Today - I have officially moved myself to this area of DB. I have been home over a week and have had to do my share of DB'ing already. This time getting back together has been less enthusiastic on both of our parts. However, we have had some fun.
Yesterday, I had to get something off my chest and I reacted rather than acted, I guess you could say. I just don't know how to handle the BIG things in a way that is effective. I was paying bills last night and I get to the credit card bills. I thought I knew about all the charges H made in his strip club binge - from seeing a DIFFERENT credit card bill. I think I mentioned it in a previous post.
The reason I thought this was all was because H never mentioned any others. Well... last night I saw the rest. It was a whopping $656 total on both cards - I had already taken the cards themselves back. He just never mentioned any details about any of it - I did not ask as this is what Arnold had suggested would be a 180 for me, however, I found out he had not told me how many times he had been (still has not) and how much $ total he blew (he has not accounted for a $700 bonus he got in early march or several check advances during the same month)
Last night I did not attack him, but I must say I did react - I was so shocked by what I saw!!! I could not just let it go! - I said , "Honey, I did not realize that you had used ___ card at the strip clubs. too! And asked did you know that you spent $ amount, etc. I did get upset as we had agreed that we weren't going to use these cards - I am using my whole paycheck to whittle down our debt - and he does this.
I felt lied to all over again, as he had not been forthcoming in this information before I found it - we have talked about this issue on only 2 occasions since I moved out, and both times I brought it up.
I cannot just brush huge things under the rug without mentioning them at all - as H would like, it seems from his inability to bring them up himself.
He said it is in the past, he knows it was wrong, said he was sorry, he's making it up what more do I want him to do?! He said this matter of factly in a very loud voice - sounds really sincere!
I have to assume that "making it up" means $, because making it up to me would mean acknowledging how I feel about it- he has not - He responds to my anger (I did not yell or make disrespectful judgements - I speak in I messages and about the worst I can say is that I use a "firm" tone of voice)with defensiveness and anger back at me - I swear I did not attack him! I held myself back from saying much of what I wanted to -
My biggest problem with all of it was that he had not told me about this and let me be surprised - and then got mad when I wanted more information, and wanted him to try to understand how I was feeling about it. REMEMBER THIS WAS THE CULMINATING EVENT THAT CAUSED ME TO MOVE OUT.
I'm sure I could have/should have handled it differently - but I don't know how - I was as gentle as I could have been without seeming whiny when I brought it up - inside I was outraged!!!
This was a matter that needed to be addressed in some way - even though it is in the past - full disclosure has not been made - I have been waiting for 6 weeks for him to tell me about it!
I am ready for the feedback about how I approached him - I know this is what I would say to someone else in my position - however - This was a biggie, and I did not blast him! I DID want to talk about it! I DID push when he would not - That is about the only thing I regret - I don't know how else to be heard, and I don't know any other way to get a response (even knowing the response I would get would be difficult at best)
I am rambling now - so I'll leave it for the comments of you wise people... Man , you would think I have been at this long enough to figure out how to do this kind of interaction!!!
Hi there, You mentioned Arnold,so I assume you are receiving counseling and that is imperative. Your H did not tell you about the extent of his expenditures,because he knew you would be angry and he really can't explain his behavior.It really is indefensible. The excessive spending on strip clubs may be a type of compulsive behavior and he needs help in dealing with this.It will continue to be a problem unless he gets treatment. In regards to paying the debt,he should be responsible,not you.Could you suggest that the two of you involve a credit counseling service and let them set up the payback,rather than you.I would avoid being seen as the savior as he will resent you for it.It all about control. Just a few thoughts...Jenny
I agree with Jenny. Let him pay for the charges. Transfer them to an account in his name. Discuss it with Arnold if you need to.
The reason your H gets defensive is cus he hates getting his nose rubbed in is past actions. He knows they were wrong. My W lied for the same reasons. When your spouse becomes unhappy at home, they go looking for peace and entertainment elsewhere. You need to figure out what drove your H away. It is a key element to reconciling. Don't expect him to tell you what it is either. Hell, he may not even know what it is.
Maybe you kept too tight of reins on things like finances. Maybe you worried about stuff so much that you forgot to have fun.
