just want to add that you have no qualms about getting D if the situation reverts back once the rings are on.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
First off thnaks for the reply Haphazard it is really informative and thoughtfull!
Secondly I have an update on my situation that is actually a very big revelation for us. But I am not sure if it is good or bad and what to do next.
Ok so she comes home last night and I still didn't know what to say to handle the sitaution but we ended up talking about the situation. When I first explaind the situation and how I felt she told me that I wasn't making her feel special this past weekend. (This was one of the things she had asked for out of the relationship or somthing I work on etc...) her telling me this kind of made me mad because I actually tried really hard to make her feel special and I could easily site a few dozen things I went out of my way to make her feel special. I have always been willng to listen to things I can do better to help this situation but I really felt this was a 'cop out' on her part especially since the night before I suprised her with a dvd that she wanted to watch not me and a movie watching with back rubs. Plus she really couldn't cite any specific instance that I didn't treat her special and she also could not think of any thing I could have doen better or different.
*I'll cut the crap and get to the big part of the story.
After a little talking etc...and me being armed with info from 4 hours of reading this board I have her an a choice. I told her I would continue working on making her feel special and I would keep working at the relationship but I couldn't go on with her telling me she had the desire but acting like she didn't it was making me crazy and that it was a wall in front of us getting any better.
For some reason this must have hit home and after months and months of talking and fighting she finaly admited she had no desire!
She broke down crying and said she had been keeping it from me because she thought I would be mad. (This is what I had expected.) She admited that this drove her crazy and she thought about it al the time, that she felt like a freak and that she sees poeple on TV and in reall life talk about sex and enjoy sex and she just wanted to be normal. She said that is why she likes the tv show 'sex in the city' because she just wanted to be like those people. She even said that she always wondered when she was younger why she wasn't as sexual and she just assumed that when she got a boyfriend it would come naturaly. This is a huge break through because she has always insisted that she had desire. I qualmed any desire to be angery at this point, I wanted to say "why couldn't we have gotton this out along time ago." I was really reassuring and I promised that it was great that she was being honest and that this was going to help the situation and that most of the reasons I get mad is because of the 'mixed signal' thing. I told her I was happy she was being honest and I promised we would work togethor on this as a team. I told her that she was going to have to take alot of responsibility in looking into her self and working on this but I would be at her side and help her.
She is going to be home from work in 4-5 hours and we are going to talk about this and her desire so I need advive on how to handle this situation! What do I say? What do I suggest? What are some of things I can suggest that migth help?
