Am I Creating a SSM Part IV

[LustForLife]

My point is that you should soften your positions and your feeling of righteousness.

putting you faith in your H and making yourself vulnerable, revealing to him all your true needs and desires, should be possible. I know it won’t be easy, but you need to open yourself to this eventuality if you are ever going to get your marriage back.


Just wanted to say I agree with Cobra on these statements Heather.
Your "shields" are so obvious from your posts. I'm sure your H is fully aware of them too.
I think you should work on "softening" a little and letting your H in more. He's just mirroring what you are presenting to him it seems like.


Also, just wanted to say I love Food Network too!!

[heatherg]

What is it in your FOO that makes you both so “fiercely competitive and independent?”

There are probably lots of things, the kind of marriage my parents had, their drinking issues, the town we lived in. We both knew we wanted better for our lives. More than that though, I think that the R H and I had when we first got together is why I would be so independent now. I feel like I was taken advantage of by somebody who was supposed to care about me. I know what we had wasn't love and it only makes me doubt everything we've ever had. The fact that H can't acknowledge this only solidifies my fear that he would go straight back to that kind of R if only I would let it happen. Those are probably the days he felt most 'loved' by me and 'coincidentally', they are the days I was most afraid of him and clueless about myself. I can't trust his motives.....I don't think H and share the same views about what a healthy R is. Especially now, because he can so easily use my A now to justify the same BS views he's always had. My A changes a lot of things, but it doesn't take away all the progress I've made with my free will since I was 17.

My wife is EXACTLY like this and likes to think of herself as a rebel or warrior against a male dominated and oppressive society, protecting the rights of women, kids, the weak, blah, blah, blah….

I can't tell if you're just wishing to share some of your experience here or if you are saying that I am a 'crusader'. I don't rally for causes and I don't have stated principles or generalized beliefs that guide my behavior. The girl next door can take care of herself unless she tells me otherwise or I witness an atrocity of some sort. Other than that, I'm just concerned about me...I'm not willing to let H break my spirit again.

Maybe it is with some of that, but underneath all of this is a real live FOO issue needing resolution.

I think you're exactly right, only it's not my FOO. It's my very young history with H. I need some closure, some acknowledgement, some form of recognition from him. Not so I can see him repent, but that so I know he recognizes what he did to me. If he doesn't recognize it, how can I trust him to never try to take me back there? I can't.

Since you two are opposite sides of the same coin, you might take a look at how you mirror and thus exacerbate his behavior.

It seems like living my life as I see fit exacerbates his behavior. Taking karate, accepting a business dinner invitiation. I've talked about these things several times...these are the things that bother him. I'm not willing to let him decide everything I do in my life, so it looks like I will either continue exacerbating his behavior or he will recognize my free will for what it is and not as a demonstration against him or a sign of my lack of commitment.

All authority is perceived. What other kind is there?

I meant perceived by the person who's trying to be authoritative. One should not have to resort to belittling, condescension or other power plays in order to be get the recognition they feel is warranted. If you don't get the recognition you think you deserve, then apparently you don't have as much authority with the person as you thought you did.

When you say you do not believe, you are taking the exact same position as someone who does believe.

Our reasons are different for choosing to believe vs not believe. I don't like to get into lengthy discussions on this either way. Like you said, it can't be proven. Just like my view on my R with H, I take the same view here. I'll try my hardest to be a good person. If it's not good enough, well I guess I'll just have to live with the consequences.

[heatherg]

Your "shields" are so obvious from your posts. I'm sure your H is fully aware of them too.

That's fine. I'm not on an undercover mission, kwim?

He's just mirroring what you are presenting to him it seems like.

Well, it's a little more than that, but I see your point. We both react to one another, but I think I've gotten rid of most of the 'act before you think' reactions under control. Now, it's just more of a my move, his move type of dynamic. I told him I wanted to keep up the good thing we had going, I wanted to sleep in my own bed...we had a great weekend, let's just keep it going. Nope, he couldn't do it. He said no, you can't sleep in your bed. Then he brought up all the things I've done that 'prove' a lack of commitment. BS! I'm done with that crap. What would a more evolved person do in that situation, can you tell me? He is holding on, holding back, refusing to give. But yet, my advice is to keep pouring out my heart? Keep telling him my inner most secrets and fears and desires? I don't get it! I'm not into the whole 'turn the other cheek' thing.

