Quote: I drove the coworker home because it was kind, it is who I want to be and I would hope for the same in return from someone else. H's reaction will be his. I am going to tell H that I am choosing to continue seeing our MC, I hope he decides to return, but if he doesn't, my sessions with her will continue regardless. This will piss him off big time. But again, his reaction will be his.
This is good stuff, heather, and it is SO HARD to do...so hard to get yourself to believe it. It's definitely "character building."
I think you are being a "woman of steel," much like a poster named csw was several months ago. I salute you, and empathize with your very difficult situation.
Your relationship will either work itself out, or it won't. Either way, you appear to be putting forth a great effort.
Been following for a while and have posted once or twice, so if this redundant to what I have said before, forgive me. I can relate completely with you H. It is where I was for many months, in fact close to a year, and went through peaks and valleys on the trust issue. I still do at times. So I am going to look at this from my perspective and please take it FWIW. Remember I know nothing of your H and little of you so this is speculation.
Look at the little things that you can do to ease his mind. This will not be easy, and in true giving fashion, you would be doing this as a gift to your H. As my W made those efforts I clouded them with whys, and is she doing this to cover something up etc. But do them anyway. When he asks why or tries to poke holes in you reasons for doing them, reply “I am doing them to help build your trust in me again. I see your POV and I would react similarly if the tables where turned. I am committed to you and our M, if this will help you trust me again, I am willing to do it.” If my wife would have said something similar to it, I would have been able to ease my fears a bit. Instead my W took the approach of “I am trapped, I have to call you all the time so you do not worry and I do not get in trouble or I am committed can’t you see that?!.” Which of course put me in the defensive battle mode, which is not good. Actions speak louder than words.
I see where my W made the efforts to do what I wanted and needed without me explicitly asking for it. I was foolish enough and conceited enough to believe I deserved it and did not see her efforts at giving. I acted very similarly to you H when my W went tanning or got nails done. If she was grocery shopping for a long time, or errands seemed to get tagged along on each other. I would feel the anxiety and worry. So, in seeing someone else having these issues, I will relate maybe a strategy that may help.
The nail thing, you could not get in, maybe a call to H and let him know the situation, then say “Would you like me to come home and then come back or I was thinking of just getting a latte and waiting so I can get in immediately when he is done.” This puts the decision-making back on his shoulders to trust or not to trust. Be willing to do either, because you are willing to show the level of trust that H is asking for.
The ride home thing. It would have been simpler if you might make the statement that you have some errands and appointments to keep and could not give him a ride home. Then communicate the incident with you H. “H, XXXX asked me to give him a ride home tonight since it is on the way home. I told him I could not and made up some excuse about errands. I did that because I am not sure you would have been comfortable with me doing that activity right now.” See how he responds. You are showing him that you are making the effort to rebuild trust and removing the ammunition he is wanting to use.
The disclosure thing. My W did the same thing. “I am just going to tell everyone about it” My response was do what you feel you need to do. Knowing she would not and me not wanting that stigma on her or me. So when he states that again, maybe, “H is that is what you want me to do, make it publicly known and have people look at me in different ways, including the men that are slime and think they have a chance to try and make me stray again, which I WILL NOT!, then I will give that some serious thought. Are you sure you want to deal with the issues that may come up from that?” Again you diffuse and shine the light on his behavior as being selfish and disrespectful to you without overtly saying it.
I understand where you are at and where H is at. I do not presume to know it all, but from my experience in this type of dynamic, those things did or would have made me look at myself in a different light.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
This is another example why I think you two need to set accountability. His deflections are morphing and they will continue to change over time. He will not let you up for air so you need to lock down in writing exactly what he wants (which will make him think about what he really wants). Then as you meet his requests, you will not have an argument over what the original request was and you can show (and he can see) how you are working on the marriage.
Not only are you chasing a moving target, but that target is actively evading you. Nail it down first. There are waaaaay to many balls in the air right now.
As for your thoughts on being stuck…. I here what you’re saying but I still see a lot of shame based reasoning in your remarks. This is important to distinguish from ego. You may be able to control your ego, but at the same time you can still be controlled by shame. I know you think that by talking to your friends and family you are not concerned with being shamed, but you still react and think as if Shame were controlling you. Shame comes from thinking you or your H should be doing things in a certain way, keeping up certain appearances, etc. I think part of your anger comes from his refusal to follow the “script” (which goes for you too).
