Burgbud posted those page links on Heatherg's thread "Am I Creating a SSM Part IV "
I can see a communication pattern in my R with BB, where something factual and supposedly neutral has an accusatory tone added onto some words.
I did not read more than the articles, so am not vouching or promoting anything, but it is worth reading. Make up your own opinion, but look when you have the time.
When I am with her, my fire of hesitation burns bright. The fear of rejection due to years of rejection makes me hesitate, or not act congruently with my feelings, and that adds fuel to the fire. I must climb this mountain. Are We Twins? I am pulling for you Chrom.
Quote: I know I am partially responsible for it not being there. When I am with her, my fire of hesitation burns bright.
You're not responsible for any of her feelings. I know it would be easier if you could believe you are... because at least then you could do something. But you aren't.
Sorry you are so sad Chrome. It's amazing how far you have come. Just the way you describe "being yourself" around other women and not worrying about how you are coming across to them. That is a huge step. The guilt is probably your next big challenge. You've got to ditch that mentality because it will only make things worse. No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. So what. Do you think my H would be benefiting and our M benefiting if he constantly felt Guilt all the time. He would probably come across less than confident and that would not make me feel confident about the M either. I'm sure your W can see this in you as well. So what to do? Well, stop telling yourself you Shouldn't do this or that, you Shouldn't feel this or that. It is what it is. Some people might think I'm playing with fire here by suggesting this, but I say flirt up a storm with these "other women" who obviously find you attractive. You are strong enough to know not to cross the line. And as someone else noted, maybe Lil, it's often the chase and feeling that level of attraction from someone else, not any sexual act itself that is what many are looking for. Validation. Desirability. What do you think happens when I go out with the girls and flirt with drunk boys,lol. I know I'm not going to do anything over the line. But it makes me feel good and maybe gives me some validation I crave at home. You are getting just about zilch from your W so I don't see anything wrong with seeking Some from "other women." The trick is to make sure you don't run into this person again and again. Pick someone at a bar, club, grocery store, book store, you get the idea. NOT work, school, etc. Risk of an EA/PA there. My H stated as much to me last week. I told him I thought it would be fun to be a hostess or something at one of the nicer bar/restaurant's in town. He said "No way. That's all I need. Drunk men who know where to find you day in and day out." He then went on to state he doesn't care if I go out and do flirty stuff with the girlfriends around because those guys are only around me that one night. No risk for continued contact. So anyways, I stick by what I said before, stay out of trouble, but that doesn't mean don't have fun. And it's ok to get some validation from others. I know you want that from your W more than anyone but, it's just not something you can force. It's on her to SEE it and FEEL it. Other women do, you know it, it's not you and that is something to hold onto. You are going to be fine Chrome. Hang in there. FFL
Chrome... I am sorry you are hurting. The emotional triggers combined with the negative self talk, leading to misery, is just the scenario Lil was painting for you in her Identity System discussion. I disagree with LFL you should get " into the action" and flirt...I think that will just increase the guilt. You need to get back to you, the essence of Chrome. There are different methods of calming down...perhaps Lil's suggestion of just quietly sitting alone and taking in all the senses around you will give you a moment of peace. And sometimes that's all you need...one moment of clarity, and you can expand to find the joy and wonder again that's in your soul. You don't " need" these other women to validate you. And I know you know that's taking the easy ( but oh so alluring) path. You have the ability to work the issues through.
Other suggestions for self soothing: pick up a book, go for a walk, take some deep breaths, look at nature, sit with your feelings til the worst is over, call a friend, talk to the twins, etc.
And whatever occurs on this trip please do not be so hard on yourself. We'll deal with whatever...you have a lot of support on this board...I am proud of you for coming here to vent.
Other suggestions for self soothing: pick up a book, go for a walk, take some deep breaths, look at nature, sit with your feelings til the worst is over, call a friend, talk to the twins, etc.
If the issue was simply self-soothing, I'd agree with those suggestions. But we are talking about Chrome feeling good about himself as an attractive, sexual person. All the things you listed are simply sublimating any sexuality that he is clearly feeling. Sublimation is a classic defense mechanism, and while often helpful, is not a long term solution. But I knew my suggestion would be poo-pooed Still, it's like telling me instead of enjoying that big chocolate cake, have a salad instead. Hardly satisfying. I'm simply saying instead of the chocolate cake (hot sex with his W), try a fat free fudgsicle (flirting with other women) instead. That's still within the same "family" and a much more palatable option I think. But that's just the LFL perspective, no one said it was the right one.