I think you should work on "softening" a little

I will try. I do need to soften. I am hurt. I am sad. This last blow really hit me. Because I am really feeling like there isn't anything I can do. All the advice I get is helping me to be better for me, but it's not going to help H see my decision to do something that he feels I shouldn't as anything other than a lack of commitment. These are his issues and there isn't anything I can do about them. I am losing hope. I feel like I just need to 'give up' for a while, maybe forever, but at least for a while. Just accept things as they are and do my best not to think about it. But that doesn't mean I have to be cold and distant. I will try to soften.

Also, just wanted to say I love Food Network too!!

Sandra Lee Semi-Homemade is my favorite, but I love all of them! Paula Dean is a cool lady too.

[Cobra]

Heather,

I think a lot of my comments are slipping through your fingers….

More than that though, I think that the R H and I had when we first got together is why I would be so independent now. I feel like I was taken advantage of by somebody who was supposed to care about me.

Did your H have a relationship with your sister? Did he somehow manage to affect her too so that you both have this “fiercely competitive and independent” spirit? That seems unlikely, so I think the common link probably predates your H.

I know what we had wasn't love and it only makes me doubt everything we've ever had. The fact that H can't acknowledge this only solidifies my fear that he would go straight back to that kind of R if only I would let it happen.

I can understand this fear, but what does it have to do with your H? The only way you can go back to “that kind of R” is if you let it. If you fear this happening, then you fear yourself. And this is not dependent on whether he acknowledges anything. Can you see how your statement sidesteps your responsibility?

I can't trust his motives.....I don't think H and share the same views about what a healthy R is.

This may be true at this point in time, but your idea of what a healthy R should be is not the same as what it was a month ago. Why can’t your H change his ideas too? This is fatalistic thinking… You don’t have to believe he will change, just don’t commit yourself to the idea that he won’t.

I can't tell if you're just wishing to share some of your experience here or if you are saying that I am a 'crusader'.

I mentioned my wife as an example to you. I do think you are a “crusader” of sorts, not for the cause of others, but for the cause of your own esteem, your own ego. Didn’t you say your ego was one of your biggest obstacles (not your sense of shame that I was talking about at the time)?

Other than that, I'm just concerned about me...I'm not willing to let H break my spirit again.

Yes, but you keep coming back to these types of comments. Are you trying to convince me or you? I don’t matter, but you do. You should not have to convince yourself that you are strong and confident (which creates those thoughts that you are not). Just know that you are strong and confident, as Lil prescribes in her recent messages.

I think you're exactly right, only it's not my FOO. It's my very young history with H. I need some closure, some acknowledgement, some form of recognition from him. Not so I can see him repent, but that so I know he recognizes what he did to me. If he doesn't recognize it, how can I trust him to never try to take me back there? I can't.

I think you need to keep reading Schnarch, if you haven’t done so. Your statement implies that you need your H to become a certain way, so that (in the hugging till relaxed analogy) you will have a trusting partner on whom you can lean. I thought the purpose was not to lean on anyone, rather to balance on your own two feet.

You also seem to have a thread of vengeance running in your comments. I know you have a strong sense of justice, and that he has done you wrong and so must pay. Any injustice can set your blood to boil, it triggers the “crusader” or “warrior chick” in you. But understand that every time you feel that anger, you are really reacting to something from your FOO. Sure, your H could be responsible for setting this response in you, but more likely were your parents.

Why don’t you take the time to elaborate a little on your family. What kind of marriage did your parents have? Was your dad the drinker, shouting and yelling with mom trying to smooth things over and keep up appearances? Was there ever a happy time in your childhood or do you generally have dark memories of your youth?

It seems like living my life as I see fit exacerbates his behavior. Taking karate, accepting a business dinner invitiation.

No, I don’t think any of this exacerbates his behavior, in and of itself. It is how you go about doing these things that threatens him. There are secure happy couples in which each person does a lot more independent stuff than what you describe without a hint of jealousy or insecurity. All the reinforcing and affirmation that goes on during other times allows the spouse to not worry. You and your H are not doing this. There is no build-up in the love bank so a small thing like attending TKD is a threat.

Your H is constantly in the “red zone” so trying to appease him when you GAL is fruitless. He needs to feel secure beforehand, before he enters the “red zone.” Softening yourself will help. Not getting angry and thinking about revenge or the need for his acknowledgement will help.