Naw, not BB!
Huh!
Maybe?
When was the last time you two went out and had some fun?
I read through your stuff. Wow! Kent is right about the disclosure. I've had to let go. I kept asking more and more questions. We were in C and that's where I'd get into it with him. Things would be okay during the week but then it seemed like everytime we went to C I just unleashed everything I'd been stewing about internally. We weren't there with our Hs and we'll never know it all. I went back through my planner and looked at the dates on the credit card statements and looked at what I was doing when he went "there". I felt so manipulated by him. I was being the responsible one, taking care of our kids, our home, paying the bills while he was supposedly "working". He told me he was working and I believed him. I guess that makes me the enabler.
C also told me that his going "there" didn't have to do with me - it had to do with how he felt about himself. His sense of manhood. Not feeling like the head honcho of the family. (He started traveling with his job and turned over the bill paying, the child rearing, the house upkeep, everything about our lives he turned over to me. Whenever I'd ask for help or input he was distant or wouldn't respond. I stopped asking his input and withdrew emotionally, big mistake.)
I refuse to be the victim. At first, I fell apart right in front of him and was the little victim. Thank God that's over. H has done a 180 on me with his behavior. Sometimes I think that it's all to good to be true. C says my anger comes from either my frustration or fear. I've been working on me - not letting me get frustrated. And I'm facing my fear. My fear is that he'll lie again or deceive me in some way. I've done my research on the club thing and am over any "fear of the unknown". At least your H took you there so you experienced for yourself. My H refuses to take me, even now, and you know from reading my stuff that I wasn't able to get in there alone.
Actually, I rented a video last Friday night and watched it while H was out doing the weekly sports thing with the guys. It's called In the Flesh and is interviews with women who are in that industry. It was informative, not entertaining and took any remaining mystery out of it for me. I've rented other videos, too. I've even learned the art of that type of dance via video tapes and gave H a little sample the other night. (Go, Violet!) Thanks to the DBers who suggested it.
The main thing that I have been able to do is get strong within myself. I continue to exercise, eat right, work out, take care of me. Whatever happens in the future, I know that I am a better person. My H volunteered to give up the club thing and I am trying my hardest to trust that. (Although, I did get caught up in the snooping but now I keep myself busy and am breaking myself of that.) I am trying to be the best me and the best W that I can be. If things fall apart again, I am strong enough to handle that.
My H is embarassed about the clubs and that's why he won't discuss it. He's afraid he'll say something that I'll latch onto and then decide that's the last straw - if you did such and such, H, then it's over. C told me she respected H's decision not to give me details. That pi**ed me off.
Anyway, I decided the club stuff was the catalyst that got us to C, to Retrouvaille, and back on the right path to each other. I exhausted myself with thinking about the past but now I see that I'm so much better off if I live for today and plan for the future. Do what works - do what moves me towards H - don't do things that move me away from H. I feel so much better.
If H deceives me again, it's over. I know it and so does he. I have my limits. He's doing so many things that are right. The people on this BB have helped me so much, too.
I know it feels...it's like holding your breath and waiting for the NEXT lie, the NEXT credit card charge you didn't know about...and in my case, the NEXT IM screen name or email account to be revealed. When you say:
"I felt lied to all over again, as he had not been forthcoming in this information before I found it - we have talked about this issue on only 2 occasions since I moved out, and both times I brought it up."
I have also said pretty much those exact words-H and I talked the other night (of course I brought it up) and he said that he wants to put the whole thing as far behind him as possible. I had to bite my tongue and not reply 'Well that's great honey-and where does that leave me?' because, as you say here:
"I cannot just brush huge things under the rug without mentioning them at all - as H would like, it seems from his inability to bring them up himself."
Me neither. In my never-ending search for the "WHY" of the A, what led him to it and his emotional state that he was in when he made the decision, I have learned just how incapable my H is of understanding and facing his own feelings. Like Kent says, he may not even know himself, my H says he doesn't know...I like to believe the picture is becomming more clear to him and pray that he will eventually be able to talk to me-UNsolicited by me. For now I have to let go of that intense need to know.
"He said it is in the past, he knows it was wrong, said he was sorry, he's making it up what more do I want him to do?!"