Well, aren't those fudgsicles a form of sublimation? I say Chrome waits it out to have a chance with the real thing, the cake. Those fudgsicles are just artificial garbage that will only serve to leave a bad taste in his mouth.
Hmmm... I'm not sure if you're joking or not there IHJ. So all flirting is "garbage", is that the implication? We live in such a puritanical culture as it is, I just think having guilt over flirting with someone in a checkout line is ridiculous. No one said he should turn into a swinger. Sheesh. But you are so right, men like Chrome will feel guilty and lots of females will look at any women who god forbid flirts with her man as "garbage." That's sad. But a larger issue than this particular discussion.
Im not down with you waiting four months for the lactation gang to leave either. But you can get back to that when you return home. Hopefully the ladies can give you some more solid ideas on how to deal with it. But it seems you have just felt a big key item
Just be yourself, and dont hide it for fear of your W's reaction, or the pain and struggle she absolutely WILL have to go thru to become a better W for you. You will have to be able to handle her pain. She will externalize it at you. Thats why its called tough love.
How long are you gone for? 3 weeks?
maybe just this overall "softening" in every manner of their being when they get near me, or talk to me, or listen to me
You act like a man, so you are surrounded by women. Thats life. No biggie. You can always act like a male person anytime you choose/need to.
it is too easy for it to be so hard at home. you have 10? years of acting like a male person to overcome with your wife.
Get over the guilt. Its useless. Your A is done, and gone and past. Get over the guilt of 'being a bad H' or whatever monologue you have in your head. Its useless to you and your W also. This has to be accomplished first, before you can set boundaries and differentiate enough to let her be responsible for her actions and feelings.
ex. good inner voice. ' yep I messed up. Yep we are here. but its not the right place. I have to do _______ to get to the right place. '
Take the time to go back and read thru Nops journey. It wasnt easy, at all. It takes strength, determination and a huge confidance in self that the course you are taking is 'the right one' when making and requiring changes in any R where you are the leader.
I dont think you should flirt, very much. Your really vulnerable right now, in many ways. I dont think you should hide either. So there. A third person and a third opinion. You dont have to 'run away' when the escalation causes fear and hesitation in you. Be yourself, live life, and have your boundaries in place. Women feel it when they bump into them. Never apologize for your boundaries. Dont cross those and feel your strength and confidance IN YOURSELF increase. I think that would be a good thing, to help you develop a little thicker skin.
Enjoy your workshops Chromo. Hangout, have fun, meet people. be in control of you, dont worry about others. Use that big noggin of yours to think of ways to stop letting your wife box you in, and how you can institute changes at home.
It does naturally progress. Its built in. In the scenario you are in it is exacerbated on several levels, by the techniques and time constraints of the workshops themselves. This is your life for a long time to come though. So if I taught you too well (lol, are you externalizing on me? ) how to see it progress, all I have done is give you the ability to be aware of yourself, and know you must have-- and where too, place your boundaries. You may have been naive at one time. You may have been unaware. Your neither now. What you do with your perception abilities is yours, big man. Thanks for the complement though. You should take it as one too.
I’m with what everyone here is saying. Stop the guilt. You’ve paid your penance, the slate is wiped clean, for your part of the responsibility that is. Your wife still has not paid for her part (and she has significant responsibility in promoting the A). Don’t feel any responsibility for her. That rescuing/martyr behavior is partly what got the two of you in this mess to begin with.
I tend to agree somewhat with LFL in that a healthy form of flirting may be good for you, but more along the lines of friendly, witty diplomacy, kind of like Cary Grant. I think it is important for you to eventually bring this natural part of yourself out into the open. It has always been there but your issues kept it suppressed. Time to begin evolving into the true Chromosphere.
Your wife might get jealous, who cares. That is her problem. She needs to work on herself and grow. She is resisting and in her passive aggressive way doing all she can to pull you back down to where you were before, just like Schnarch warns. Don’t go there or you will not only hurt yourself, but her as well. If you truly love your wife, then you have little choice but to continue to grow and evolve and offer her the incentive to pull herself up to your level. Anything else will eventually be disastrous to her, your marriage and your kids.
BTW, I think it was Balto talking about his two teenage girls and their “attitude.” When your two twins become teenagers, you will see more and more of your wife in them. That will include the bad as well as the good. If you do not keeping doing everything in your power to push you and your wife’s growth, you may be looking at two girls angry at life, men and masters of deflection. So I see only one path for you – work on the true you. Do whatever you think is right and proper, regardless of concern for your wife because the choice you make will already be in her best interest as well.