I've talked about these things several times...these are the things that bother him.

No, what bothers him is fear of having lost you. Those “things” are only confirmations in his mind that this is so. By what you have said on this board, I think he has the right impression. In regard to your commitment, I think he has a very accurate view of you.

I'm not willing to let him decide everything I do in my life, so it looks like I will either continue exacerbating his behavior or he will recognize my free will for what it is and not as a demonstration against him or a sign of my lack of commitment.

I agree with this logic…. once you two are healthy and secure enough to tolerate it. For now, it is only escalation to him. Everyone here has been saying to re-enmesh. Do this on a temporary basis for the sole purpose of defuse his anger and letting him lower his shields. For sake of argument, if you were to let him “control” you, just what terrible thing do you think he would do?

I meant perceived by the person who's trying to be authoritative.

This is irrelevant. Do you pay attention to some looney who is trying to convince you to prepare for the coming of aliens or something? Do you pay attention to someone who is trying to convince you that you are really a male?

One should not have to resort to belittling, condescension or other power plays in order to be get the recognition they feel is warranted. If you don't get the recognition you think you deserve, then apparently you don't have as much authority with the person as you thought you did.

True. So ignore them. Why do they make you mad?

Our reasons are different for choosing to believe vs not believe. I don't like to get into lengthy discussions on this either way.

I agree, no need to get into a religious discussion, but the leap of faith is critically important to relationships. If you do not have the ability to trust your H, he will know it and it will be a barrier to your marriage. You’re not quite there yet, so this may be premature, as long as you are not telegraphing you negativity.

Just like my view on my R with H, I take the same view here. I'll try my hardest to be a good person. If it's not good enough, well I guess I'll just have to live with the consequences.

This statement is in the same spirit as your above statement – it is sidestepping your responsibility and assuming a martyr-like position. Your H does this enough for the both of you. Try to stay out of it.

Maybe it would help if you thought of your H as a mentally sick person (which he is) and is actually a victim of his FOO (as you are). Think of him as someone who is shell-shocked, suffering from post traumatic stress disorder, or something like this. He is damaged goods and really deserves sympathy. Would that you help see him in a different light and allow you to better hover above the chessboard?

Again, I’d like to suggest discussing your FOO more. I really think there is a lot holding you back there. Sooooo much repressed anger, not just toward your H but toward life in general.

[heatherg]

Did your H have a relationship with your sister? Did he somehow manage to affect her too so that you both have this “fiercely competitive and independent” spirit? That seems unlikely, so I think the common link probably predates your H.

I believe I already said that there were probably some things at home that contributed to our feelings of independence. But, if it were just that and I came into my teenage years with that attitude already, it doesn't seem likely that I would have been the type of person that would have allowed someone else to dictate what I wore and where I went. I did hear you, your comments didn't slip through my fingers. I addressed a little bit of my FOO and why my sister and I might share similar views. But I take my views farther than my FOO because I know what makes me cringe the most and it is the early years with H.

The only way you can go back to “that kind of R” is if you let it.

Exactly! Wouldn't that explain why I refuse to take his opinions on the matters we've discussed? Appeasing H simply for the betterment of my M is not the way I want to live my life because what happens later? These issues have to be tackled eventually and I don't want to get into a situation where I make not going out with friends or not going to karate the norm because it 'bothers' him.

If you fear this happening, then you fear yourself. And this is not dependent on whether he acknowledges anything. Can you see how your statement sidesteps your responsibility?

I disagree. Let's say I take your 'leap of faith' and just start folding on things, start taking the approach of 'which is better xyz or fixing my M' so that things that he has a problem with I give up to 'prove' myself. What if he never lets up? What if this is his idea of a good M? This is not fearing myself Cobra, this is fearing that he and I are not on the same path and no, I don't see where it sidesteps my responsibility.

I do think you are a “crusader” of sorts, not for the cause of others, but for the cause of your own esteem, your own ego.

Pleasant, thanks.

you keep coming back to these types of comments. Are you trying to convince me or you? I don’t matter, but you do. You should not have to convince yourself that you are strong and confident (which creates those thoughts that you are not). Just know that you are strong and confident, as Lil prescribes in her recent messages.

I feel like every day in this M is a test of how strong I am. I feel like ultimtely H would love to see me suffer as much as humanly possible for what I did. I feel like I live with someone I need to protect myself from. It is difficult to convey that in a forum such as this.

