I don’t really care what your position is on any issues, since I don’t see you making any posts of value whatsoever. If you don’t like my style, if you think I create straw men or men of any other material, don’t read my posts. I will continue to make inferences of others on this board because much of what I am trying to do is understand what it is that people do not see within themselves and learn how to bring those issues to the light of day. I have a direct interest in this for my own sitch.
This means I am trying to identify an unknown, and a moving unknown at that. All the while I, and others here, must poke around while dodging deflections, defensiveness, anger, etc. That will often mean NOT taking too direct of an approach. You are hung up on the tone, the method of speaking. It you’ve got better insights with a better method, then let’s see it. Either put up or shut up.
If the method I and others use offends you so much, then I bet you’ve got issues on self respect, self esteem, etc. So why don’t you be direct and admit to it. Stop dancing around your insecurities and putting fault back on others for your own issues. I’m through dealing with you. Is that direct enough?
I'm not following you... What do you mean by what I just did? Do you mean what was it Burgbud found offensive? In that case, I'm not exactly sure what his beef is, nor does Lil or several others (you can see those discussions earlier in this thread).
Maybe she meant this statement Cobra: what I am trying to do is understand what it is that people do not see within themselves and learn how to bring those issues to the light of day. I have a direct interest in this for my own sitch.
This means I am trying to identify an unknown, and a moving unknown at that. All the while I, and others here, must poke around while dodging deflections, defensiveness, anger, etc You sound angry and you don't seem to see it in yourself.
I told him I wanted to keep up the good thing we had going, I wanted to sleep in my own bed...we had a great weekend, let's just keep it going. Nope, he couldn't do it. He said no, you can't sleep in your bed. Then he brought up all the things I've done that 'prove' a lack of commitment. BS! I'm done with that crap. What would a more evolved person do in that situation, can you tell me? He is holding on, holding back, refusing to give. But yet, my advice is to keep pouring out my heart? Keep telling him my inner most secrets and fears and desires? I don't get it! I'm not into the whole 'turn the other cheek' thing.
You and I are not that different Heather. I'd feel the same way. This is where YOUR boundaries come in. I would need to see some give from him, some more of a commitment from him, in order to give back in such a "leap of faith" way. I'm not into that "turn the other cheek" mentality either. It needs to be a team effort, like you have stated, and he's not participating. I wish I had answers for you. All I can say is that my boundary would have been WAAAAY crossed by now, related to his refusal to let you sleep in the M bed and lots more. All I can see from your side of things that could help is the "softening" like I have mentioned. It seems like both of you are extremely stubborn and that can be a recipe for trouble. Try and stop reacting so much to his behaviors and "act as if" more. Too a point I guess. If he Still is not showing any signs of really working on the M, well, the ball is in your court to figure that out. Only you can determine how much time you are willing to give to the process.
Back on a lighter note My H and I like to make fun of Rachel Ray, my H can't stand her and likes to imitate her when she is on, lol. He loves Giadda though. Go figure. I don't have any all out favorites, but I like the shows you mentioned too. I go more on recipe than host.
Stigmata: OP who run roughshod over those with no boundaries will get angry and surprised when they run into one suddenly but it actually generates respect from them and that taking a second thought and thinking, hey, I'm doing something that triggered such a hard reaction from this otherwise docile person...maybe I've overstepped/crossed a line?
H doesn't see me as a docile person. Unfortunately, he seems to see me as a selfish person who, in general, operates for self first. Sometimes I don't know if he says that just to be mean or if that's how he really feels. He's used my willingness to change jobs for more money as an example in the past. Well, in that case, my 'self' also included me thinking about my family and what more money could do for *all* of us. He seems to feel that the outlook that I can do whatever I set my mind to in this world is a negative, selfish quality. The fact that I go to karate twice a week is the epitome of selfishness to him. To take that time away from my kids and my family.....he won't support it. That's what he says. I test for a higher belt rank this Wed and I've asked him to bring the kids to watch me test for an hour and he refused. So, I don't know what H feels or thinks when he runs into a boundary of mine...probably just that I'm trying to control him or I that I must think I can have everything my way. In general, most people feel that I'm stubborn, so I guess I must be. That's probably another quality he sees when he runs into a boundary of mine. Maybe he doesn't even give any thought to my boundaries. When I asked him about sex while we were away (a 'wanna get lucky' kind of proposition) he said "Wow....I haven't thought about that in a loooong time". Again, I don't trust a single word he says to me, so I don't know if he was telling me that only to make me feel like he could care less about my 'boundary' or if he really just accepted it that easily that he doesn't even think about it anymore.