(One other thing, I saw you mention that I do not post often on your thread. That has nothing to do with you. I like and admire you very much. I am of the opinion that you need to move to a stronger position toward your wife. I know you are not quite ready for that, so the advice of others seems much better than what I can provide right now.)
Ah, you knew I'd pop in again when you start slipping.
To follow up behind our good friend blackfoot Another M here to extend a hand to help pull you up, slap the dust off, and give you a hearty back pat. Roll with the punches baby, I'm right in the trenches with ya there--emotional pain's a b!tch but it comes and goes so just remember to stand firm and feel it flow right around/past you...like a boulder in a river.
I want you to think about energy. You're an astrophysics god so I know you're good at picturing that. There's an effective use of energy and an ineffective use or waste of energy.
Suffering is the latter. And we all suffer from things in our minds from time to time. Ahhh, methinks there's a joke in there somewheres...ah, yes, now I remember:
M is a 3-Ring Circus: Engagement Ring. Wedding Ring. And Suffering.
Anyboohoo, thinking about your past A this time of year and your current barren SL is causing you to burn up a lot of energy better used elsewhere.
Suffering is the burning up/wasting of large stores of emotional energy on things over which we have zero control. It's all in your head. So shut the valve off and try and quit accessing those old terrible repetitive thoughts. Switch them with good thoughts instead.
If you want to dwell in the past then go back to when you received your PhD or received a promotion or the birth of your kids. Damn, a guy like me could be enviable of all of those things, frankly. Would be feathers in my cap for sure. (so better be careful I might steal them if you're lost in past pain and not paying attention)
The best part about the past is it's past. So next time these self-loathing feelings come back up forcefully switch your frame to those good things I mentioned. Why not? They're all just transient electrical firings anyway and not real or, most importantly, having a direct impact on the events in the present--like affecting your paycheck, for instance. Why not have fun with them? Plenty of time for pain for us all in the future, no use marinating in the past in the present...And we all end up pruney/wrinkly with bitterness.
I like what blackfoot says below and I wanted to continue with his comment...
You dont have to 'run away' when the escalation causes fear and hesitation in you. Be yourself, live life, and have your boundaries in place. Women feel it when they bump into them. Never apologize for your boundaries. Dont cross those and feel your strength and confidance IN YOURSELF increase. I think that would be a good thing, to help you develop a little thicker skin.
-- Ditto. And my thoughts on the other Fs and this flirting issue are if they start flirting with you, let them. Banter if you want but not too much at this point in your progress. Where I see you're having a problem now is your sense of fear of the attention. Yes, as BF says engaging in innocent escalation while also having confidence and strong boundaries is a good way to get that thicker skin.
I will only add it's important for you, while you're building this thicker skin to also rmind yourself every minute that you are an M who is comfortable in that same skin--no matter what the epidermal tensile strength.
Your posted reaction to F attention is showing you are not solid in your core of who you are...that you're afraid of an improper F advance. Stop this fear ASAP. You are the man. You are the chooser of your path. You are in control of your own destiny. When you are truly comfortable in your own skin an F can unbutton her blouse and put her foot in your crotch under a table and you can just smile smugly and think to yourself, "I could reciprocate with her and even escalate...but I choose not to. Quite flattering though. She just gave me a high compliment."
You see? The very confident comfortable self-assured M who is dedicated to his W the way you are to your W will not even flinch at a test like this but rather laugh it off and think it's cute while even putting the F in her place with a comment like,
"Maybe you should try that on a single M. When you do that to an married M it doesn't send a very good message about your character, sweetheart. But thanks for the compliment"
See how you control the interaction? Don't give F sexuality and approaches that kind of power over you. Always lead.
And another positive. This F "softening" you see now. More compliments. And more potential inner dialogue like:
"So I know it's not me. I'm not an hunchbacked ugly sexually repulsive troll. Then again, I bet the F at the table and these other Fs around me would act differently if they all had to take care of 3 of my babies under 3 running around all day long. Probably would turn tail and run at the thought." <inner dialogue chromo laughs>
Keep smiling over your images of your kids while you're gone, Chromey. And think thoughts of appreciation for W for not being some complaining F who would rather just dump your kids off with a sitter or family member and prefer to go out partying with her GFs while you're away. By the way, it's very true that the more positive thoughts you send out to a loved one the more somehow it is mysteriously received by them on an unconscious level.
I'm tempted to go into my whole comparison of the Earth and a computer hard disk but won't. Will just say info is encoded and decoded on spinning objects that are reliant upon electromagnetic fields.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
I am pulling for you Chrom.
Hardly satisfying.