I think you need to keep reading Schnarch, if you haven’t done so. Your statement implies that you need your H to become a certain way, so that (in the hugging till relaxed analogy) you will have a trusting partner on whom you can lean.

I read it already. My statement was that I need H to behave a certain way that would indicate he is ready to put the swords down. I've approachd with a white flag and he turned me down. This has been the case over and over again.
One person can only do so much in a R. We have been to MC and even the MC could see that H wasn't in a position to move forward and would not tell her what it would take to get there. When I called her to tell her that H told me he would not return until he saw a level of commitment from me, her words were 'he hasn't shown much commitment either...'. I don't want to place blame or fault, it just is what it is. I can improve myself, but ultimately if I try to take full responsibility for making this work, if I believe that my own behavior really is to blame and if I can just change it this way or that, then everything will be all better....I will be placing unfair burden on myself. This is not all within my capability to fix.

I will finish my post later.

Thanks

[SweetRedd]

I feel like every day in this M is a test of how strong I am. I feel like ultimtely H would love to see me suffer as much as humanly possible for what I did. I feel like I live with someone I need to protect myself from. It is difficult to convey that in a forum such as this.

Heather, I just want to let you know that I understand this as much as I can from here. I understand too how you've built up defense mechanisms and changed yourself so that you can make sure that you don't go back to the early years with your H. You can't trust him to not go to a place that you can't survive, so you have to be sure that you won't let that happen to yourself. You go girl I've seen so many positive changes in you. I don't see you trying to convince anyone that you are strong enough, but I can see how you'd want to stand up and say "I deserve this. I have rights in this R. I'm a strong, confident woman that doesnt need my H to tell me how to live a life I find fulfilling" I understand why you are standing on that point. It's important to you. It's important that you can "trust yourself" and KNOW that you're not going back to that dark, ugly place with him just to pacify him and stay in the M.

I get it sister, and I'm proud of you. Having taken the journey from an alcoholic parent and childhood that I spent pleasing everyone and learning how to be worthy, I get that we sometimes come into a M willing to do anything for the love we need. I did that. Our sitches are diff, but I understand chasing your tail and changing to keep the M together and at the end looking in the mirror, seeing a stranger, and knowing all the changes destroyed me and didnt build a happy M. Reclaiming that sense of self and strength is amazing. I hope that's where you are writing from. Stating clearly that you want the R to work, but will not lose yourself again. Being willing to change in the right ways if your partner is also willing to commit towards the same goal.

I'd say this is as healthy as you've sounded since I've been reading your posts. That is wonderful.

Sheila

[Cobra]

Heather,

I know you have more to post, but while I’ve got a little time, I’ll reply to what you’ve said so far…

But, if it were just that and I came into my teenage years with that attitude already, it doesn't seem likely that I would have been the type of person that would have allowed someone else to dictate what I wore and where I went.

I’m not sure this is necessarily true… I think those who are most confident and secure are those who put up the least show of being “fiercely competitive and independent.” Those who act this way are actually the least so. I am wondering if your strength isn’t really your way of compensating (and probably overcompensating) for what you subconsciously perceive to be weakness or fear.

But I take my views farther than my FOO because I know what makes me cringe the most and it is the early years with H.

I’m not sure the pain of your early years is the answer. Who you were at the time, how you were raised, the role models you emulated, all had an impact on your initial attraction to your H. After all, other girls without your background didn’t end up with him, you did. I still think your issues originated pre-H.

You are aware of the pain he put your through, whatever that was. Recognizing how dysfunctional he may have been, you can choose to adjust in a more healthy fashion. But if you are not aware that you were damaged in some other way, how do you know you even have an issue to work on? All you have to make this judgment is your view of how relationships should be. That view was set by the way you were raised. You followed your role models, your parents. Remember you said:

You wanna know one of the most profound things *I* learned on these boards? That whatever I think is right for me is right. I can't even remember who said it or what context it was said. People probably even tried to tell me that several times before I actually *heard* it. But when I heard it, I can remember thinking 'holy cow! seriously? is that how people really work? that's not considered selfish?'

Who taught you to think that way, that you didn’t deserve to think for yourself? Was that your H or was it your father? Until you came to this board, I doubt you would have been able to identify that as an issue. So what else do you think is normal behavior by your family’s standards that you are not even aware of?

My A changes a lot of things, but it doesn't take away all the progress I've made with my free will since I was 17.