Am there, heard that, and FEEL this:
"This was a matter that needed to be addressed in some way - even though it is in the past - full disclosure has not been made - I have been waiting for 6 weeks for him to tell me about it!"
The only thing I can offer that might help you pretty much sucks in the way of advice..and that is patience. (see told you it sucks) I am probably the most impatient person you'd ever meet, but then again, I have a feeling you'all know exactly how this feels!
You have gotten some great ideas from Kent and Violet (a.k.a. 'the dancer chick', girl that was great-I'll have to try that myself, what a kick!)
Listen to them. Their advice is sound. It is hard, but one thing I have realized since posting here (rebuilding) is that as long as you are making positive steps toward yourself, your spouse and your marriage, no matter how small and seemingly unnoticed they are by the spouse, you are STILL moving forward.
As far as the way you approached you H, to you it seemed that you did not attack him, you were calm and rational, did not yell or accuse. Good job, but I will tell you (only because H has told C and me) that no matter what the tone of voice, how calm and rational I may sound, no matter how I term it or the context, it's the MESSAGE that I am sending....i.e., 'you're a cheater and a lying bastard' - that's what HE hears, he feels GUILT. A whole lotta GUILT and shame. Because he knows he messed up BIG TIME and he cannot change it.
Try to keep this in mind...his guilt is not your fault, and maybe you should tell him that you understand it makes him feel bad, but there are gonna be times when you need to talk about it. I have told my H that I understand it makes him feel bad and guilty and ashamed; but too bad. There are times I need to talk about it, and I need him to talk back. I promised not to yell, or belittle, or even be the slightest bit snippy. He agreed. (I also told him to suck it up and face it like a man-but that's when I was still being snippy).
One thing I have started doing as well, when I find something I think he's lied about or is currently lying about, I mention it...do not ask for any details, and drop it without a second thought (well, at least that's what I let him think). The few times I've been able to do it he's come back with an explanation. I think if he feels that it doesn't bother or hurt me, then it's 'safe' for him to talk about it. So far they have been pretty unsignificant issues...but I'm working on it!
He has said many times he doesn't ever want to hurt me again-wants to spare my feelings-protect me...perhaps your H feels his is doing this by not telling you everything-even when asked? I know, I know, if he doesn't want to hurt you...there are many better ways to do that...like, um....NOT cheating??!!!
B-I hope you don't mind, I wanted to commiserate with Violet for a minute...
"We weren't there with our Hs and we'll never know it all. I went back through my planner and looked at the dates on the credit card statements and looked at what I was doing when he went "there". I felt so manipulated by him. I was being the responsible one, taking care of our kids, our home, paying the bills while he was supposedly "working". He told me he was working and I believed him. I guess that makes me the enabler."
Control. I feel controlled and manipulated too.
"C also told me that his going "there" didn't have to do with me - it had to do with how he felt about himself. His sense of manhood. Not feeling like the head honcho of the family. (He started traveling with his job and turned over the bill paying, the child rearing, the house upkeep, everything about our lives he turned over to me. Whenever I'd ask for help or input he was distant or wouldn't respond."
The only difference (well, besides the club thing-with my H it was OW) here is that I didn't withdraw totally from him. He pushed me away-he says from guilt over the A. He told me later, when he returned from the year of work overseas is that he KNEW I'd be able to handle everything, because I am a strong person, "she'll be fine without me".
Even though I was telling him daily that I needed him, missed him, hated to be doing this without him there, would wait for him-"because WE were worth it" (what a laugh THAT one is, because as I was saying this, he was taking on with OW). What all I was saying to him was MY version of enabling him.
My C said the same things, and so has my H. His A was not at all about me. But because I still don't have his story of WHY and what led him to it, I totally blamed myself. If he couldn't tell me what it was/is, then surely it must be my fault.
I know this is a crock. I am also not faultless in this either, from my point of view I have already owned what I feel I should own. But am still quite puzzled as to what HE felt I contributed to his 'making of the horrible decision'-thing. I have suggested a number of theroies to him...and his reply is always, 'no, that's not it'.