Stigmata: What I will also say is, yes, the thought of a nice new condo and not having to check in with anyone or feel bad about anything sounds great and it is...
For a while that is.
But once you start to refocus on memories, fun weekends together, likes and dislikes, that "knowingg" so deeply your SO that you start to remember more of the good times than the bad...that new condo suddenly becomes a very lonely and painful place.
Believe me, I understand that. Those are the reasons I stay. Because I know there will be so many times that I question my decision to leave and everytime the kids are cranky, inside I will blame it on the separation. I just don't see how I could be there for them emotionally when I would be such a wreck.
Stigmata: Do you have a mutual male friend he trusts? Is there a guy who could just take him aside and say,
"Look, man, Heather told me about what she did. She feels like Sh!t about it and has been miserable for 2 years. You gotta stop punishing her man and deal with your anger and resentment over it because you're driving her away and killing her love for you. Come on, man, 2 years is long enough to punish someone for a mistake."
Only his Dad and his best friend who lives in Michigan. I doubt his Dad has or will say anything. They've pretty much tried to stay out of this, which has probably been the best thing for everybody. They've encouraged counseling and I've heard that his Dad feels 'the whole thing is stupid', but I don't really know what that means. I heard that from H's sister during the beginning of the crisis and I wasn't in the frame of mind to ask her to elaborate. H's best friend lives in MI and has gone through his own battle with alcohol and problems with his W. He seems to have come around and their problems, last I heard, were much better. I have a feeling he has said some things to H, but I don't know for sure.....H has told me he has mentioned religion more than once, which only pushes H away. H seems to have detached from him some. That could be my imagination though, I don't know. Seeing him when we go home doesn't seem to be the priority it once was. Aside from those two, there are no other males in H's life except his coworkers. My Dad and H have already burned their bridge. There is not a member of my family who cares much for H anymore. Some of that is surely do to my sharing our problems. Some of it is also due to H's actions in front of my family. He's let loose more than once in front of them. My oldest brother absolutely can't stand him and never has been able to. My youngest brother doesn't say much. My Dad always defended H to my oldest brother, but not anymore.
Stigmata: I've said before, I think H is so into his head that he can't find his way out. Yes, you HAVE to help him and not run away or be cold/indifferent to him. It's like he's trying to tell you what he wants you to do but can't since it will look as if he directed you to do xyz and it won't feel Heather-inspired to him.
He is so sure of everything he says to me. So sure that karate is selfish. So sure that divorce would ruin the kids and that it would be my fault for initiating it. So sure that he will not allow me to sleep in my bed. So sure of everything he does.....he's always been that way, even when he was dictating what I wore. He defended himself to the death. When he recognized it was wrong, I have no idea. I think it was only when he realized that I was changing and he either needed to change in order to remain with me or leave. He chose to change. But now without resentment. I just don't have what it takes to help him find his love for me again. I can't even find my own for him. We had an argument today that started off with me asking him to bring the kids to my belt test for karate. He went into how he can't support it because I'm gone for some x% of the time I have with my kids. I told him that I've always been extremely supportive of his desire to play volleyball and I even pointed out when I saw an adults beginner hockey league flyer. He said "And even though I'd like to, I'd never do it because it takes too much time away from the kids." I said "H people all over the place do things for their own personal enhancement, things that don't concern their kids." He said "And people all over the place aren't very good parents." I said "Eventually, we're going to be running just about every night of the week with the kids, but to take on a skill of my own is just too much to ask right?" He said "Exactly, we will be running a lot for the kids and it will be about *them*". I think he really believes that I put myself before my kids and that is his outlook. I said "I don't see the kids suffering because I go to karate twice a week". He said "Oh, really?" He didn't elaborate and I didn't ask. Before I knew it, his voice was raising higher and higher (we were in his truck and the kids were in the backseat) and I asked him to stop, to quiet down and he wouldn't. He accused me of attacking him and then deeming the conversation over when he finally reacts I am completely miffed about why he started yelling and his refusal to stop.....I muttered under my breath "You shut your mouth" and S5 heard me. He felt the need to tell me how not nice that was. Whenever we fight in front of the kids, S5 always sees me as the bad guy. What does that mean? Does that mean that I *am* being the bad guy? That my voice is meaner than I think? That my words are more cutting than I thought? Or that S5 sees himself as being on Daddy's 'team'? H acted like I was being holier than thou for wanting to stop the argument in front of the kids. I swear I had no idea that it would turn into what it did and I was *not* trying to provoke a fight. At one point I said "H, not in front of them" and he said "Oh, come ON!" like I was being so ridiculous. I don't know what to make of those reactions, I'm not sure why he wouldn't stop. I doubt his motives on everything....maybe it was in fact so that S5 would take his side against me. I wanted to get out, walk away, I had such an urge to jump out of the truck, I cannot even explain it. I said something to that effect and he said "Please do!" At one point I tried to turn the radio up to make him stop and he actually pushed me out of the way and refused to let me touch the stereo. The whole thing was crazy and very much a regression into the past for us. Just great.