Who says the “script” is right? Isn’t this what Lil has been preaching? Isn’t this what differentiation is all about? You are moving along nicely toward acceptance of yourself and your situation. This will help release the anger, give you some sense of peace, and help you to stop engaging in the “cycle.”
Ooh, and be sure not to get into the self deprecation trap. You are NOT a bad person. I believe your affair was as much your H’s responsibility as it was yours. He is 50% responsible for allowing your marriage to get to such a bad situation that you would even think about an affair. Accept your responsibility, but not his.
I've given up my expectations mostly because I'm hopeless that things will be any different.
Everything in this statement is so far from the truth it isn’t even funny. Things are dramatically different now than they were several months ago. Maybe not on the outside, but within you, you now realize certain roads lead nowhere. You didn’t know this before. You have come to understand that you need to stand on your own two feet and not support yourself on your H. You didn’t know this before. You now know what part of your situation is your fault and what part is his. You didn’t know this before. You now are realizing how much your FOO and you yourself are hurting you. You didn’t know this before.
A lot has changed, but the growth has been internal. Now it is time to externalize that growth, to put tat knowledge into action. That requires changes in how you interact. I have given suggestions as well as others.
Lastly, do not depend on your present emotional state to dictate your direction. I believe that if you listen solely to your emotions, you will consistently make wrong decisions throughout life (as will I and most others). Stay focused on the intellectual side of things right now. Try to identify visible actions and changes. Don’t assume. Put your emotions in the fate of your intellect. This is one of the most difficult and scary things to do. It is the leap of faith. So far you have resisted it. Fighting4Wife seems to have come to this bridge too (oops, I see he just posted here too. Great advice F4W!). Think about crossing it.
Heather, I don't know how you keep going on. I remember sometimes, H would say things to me, jokingly accuse me of having a fling with the delivery man or whatever, and it would drive me nuts. He said it was the only thing that would explain why I wasn't having sex enough with him, that I must be getting it somewhere else.
Now, I'm starting to realize that he was projecting his guilt onto me. I understand that's not the case with your H, but I guess I know what it's like to be accused unfairly. I would think to myself, "if this is the way you are trying to make me feel closer to you, it's not working."
I didn't realize then that he was just insecure, needed more reassurances that he was my one and only. I could have tried to tease him out of it, but I was offended. At the time, I barely had time to shower, much less have an affair, and if that was his way of making a joke, I didn't get it. I thought he was just being a bully. I think that's just how he reacts to feeling insecure, he lashes out. I think that's the case with your H too. I know you've been bending over backwards to try to please him, reassure him. Not sure what else you can do.
About the "guest room", I would decorate it. I would drag the computer to the garage, the basement, set it up in your son's room and let him use it for games, whatever. If he says anything, tell him you were inspired by a decorating show and just wanted to give it a facelift, use it as a guest room in the future. Heck, invite someone to come and visit, just so you can put it to use...you might even get to sleep in your own bed while they're there.
Each experience in life has formed me, become part of me, made me stronger.
There is more than one truth to every situation. Each person has their own truth. Although I believe it is entirely possible that people can lie to themselves, it's not like I'm here saying, 'yeah, all this is going on, but things are mostly great...really'. My truth is that H's drinking has gotten significantly better and whether or not Al-Anon is something I can make time for in my life or not is still up in the air. Keep in mind that I am a mother of two small kids, I work full time and I have karate twice a week. You may see that as excuses, but I see it as priorities because, to be honest, I'm just not convinced that al-anon is exactly what I need. With that being said, the option is in the back of my mind.
I'm trying to give you the benefit of my 57 years of hard knocks. Disregard if you want. Goodness knows, I ignored all the people who told me to bail from this relationship...
Do you think that's what al-anon would ultimately help me do? Cutting to the chase, is getting out what *you* think I should do?
So, Heather, I'm hardheaded and don't take advice either.
I take advice. But not if it doesn't ring true to me or speak to me in some way that tells me it is applicable to my situation and/or could help.
The addict has a certain personality, and unless s/he gets into a recovery program, which means a LOT more than just ceasing to drink, and a HELLUVA more than continuing to drink, but drinking less, the addict personality will still be operating.
This is probably really true. Hopefully some day he will realize that. Until then, it's not my problem.
But when the day came when I knew I couldn't take it anymore, it was easy. Heather, you haven't reached that point yet.