I didn't cause it, it was not about me, I do admit to enabling...but damit I still want to know WHY he felt this was the only thing he could do to make himself feel better, the only thing that would 'fix' this crappy situation we were in. I think he was escaping...although to this, he also says 'no that's not it'.
I will take my own advice here and practice what I preach....patience. Lots of it. And reading to gain more of the other perspective... He may never be able to tell me what I feel I need to know so I know I have to let go of it.
Today I choose to be happy, to forgive and move forward. (even tho those demons still try to eat away at my insides....)
Ladies, *************************************** He may never be able to tell me what I feel I need to know so I know I have to let go of it. ***************************************
You all know this to be true, so stop obsessing about it. Start looking at these thoughts as your problem, cus they are. I have been waiting for the answers for better than 7 months now. I am only curious now because I recognize that W is working to make things better. This is more than she ever did in our relationship. This is what is important. The past no longer brings me pain. Istill have thoughts about it, but more as a reflective thought on what I learned. Push yourself in that direction.
I used to obsess about this same stuff. It only stopped when I started treating the obsession as a serious problem. I delt with it daily for weeks. Then I dealt with it weekly for months. Now I don't deal with it at all. It's gone.
Don't sit around waiting for the next lie. Decide how you will deal with it when it smacks you in the face and move on. Let go of the worry. You are wasting your life and limiting your ability to be happy.
It's sunny, warm and everything is turning green in Illinois. The beauty of living is in the fact that everything is constantly changing. Don't fight the change, go with it.
I know you are right. I still struggle tho...and I know this is because I was niave enough to believe in the sanctity and fidelity of my marriage before this whole fiasco happened. And because I thought we had it so good, it is such a letdown, and because I cannot figure it all out-it pisses me off.
I told my H 'I know you would never cheat on me-because you love me and believe in us'. I blame myself for that unrealistic view of OR. Perhaps it made him feel that there was NO way he could live up to that...dunno.
I know I need to let go of it all....the resentment over what he has done, the anger, the hurt and betrayal, AND moreover, my intense need to know why. I realize I may never know why.
But, really Kent-don't take obsessing away from me???!!! PPPLLLLEEEAAASSEEEEEEE? I am a woman, I whine....besides, you say it like it's a bad thing....
Ok...here's the deal-I'll only do it a little bit! And certainly only here (or inside my own head). (sorry just feeling a bit playful today)
In the 7 months since I found out the whole truth I have come a long way... I feel better about myself and everyday I wake up next to H I know for that fact alone, it will be a great day. Sappy as it sounds, I still truely believe that what we have together is worth it. This is the man I want to share my life and grow old with.
I told him something this past weekend that was pretty hard for me...since the bomb dropped I had always harped on 'I meant my vows-you obviously did not-you were not faithful'...but....I lost sight of the entire message of my vows because I also said, 'for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, through good times and bad times'.
Guess it's time to mean that too, huh and get on back to the marriage I thought I had-only this time I'm taking off those darn blinders....or is it rose colored glasses?!
L p.s. I didn't say the 'obey' thing tho, I told the minister I would only say it if H did too. For some reason the minister did not see the humor in this, or maybe it was just because H and I were giggling....??
About whining - I eventually got sick of hearing my own whine and it doesn't do ya any good. I decided to take the whine and do something with that energy in the form of exercise - walking, jogging, kickboxing. The kickboxing instructor told me I was whopping a pretty mean punch. If he only knew! Get going. Stop whining. Do something good for yourself that will help propel you forward and get your mind off the past. It's over and we can't change it!
About the vows - I know. So what part of "honor, love, cherish" is our spouse thinking of when they engage in activities that betray us? (Where's Harlequinn? I hope he's proud of me that I didn't make that comment exclusive to Hs that betray Ws.) The stickler vow part for me is the better/worse and in good times and in bad. Worse and bad stink. But those times are real. Everytime I start thinking D, I remember that part of the vows. I said them and I meant them. I long for "better" and "good times" and am taking responsibility by doing my part to make that happen.
Listen to Kent. It's warm and sunny here today, too. Get out there and enjoy it!
Violet
P.S. Watch the Sopranos if you need some new "dance" moves. (ha!) I turned our den into the "VIP Room" the other night and shocked H beyond belief.