We are constantly at odds, the only thing that would ever bring any measure of peace is just to give him what he f*ing wants. I know I'm not *supposed* to be measuring my self worth against what my H thinks of me, but come on, his feelings toward me and my choices speak volumes. And it hurts. And it really, really wears on me. And it leaves me wondering if I should't be better, if maybe he's right, maybe I should quit. The kids are only young once right? I make myself crazy. And the last thing I want to do is find my love for him and 'help' him do the same.
Stigmata: But don't freeze him out, it will make it worse. Hate his actions don't hate him.. It's his pain talking.
How do I really know it's his pain talking? It seems to me that the things he says to me, he damn well means. He seems awfully sure of himself and he repeats the same things over and over.
One of the things that I've been happy has remained consistently better is his attitude toward me and the kids, S5 in particular. My relationship with S5 in particular has been kind of rough. But things have been so much better and there has been a calm in me where the kids are concerned. H has been supportive of my R with S5 and it has helped so much and I've been very happy about it. But the last few days I feel that slipping away. H and S5 had a 'boys night out' Thursday night and I swear, since then, S5 has not wanted much to do with me. On boys' night out, they go out and do whatever S5 wants. They go wherever he wants, plays whatever he wants, they eat whatever he wants. He comes home feeling like Daddy is the greatest thing ever. The thing is, they already spend so much time together, that boys night out is really sort of unnecessary. H says they need it because S5 needs one-on-one time alone with him, without D3. If it were just that S5 preferred Daddy for a little while after boys night out, I could try to tell myself that kids just go back and forth sometimes with their preferences, etc. But I feel like S5 disrespectful as well, like he won't listen to me, instead he waits for H to either back me up or disagree with me. I tell myself that maybe I'm being to overly sensitive and it's probably my imagination that boys' night out had anything to do with it....lately D3 has been preferring Daddy too and she didn't even go on boys night out. Neither child has been very affectionate with me and S5 periodically says things about how he loves Daddy the best or something. Somehow, I just feel like H has so much control over them, and that has got to be my imagination. I've got to be blaming H unfairly for that because nobody has that much control over other people. They're just being kids for crying out loud. Right now, I do feel like I'm crazy.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Just a quick comment. Has your C said anything to you about parentalizing your H? Mine made a big deal out of this last week. If you recall, I'm the fixer in our R and you'd think if anyone is the parent here, it'd be me, but she pointed out that I respond to my XH as a child would to a parent when he disapproves of me. If I set a boundary he doesn't respect, or don't do what he wants, or he disagrees with me in general, I respond by apologizing, feeling guilty and changing. The discussion came about when I was explaining that I'm having a hard time with distancing from him. Even to the point that I let him convince me to "leave the door open" if he changes in the future. She asked why I'd do that if it's not what I want, and I said "because he won't accept me closing the door, and he'll be upset, we'll argue, and he'll accuse me of being selfish, unforgiving and bitter" She said that I parentalize him by reacting to his disapproval and his opinion of what I'm doing with my life. She's right, and just hearing that was an eye opener to me. I've always been very sensitive to his opinion of me and I have reacted like a girl whose Daddy says she's misbehaving. But now, I'm a woman and I can make my own decisions. I.e., who cares if he thinks it's stupid that I want to take dance classes and accuses me of taking off on an evening I could be with the kids. It's not his decision. I"m their Mother and I'm my own person. It was such a freeing thing to realize that I put him in that position of authority when I was young, but now I don't need him to be there anymore. I can be free to make my decisions and if he doesn't agree, then it's just an opinion.
Thought that might help, although you seem to be moving past giving him that power in your life.
I felt "second rate" to XW in the kids' eyes several times. It's not true, though. Keep showing your kids that you love them, no matter what H does or doesn't do. It'll get through to them, even if they're afraid to lose his love by admitting/demonstrating love for you.
His actions will breed uncertainty in them. You can just keep being consistently loving, not bad mouthing him. The kids will notice, in time.
Thanks,
Joe
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
First, with regard to S5 - 5yo is a developmental stage where kids usually identify with the same sex parent. I wouldn't worry about it too much but I would make sure there is also one-on-one time for you and S5.
I am really sorry about karate. I used to take Tae Kwan Do and I know how important testing and promotion ceremonies are. I found martial arts to be good for me as a person - body and soul and I would fight for those two nights/week too.