I sure wish I was at that point. I *want* to leave H. It's my kids I can't stand to be without. Love is a choice right? To choose to love him makes me feel pathetic. What self-respecting person would love a person who inflicts these kinds of hurtful 'rules' to the detriment of anyone around just to satisfy their own sense of justice? I have been willing enough to punish myself, thing is, I never get the chance. He does it for me. Since this last time he rejected me sleeping in my bed, I can be civil, but being nice or kind repels me like the wrong end of a magnet. I go to bed without saying goodnight, I could care less what he's working on at work, It's pretty easy not to worry about his reactions to the things I do because I really don't give a crap. If not for the horrible effect separation would have on the kids, I would so be living in my own little condo right now. I have so many fears about seriously hurting those two little angels in my life. Like any mother, I believe they are truly perfect and they deserve every good thing life has to offer. I cannot stand the thought of ripping away the security that they know...they are so well adjusted and happy. They draw pictures of our family, the have this expectation, just as they should, that we will all be together forever. How the hell do I tell them any different?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Quote: Lil: But when the day came when I knew I couldn't take it anymore, it was easy. Heather, you haven't reached that point yet.
Heather:I sure wish I was at that point. I *want* to leave H.
If you think I am telling you to leave him, then you have truly allowed Burdbug's comments to make you filter out the good of what I've been saying and hear something completely distorted and different.
When I said "when the day came that I knew I couldn't take it anymore, it was easy," I MEANT that at that moment I knew I couldn't take his DRINKING anymore, so I told him with conviction I had lacked up to that point, "I will not be under the same roof with you and alcohol any more." THAT'S what I meant about it being easy. Once I was sure of what I could tolerate and what I could not tolerate, it was easy to STATE it. I never left him; we're still together.
Hi Heather You want to leave H. You don't want to hurt your kids. You know I've been there a few times, so I'll just share. The hardest part of my decision was the failure, guilt and worry about my kids future. Like you, I wasn't afraid of being alone or taking care of me, but I was terrified of what it would do to my kids. D goes against every thing I've taught them. Families are forever, right?
For that reason and because I'm co-dependent as hell and kept hoping too, we glued it together many times. We did that until our oldest is grown, and our D is 11 now. The problem with us staying together so broken is that my D11 has learned way too much about how to have a bad R. I see that in her. When XH finally moved out four months ago, she was relieved. Any mention of a future reconciliation of any kind she opposes. She remembers the tension, and it also affected her younger brothers emotionally. I'm not telling you this to encourage you to leave, I'm just sharing so that you might think about the downside of staying in the M too. There is one. Your D will see how your H treats you and how you've been angry and withdrawn. Either of your kids might mirror your and your H's role in your marriage in theirs. I can already see my D11 accumulating some of those skills to take forward in her future Rs.
On a positive note, the kids are healing. I'd say they are thriving really. If I compare how they were with XH and I living in misery to how they are now, they seem much more secure and happy. Of course they miss us when they are away from one of us, but they are not nearly as anxious as they were.
Whatever it is that you decide to do, I know you'll do it thoughtfully. Everyone fails, but it's accepting the failure that allows us to move forward and heal. I remember a post on your thread in infidelity.. it's not making the right decision, but making the decision right that counts. It's stuck with me and helped along the way.
I'll also share this. After 4 months of living separately, XH has finally started his IC. I'm starting this week. We've both admitted that we were way too entangled to be totally done and need some help with that. He's starting to see how his depression and OCPD affected our R and so am I. I'm starting to see how my reactions, allowing him to control me passively and my anger played a part too. We've had open, honest discussions about this for the first time - ever. Neither of us are happy that we failed. We do love each other. Where is this going? No clue. We admit we can't live together and need to heal and work on our individual issues. We're doing this for ourselves, and for our kids. We've agreed when the time is right, we'll see the C together to either break the bonds in a loving way, or see if we can ever have a R again. This has brought some peace for us. It's months, maybe even years in the future, but at least we can say we both are committed to this family enough to explore the reasons we're not together and if nothing else, we'll have answers for our children instead of resentment and bitterness.
Just wanted to share because I know we've faced similar frustrations in trying to fix without success. You're doing fabulous on working with your issues and detaching from your H. As control of you slips from his hands to yours, he WILL start to look at himself. It might take a long time, but at some point he's going to have to look for answers within.
If you think I am telling you to leave him, then you have truly allowed Burdbug's comments to make you filter out the good of what I've been saying and hear something completely distorted and different.
I wasn't sure if deep down you thought I should leave the R or not. That's why I *asked* you what you meant by a couple of your comments.