This is admirable of you. But who was your model on how to develop your free will from the age of 17, your H? If so, then is it possible that you may have adopted some poor coping mechanisms from him? Just keep an open mind.

The only way you can go back to “that kind of R” is if you let it.

Exactly! Wouldn't that explain why I refuse to take his opinions on the matters we've discussed?

This is too much black and white thinking. I still think your animosity has a lot to do with driving this. Like Blackfoot tried to impress on you, this thinking only polarizes you two. There are plenty of ways to avoid getting back into your old R without opposing your H on all his opinions. In fact, you can validate and acknowledge everything he says, but you don’t have to do it. Your problem is not so much what you do but how you do it, how you say it, how you show it. This is what he is reading.

If you fear this happening, then you fear yourself. And this is not dependent on whether he acknowledges anything. Can you see how your statement sidesteps your responsibility?

I disagree. Let's say I take your 'leap of faith' and just start folding on things, start taking the approach of 'which is better xyz or fixing my M' so that things that he has a problem with I give up to 'prove' myself. What if he never lets up? What if this is his idea of a good M? This is not fearing myself Cobra, this is fearing that he and I are not on the same path and no, I don't see where it sidesteps my responsibility.

I think there is a difference between what I mean by taking a leap of faith and what you think that means. I do not think you need to give up anything. You should hold to your values, boundaries, activities, etc. But I do think you need to stop being so pessimistic. You pre-judge him on everything before he does it. My wife did the same thing too.

She had a list of complaints about me, things she wanted me to change. When I changed, she said she didn’t trust the changes, that I might be doing so only to trick or manipulate her. So I was blamed for not changing, and then I was blamed for changing. How could I get out from under that? To make matters worse, as she held to her line and found little faults on what I had done, things that might bring doubt into her mind about my sincerity, she focused on those things and neglected the positive changes I was trying to do.

I see now this was all her way of keeping me off balance so she could maintain control. It also kept her from having to relinquish her anger (which would also lessen her control) and warm up to me, which meant opening herself to intimacy and vulnerability. So instead, she kept pounding on the negative. Guess what? It worked. Eventually I would get fed up and blow up. Then she could say that her suspicions were right and I was insincere and not to be trusted. It’s all a game. You are both playing this too.

For me, I decided one way to break this cycle was to take the leap of faith that her reactions were not in malice, that she did not have evil intentions and I would have to put my faith in her, make myself vulnerable, to the possibility that she was evil and did intend to get divorced. I saw her begin to do the same thing to (I think with some nudging from the counselor), and she learned that the world did not come to and end if she gave up control over some particular issue.

I feel like every day in this M is a test of how strong I am. I feel like ultimtely H would love to see me suffer as much as humanly possible for what I did. I feel like I live with someone I need to protect myself from. It is difficult to convey that in a forum such as this.

Do you see how this way of thinking is what YOU can change to break the cycle. It does not require anything of him, and very little of you. All you have to do is have a little faith, and hold on to yourself when you are unsure and just ride things out. If he wanted to divorce you, he would have by now.

My statement was that I need H to behave a certain way that would indicate he is ready to put the swords down. I've approachd with a white flag and he turned me down. This has been the case over and over again.

Don’t expect him to put the swords down any more than you should expect him to ride in your truck. He should not use them and you should not tolerate his doing so, but you can’t make him put them away. Don’t hold onto that, it will only frustrate you.

We have been to MC and even the MC could see that H wasn't in a position to move forward and would not tell her what it would take to get there. When I called her to tell her that H told me he would not return until he saw a level of commitment from me, her words were 'he hasn't shown much commitment either...'.

So just keep going to the MC. Eventually he may get it. But if you don’t go, I pretty sure he won’t get it. He’s got a lot more anger inside that needs processing before he will open up to hearing anything. Even though you may not see progress, he is slowly processing his nager by talking to the MC. You both should keep going.

I don't want to place blame or fault, it just is what it is. I can improve myself, but ultimately if I try to take full responsibility for making this work, if I believe that my own behavior really is to blame and if I can just change it this way or that, then everything will be all better....I will be placing unfair burden on myself. This is not all within my capability to fix.

I don’t know why you say this. 50% of the blame is yours accept that and no more. The rest is his.

[Burgbud]

(Cobra)Sometimes I think there is little more that can be done than to lay the truth in hard hitting words. I know that is what ticks off Burgbud,...