Sheila: Has your C said anything to you about parentalizing your H?
No, not so far. I haven't been back to see our counselor in a while. I made an appt today though. I asked H to consider going back to MC and he said he said he needed time to think about it. I gave him the weekend and asked him again this morning, at which point he said no. He said it didn't help him, it didn't help the M, I was less committed now than I have ever been and he feels strongly about what he said before, that I need to show a higher level of commitment before he would ever go back. So, I just said ok, that I was going to continue to go and he could choose to come or not and that I didn't know what else to say. When he said I was less committed than ever I said it's because I am fed up not because of couseling. I sort of agreed then that I was less committed than ever, although I just meant if it seems that way, it's because I am fed up.
I'm hoping that the C will have some insight for me, as she is the only person who has ever witnessed the true dynamics between H and I.
I have not seen any level of commitment from him either. He is in the house and hasn't left, but the same can be said for me. He expects me to be able to give him what he cannot give to me. Over on Cobra's thread, Honeypot asked Cobra why he was pushing so hard for a commitment and I swear I wanted to print that and give it to H. I truly cannot understand why we can't just commit to trying....*both* of us trying. Of all the things we have to work on, being in my own bed is my main concern. I struggle with this on a daily basis. H says the 'power' I see him trying to maintain is all in my head and if by now, I can't see that this isn't a power trip for him then it is hopeless. Ok, so who *admits* they are on a power trip?! If it's not a power trip, then prove it. *YOU* go sleep somewhere else. But he won't. He feels that because I cheated, it's up to me to fix it. I admit that, theoretically, that doesn't seem so outrageous. But we didn't have a perfect M before my A and it wasn't all my fault. But yet, I'm supposed to have this magic wand whereby I can transform myself into whatever it is that he needs me to be. I can't do that anymore than he can.
Sheila: But now, I'm a woman and I can make my own decisions. I.e., who cares if he thinks it's stupid that I want to take dance classes and accuses me of taking off on an evening I could be with the kids. It's not his decision. I"m their Mother and I'm my own person.
This is the place I was in right before I went into this slump. I'm struggling for a couple different reasons, but one of my best friends is starting to venture into D (there is OM) and it is really affecting me. Based on my conversation with H this morning, he views me being in that place as 'less committed than I've ever been' which I guess is not surprising. But you can see where doing what is best for me is clearly not doing much good for my M.
Joe: Keep showing your kids that you love them, no matter what H does or doesn't do.
You're very right. I realized that part of my problem is that when H and I aren't getting along, I withdraw and he gets very clingy with the kids. So, it is two extremes, but it doesn't mean anything long term. It makes a bad situation worse though when I feel like I'm on the outside looking in. That is my problem and I need to take care of it. I know this. My feelings were getting the best of me yesterday. Thanks!
Joe: His actions will breed uncertainty in them. You can just keep being consistently loving, not bad mouthing him. The kids will notice, in time.
Actually, it is H that seems to be able to be consistently involved with the kids. I want/need time with my partner, he doesn't. In a conversation not too long ago, I told H that when he and I are getting along poorly, my mothering abilities are affected. He said 'You can't just put it aside and get joy from being with the kids'? He was surprised to learn that I usually can't. So, the kids see me argue/fight with their Dad, I tend to withdraw whereas Daddy gets even more involved with them than usual (which is pretty hard to beat as it is). I suppose this would have a negative effect on them. H is just so dam smothering toward them sometimes....he gets on my nerves. Sometimes I just want to scream "Can you not just let them be for 5 minutes???"
Karen: First, with regard to S5 - 5yo is a developmental stage where kids usually identify with the same sex parent. I wouldn't worry about it too much but I would make sure there is also one-on-one time for you and S5.
I should probably push for this. H would see it in a negative light. If history tells me anything, S5 won't want to go anyway, he'll want to stay with H. Unless H encourages it (which he won't, particularly if we're not in a 'good spell'), then I will probably rock the boat and tick H off for nothing.
Karen: I am really sorry about karate. I used to take Tae Kwan Do and I know how important testing and promotion ceremonies are.
Thanks.
Karen:I found martial arts to be good for me as a person - body and soul and I would fight for those two nights/week too.
Thanks again. I really do love going. And although H says he would never do it, he makes himself out to be the 'better person' for that, but the truth is, he's never done anything socially in the eleven years we've been here. A couple coworker parties in eleven years sums it up. And S5 is only, you guess it, 5 years old. So, WTH happened during the other six ears? I'll tell you-his not doing anything outside of the kids has more to do with himself than it does with our kids. So, he can be self righteous if he wants to, but I've been around too long for him to be able to fool me with his BS.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