When I said "when the day came that I knew I couldn't take it anymore, it was easy," I MEANT that at that moment I knew I couldn't take his DRINKING anymore, so I told him with conviction I had lacked up to that point, "I will not be under the same roof with you and alcohol any more." THAT'S what I meant about it being easy. Once I was sure of what I could tolerate and what I could not tolerate, it was easy to STATE it. I never left him; we're still together.
Lil, I know that alcohol was the problem for you. For me, it is something else, mainly H's adamancy that we keep our R in this place. Do we have to be fed up with the exact same thing in our R's for your comments to be applicable to me? You seem 100% convinced that the alcohol *should* be my problem with this R even though I've stated it's not my primary concern right now. I thought you were actually listening to me with your comments meaning something like "When I had enough of what bothered me, things were clear. When you've had enough of what bothers you, things will be clear for you too." And my comment was simply that I wish I was fed up because then maybe things *would* be clear for me.
That's great for you that you never had to leave. Bf accomodated your wishes. What if he hadn't? You would have left right? Lucky for you, you never had to make that final call. Unlucky for me, if I give it enough time, my belt notch just seems to loosen every time I get fed up. And I come back for more.
then you have truly allowed Burdbug's comments to make you filter out the good of what I've been saying and hear something completely distorted and different...I'm through posting on your thread.
Ahh, that explains the undercurrent of continuing hostility toward me. Sounds like you're the one getting all wrapped around the axle about Burgbud's comments Lil. You've taken things far too personally. Your one post to me was over the top, but that doesn't mean you have to take your ball and go home. Unless of course you want to, in which case, do what you need to do. I really am sorry if you feel that way.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I didnt think your boundary of no kissing=no sex was swiss cheese...You have to weigh the pros and cons of it.
I suppose on some level, I did weigh the pros and cons. In this case, despite the fact that it could have dire consequences for the M, I felt like it was still something I needed to do. If H was telling the truth when he told me that having sex with me was more than just sex, then it didn't make sense that he was healed enough to engage in that, but not healed enough to sleep in the same bed with me. Right now, sleeping in the same bed would be enough to reinstate sex. So, I felt like his actions were a continuation of punishment to me. When I came to this conclusion, sex seemed a ridiculous option.
Well the first thing you have to do is define your integrity then.
Part of my integrity definition is to know that my actions are mine and that only I am controlling myself. Right now, the biggest problem I have is that H is *telling* me and is ready to enforce that I may not sleep in my bed. That is not right. H has a choice to sleep where he wants and so do I. If one's intention is not to control another, they would not set the boundary as 'you cannot do this...'. Boundaries are what you set for your own behavior right? That's what I've learned here. H has not set a boundary by telling *me* that I cannot sleep in my own bed. It would be more appropriately said "I will not sleep in the bed if you are there" or something similar, which at least gives me the option of making my own choice. That, to me, is integrity. Acting on what I think is right, not someone else's definition.
Got to get dinner going, I'll finish my post later.
Thanks
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
hey mel. still havent sewn the buttons back on your PJ's I see.
just wanted to borrow a couple things from your post for the guys.
I remember sometimes, H would say things to me, jokingly accuse me of having a fling with the delivery man or whatever, and it would drive me nuts. He said it was the only thing that would explain why I wasn't having sex enough with him, that I must be getting it somewhere else.
This is fairly common, typical behavior of SSguys. There has been convos related here where pretty much the same thing was conveyed. in there defense, They really dont understand at all, how there W can not want sex.
The point is, making these kinds of "joking" statements is not confidant at all. There is nothing humorous to a woman about it at all. There is nothing macho, or male or alpha about it either. Its not protective/cherishing. Neither is calling her a asexual b!tch, or Ice queen, in front of her to all your poker buddies, like one of my associates is fond of doing. Stig, if you remember our convo about male voice and how it is received in the brain, you will see other reasons for this too.
Whatever is going on in her life that has her sex drive diminished, (stress, kids, past abuse, the R dynamic.) doing this is just heaping insecurity on top of it. The idea of her saying something like this to you may make you feel studly, but its not true in reverse. Give her what she needs, not what you need from her.
For LDW, the following will not work so well. --> I didn't realize then that he was just insecure, needed more reassurances that he was my one and only. I could have tried to tease him out of it, but I was offended
its gonna take actions. The words would be nice, but when followed up by continuing no nookie.... pretty useless.
You want to leave H. You don't want to hurt your kids. You know I've been there a few times, so I'll just share. The hardest part of my decision was the failure, guilt and worry about my kids future. Like you, I wasn't afraid of being alone or taking care of me, but I was terrified of what it would do to my kids. D goes against every thing I've taught them. Families are forever, right? 