You know very little about what ticks me off, unless "hard hitting" is the same to you as "condescending", "patronizing" or "insulting". To me, "hard hitting" is much different as I've stated several times now.


When you say you do not believe, you are taking the exact same position as someone who does believe. You have taken the leap of faith and made a conscious decision to not believe, just as other make a decision to believe.

As a Believer I can assure you that's not the case. A leap of faith is required to believe in something without proof of its existence. Not to believe in something whose existence isn't proven requires no such leap.


It is up to the communicator to get the message across.

Not true. Communication requires active participation by both parties.


It is very difficult for the listener to infer a cryptic message. Perhaps Burgbud thinks this approach is better, but I have found myself wasting a lot of time with that method, both as sender and receiver.

I'd be very interested to learn how you formulated the opinion that I'm in favor of cryptic communication. It seems to me you find yourself wasting a lot of time constructing and destroying straw men.

For your benefit Cobra, I will state again the approach to communication I prefer. If you have issues with what follows I'd be happy to discuss them with you. If you prefer to misrepresent my position and you have issues with whatever beliefs you mistakenly ascribe to me, I'll leave you to it.

I think communication should be direct and unadorned by sarcasm, insult or hyperbole. I think indirect communication is patronizing and rarely has a place among virtual strangers. I think communication that is plain and direct can be hard hitting and is often the *most* hard hitting.

Indirect communication is what's cryptic. This web page outlines why I believe that. Among other things, it points out five effects of indirect communication:

• Guesswork
• Inaccuracy
• Inference of motives
• Game playing behavior
• Defensiveness

[Stigmata]

Hey Heather--

I wanted to just follow up with your response while sneaking in a comment or two to augment some of the issues cobra is revealing through your discourse with him...

I think you might want to now consider (if you haven't already from your old threads on the other forum) turning all of the reins over to H. You give up.
You haven't managed to earn his trust so please, H, pull back the curtain.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. Giving up and living in the same house instead of giving up and moving out. I'll make the changes to the room, I've already
indicated that if we remodel the house, I intend to take the bedroom upstairs. What do you think about the books I read? If he can see that I am still
reading books titled 'Loving Fearlessly" then he will know I haven't given up. If he sees me typing on this BB, he will know I haven't given up. I need
to do that stuff in private don't I?

- First. i'm glad to see moving out has for now been taken off the table. You see? This is a direct hit in H's defensive walls--straight to his panic button as it is his biggest fear. Not helpful and all forward progress will collapse and send you to square one again if you threaten to leave (or even think it actually). Your FOO tells me where this comes from.

You said you were taken away from friends etc. when you moved with your dysfunctional family as a kid and you sort of found ways to be alone and entertain yourself in isolation--detaching yourself even from your alcoholic parent(s?) So detaching from an alcoholic H won't be quite the challenge that it might be for OP with a so-called "normal" FOO I'm guessing.

And just to be clear, I don't think you should "give up" and stay in the house...more like stop going down fromage-less Chunnels and stay in the house.

I'll make the changes to the room, I've already
indicated that if we remodel the house, I intend to take the bedroom upstairs.

-- You should do whatever you choose to do with the room. Especially if you are letting H dictate that area for you. If you want to call it "my bedroom" call it that without being nasty...just in the tone that you are moving on with your life and not waiting around for H's approval as to your own personal space. We all need some kind of personal space in Rs and if this space cannot be shared then we must have 2. This is separating your boundary from his. It's a good place to start as boundaries do not have to become confrontational. The goal is to eventually move your boundary out to your original master bedroom and sleeping with your H. But to me this is a big goal that needs to be reached one step at a time as you deal with an injured H.

...if we remodel the house...

- Remember how much calmer and pleasant H was when you started talking about blueprints and plans for the remodel? Remember his reactions to you threatening to leave, whether permanently or to the hotel? What if you replaced "if" with "when" in front of him? Hmmm, seems to me like making an large investment to improve your "nest" together is a pretty big neon sign of commitment from you. Or at least excitedly talking about it if you're not quite at that point of...well...umm...commitment. Oh wow I think that says a lot if that doubtful feeling is true. (yes, I know. Hard to feel excited right now but trust me this kind of attitude is a real negativity killer and may even be contagious. Additionallly, I would suggest a lot of "we"s and "our"s.

...I intend to take the bedroom upstairs.

- Finishing off that sentence. What's this? I don't get it. Now you sound like a roommate from "The Real World" when they first arrive at the new house/apt. Not "our" bedroom? Why are you already relegating yourself to your own separate room in your future bedroom that doesn't even exist as of yet? Maybe I'm confused and you want this as the master bedroom with you both occupying.

What do you think about the books I read? If he can see that I am still reading books titled 'Loving Fearlessly" then he will know I haven't given up. If he sees me typing on this BB, he will know I haven't given up. I need to do that stuff in private don't I?

- Hm. Well I'd say you should keep reading and typing if it's helping *you*--regardless of whether you think H is noticing or not. Yeah it would be nice if he could see these things if they happened to be sitting around etc. and link them himself to your "commitment" but I wouldn't put much stock in assigning too much hope to it.

I think H wants to see actions. First, by not engaging him in sword fighting. He will win every time because from his past actions/responses/demands he has determined that he WILL win every time you go against him; that's why you are doing so well to hold your tongue and anger. He is cocked and loaded for bear to see if you'll escalate on him so he can put you in your place.

Deflecting his anger by choosing not to engage while maintaining a positive frame of mind is bypassing straight around his full on frontal walls of hair-trigger reaction-fed anger.

This is not to say ignore him or be blissfully patronizing--no no no that will only make him angrier that you are trying to evade his twisted view of accountability--but rather to set "pleasant" but very firm boundaries as to what treatment you will or will not accept from him...ie, something like my earlier suggestions to de-fuse his tongue which shows that you are not a person who accepts second-class treatment from anyone--no matter who that person might be, your H or The Pope himself, kwis?

Don't think black or white, angry retaliatory insult shouting vs. turning the other cheek. Both are signs of insecurity/low self value whereas being firm/stern while keeping your cool sends a very powerful message about being treated with respect.

The next positive action approach you might want to consider is to try and blur the line more in terms of you vs. H. Do you talk of future plans for anything? The house remodel is a nice blurring as long as you don't start choosing "your room" etc. Can you get H out of the house more with the kids and do some fun summer things together? Do you compliment him without provocation on anything? His work/talent, looks, humor etc. just because you appreciate these things in him? I'm getting the vibe, Heather, that lately even thinking these thoughts makes you cringe. (believe me, I understand why)

If these thoughts make you feel disgust...don't bet that his subconscious isn't picking up on it and fueling his insecurity, kiddo. There I said it again to give you that nice fraternal feeling as you think about all of this temporary unpleasantness.

He's in a thick fog, Heather. But he's reading that book and I think that's a good sign. He's gonna be a lot slower to progress than you...the A, alcohol desires cropping up...lots of stuff to handle and complicate things while he inches towards the realization that, yes, it's okay for 2 individuals to have identities that are not so completely fused together into one smothering ball of festering mutual resentment.

I'll get to the cobra stuff in the next post...maybe...

-Stigmata-

[Stigmata]

...sigh. Okay, since I can't sleep right now:

I think that the R H and I had when we first got together is why I would be so independent now. I feel like I was taken advantage of by somebody who was supposed to care about me. I know what we had wasn't love and it only makes me doubt everything we've ever had. The fact that H can't acknowledge this only solidifies my fear that he would go straight back to that kind of R if only I would let it happen. Those are probably the days he felt most 'loved' by me and 'coincidentally', they are the days I was most afraid of him and clueless about myself.

- Ok, this says a lot, Heather about some of your unresolved feelings. Be careful. You are setting yourself up with the "if only"s and "should have"s.

You are where you are right at this moment due to the string of decisions you made for yourself and your R. Yes, maybe you were a little naive e and followed your feelings but hindsight is 20/20 on ALL things. It is useless to fault yourself or fault H for where you are today. You both did the best you could with what you had back then and neither of you had a crystal ball or the security of wisdom and life experience.

As for H acknowledging your sentiment that you were perhaps taken advantage of and it was not love...stop that. He won't acknowledge this right now nor will he ever possibly. He may have different thoughts on the matter. Wanting closure on how you feel about your R way back then is engaging in self-torture. We accept our decisions, learn from them, and grow so we're better prepared for the future.

And this fear about the R going right back there since H is stuck. Heather, don't be afraid. You have already changed so much due to realizations that you don't have to give all of your power away to OP that your R never will go back to those naive times. It will either be a healthier/more mature R than those days or you will be D'd and single again.

You have to realize Heather...by not standing up for yourself from day one you have allowed this monster version of H to grow out of control and this is not his fault either. He simply ran with the ball and breezed through all of your nonexistent boundaries. This doormat type behavior is what creates monsters for all of us. I created my own friggin monster with x because of my hubris. I thought I was too cool for school because I gave her the freedom she wanted to not feel restrained in an R as long as this freedom wasn't malicious to either one. Hubris. Arrogance. Cockiness that, hey, my woman knows who's the real deal. I can just kick back. Well, by the time I slammed down some boundaries to elicit respectful behaviorr she already crossed the line with an OM who put her in her place in every sense of the word.

So back to you, this is what you're facing. You have years of powermongering consumption from H to deal with and it's not going to all happen at once to get your power back that you handed to him on a silver platter at 17. I know it's hard to believe right now but he will respect you more and more each time he runs into a wall you've erected to keep him out of your inner place containing your self-respect and personal integrity and belief system--especially as these same things are not harmful to either one of you but rather what would be considered part of a healthy sense of identity in any person, quite frankly.

I can't trust his motives.....I don't think H and share the same views about what a healthy R is. Especially now, because he can so easily use my A now to justify the same BS views he's always had. My A changes a lot of things, but it doesn't take away all the progress I've made with my free will since I was 17.

- Right, it doesn't. This leads me back to my comment that you let H take the reins. No, not for you to give up. You just said you don't think H can even share your views of what an healthy R is.

As I've said, you've done so much to try and fix your R that I haven't seen any mention yet to speak of about what H suggests as an positive approach for you both to get back to an R of trust and love. 50-50 as cobra said and I felt your baby step progress was going well until I heard your latest frame of mind and serious case of dontgiveashititis. Your growing frustration and building resentment for H led me to believe that excusing yourself from fix-it mode might be warranted right now as trying to appease H's behaviors with this bad frame of mind will either cause more damage through your incongruence or you will explode from the bottled anger.

This is why, as even your MC said, H needs to step up to the plate. It is up to you to pin him down on this. Without anger and with loving sincerity you have to request H please please please list some concrete examples of what you both can do to repair all the hurt so you can finally end this 2 year painful dance. Then take this list to the MC and go over each point or solution. (And I'd like to be there to hear the MC's reaction if "Send a company-wide email out confessing to your affair from 2 years ago." Maybe another objective witness can make him understand the errors in this kind of problem solving....uh...logic.)

I need some closure, some acknowledgement, some form of recognition from him. Not so I can see him repent, but that so I know he recognizes what he did to me. If he doesn't recognize it, how can I trust him to never try to take me back there? I can't.

-- Guess what? I needed closure too from the ILYBINILWY. Didn't get it nor do I see ever getting it. So what have I done about it? Nothing. I stopped torturing myself. So be it. I grabbed all of my power back from x and I am not letting her decision hurt me anymore than I've already allowed. As a result, my firm belief that I do not need her for anything further and won't have a problem finding willing Fs to be with has caused her to initiate more contact--of which I have responded only on my own terms, at the time I so choose, and in the form I desire.

Giving myself my own closure is what I'm trying to say I guess as it relates to your sitch. Don't wait for it. Close it yourself especially seeing as it's past history.

...how can I trust him to never try to take me back there?

- I think cobra already addressed this. More Schnarchian thinking for you here. "Take me" suggests you cannot choose your own path as to where the R goes from here. Yes, he can take the lead in terms of your R if you so choose but remind yourself that you ALWAYS have veto power over anything H does that violates your values and can stop this backwards "back there" R direction cold.

Good luck, heatherg. Maybe kick back for a while on stressing about what you need to do and just try not to let H's negativity bait you into feeling the same. Yes, it's dang hard to live with someone who's always in a sh!tty mood but you have to view your H in a similar light as an wounded animal. it's scared an in a corner. If you make quick forceful gestures towards it, it freaks out and will do everything it can to lash out at you to protect itself.

Only by calmly and gently easing up to it can you get close enough to reassure it and help treat the wounds. As cobra has pointed out, now that you know you have been in an unhealthy codependent R and never want to go back there again it's safe and might be a good idea to temporarily re-enmesh with H until he can process his leftover anger BUT, most importantly, doing it while installing more and more boundaries as to what treatment you will and will not accept from him.

-Stigmata-