Am I Creating a SSM Part IV

[chromosphere]

Burgbud,

Do you realize that you are taking a condescending tone in your posts complaining about condescending tones?

When I first got here, Cobra and MrsNOPS hit me pretty solid with some 2x4s. I took umbrage at some of their remarks, we discussed it a bit, and I think we came to an understanding of each other (how much can you really know about another persons intentions toward you, even IRL). Looking back through my threads, I notice that as a result Cobra and MrsNOPS don't post on my threads as much as they do on others. It has nothing to do with whether we like each other or not (I happen to like both of them a lot for the advice they have given me), but the styles sometimes don't mesh. I think Heather is perfectly capable of handling herself in a similar way if she feels Lil or Cobra or anyone is writing in a way that she doesn't appreciate.

That being said, I do appreciate you wanting to stick up for someone who you feel is being unduly pressured. If Heather was cowering and whimpering in a corner just blindly accepting their "abuse", then sticking up for her in the way you have would be more appropriate. But I have a strong feeling that Heather can handle herself very well, even with some of the heavyweights here (who have already TKO'd me LOL).

Chrome

[sat567]

I'm speechless.

Well, there's a first!

Okay, we've determined that heather's tough, lil's handy with a 2x4, and burgbud likes to jump into the fray.

Now, y'all just settle down before someone takes their ball and goes home.

Hairdog

[Fighting4Wife]

Burgbud,

Not joining the fray. I wanted to thank you for the post about OSB. As one of the first people I met on this board, OSB has of late been on my mind an awful lot. It is good to hear that she is alive, and I mean that in the truest sense of the words due to her H violent behavior to inanimate objects in the house.

Thank you and if you ever do get a hold of her, please tell her thanks for her "hand holding" on the board and caring she exhibited.

I now return you to regularly scheduled Death Match XXX.

F4W

[Cobra]

Burgbud,

I don’t understand you at all. I recall you were Phase3 not long ago and were going to some length to defend Heather, saying you had spoken to her personally. Now you tell me you’ve spoken to Oh_So_Blue (OSB) as well? Who else do you speak to personally? This seems rather strange to me (yeah, that’s a condescending remark if you want to take it that way)….

As far as OSB goes, she had a problem addressing her own faults (don’t we all). There was little more she could do than to face her own issues since her H had essentially walked out. If I were to generalize my advice to her, it would be along the lines of Dr. Laura – kissing up to her H to re-enmesh, provide security and comfort and get him re-engaged in some level of communication. She had some degree of success. If OSB were to fully detach like all those on those MLC board were telling her to do, I think her H would have walked out completely. He needed her to re-enmesh.

Does that mean I hated the detachment advice? No, it means I thought it was wrong. It means that the majority of opinions there were overwhelmingly female and strongly male bashing. OSB already knew what she was pissed about. What she and others did not understand was his mindset, his reality. She needed to acknowledge his anger and what he was mad at her about. Nothing else was going to get through.

I remember she disappeared off the board. She made her choice. I have no regrets about that. She, like everyone else here, set their own karma. If divorce is the outcome, then the only one to blame is themselves. I had nothing to do with it, I did not set the ground work for it, contribute to it nor could I have affected the outcome one way or another.

Heather is slightly different in that she and her H are still together, however tenuously. But her H is also very angry, is acting like a baby and basically being little more than a scared puppy (but a bratty one). The changes needed in the marriage seem pretty clear to me, and I think to many others on this board. Whether Heather can effect those changes is another matter. This is the same hurdle for all of us. Mojo’s issues were confusing to me at first, then they started to come into focus. I think both Lil and I were seeing the same thing. We had a tough time getting through the deflection. But like Heather, what Mojo needs to do seems pretty straight forward. Implementing those changes is the challenge.

I do not think any of this is rocket science. The bottom line issues are all the same. Only when there is the occasional true personality disorder do I think the pattern does not fit. So for me to say I could see exactly what Heather and Mojo needed is not so much a stretch. Maybe it is a little extreme since I can’t know EXACTLY each and every little thing they need to do, but as far as the major relationship issues go and what is holding THEM back, I think a lot of people here can see what they need to do.

What I don’t understand is why this bothers you so much? I have not heard anyone else complain about condescending attitudes. I am thinking the bigger part or your issue is within you (are you going to say THAT is a condescending remark?) Just what does it take for you NOT to feel someone is being condescending to you? Does everything need to be wrapped in compliments and self esteem boosting remarks for it not to be threatening? That’s not my cup of tea. So take it or leave it.

As far as I am concerned, people here need to take EVERYTHING said with some reservation. No one is holding him/herself out as an expert or trained marital counselor. The advice is free, as much for the growth of the giver as the receiver. Listen as you please. If you think the advice is not accurate, is misleading, harmful or whatever, then say so. If you’ve got better or at least different advice, then put it forth. Why would you hold back if you can be of help? For that matter, why would you bother to make contact with someone via phone instead of posting advice on the board for others to use too? If you have more information about someone because of those phone calls, why not share it? I still don’t get your agenda. Something still smells fishy to me.

[Burgbud]

(Lil) I'm speechless.

Am I correct to assume that's an insult?

(Chrome) Do you realize that you are taking a condescending tone in your posts complaining about condescending tones?

No, but I'm a fairly fallible person so if I'm doing that it wouldn't be a shock. I'm interested in knowing why you think so but folks seem to be finding this deal a bit tedious. Please email me: [e-mail] if you have the time.

(F4W) I now return you to regularly scheduled Death Match XXX.

Were the previous XIX cuter than me?


(Cobra) I recall you were Phase3 not long ago...

Indeed. The great majority of my posts were under the screen name Burgbud but I discovered my STBXW was reading the board so I changed it. Now that it's no longer an issue, I've changed it back.

Who else do you speak to personally?

I've met eight other DB'ers besides Heather and OSB. The only other one I'd guess you might be familiar with is Joe (Koshka). There are four others I email on varying bases of regularity. I posted in a college football group for a long time, as well, and have met four or five guys from there in real life. I've yet to have had an experience that was even remotely disagreeable or disappointing.

This seems rather strange to me (yeah, that’s a condescending remark if you want to take it that way)….

Something seems strange to you. That's just how you feel or what you think. I don't see how that's condescending. FWIW, I don't remember any comments of yours that I've thought were condescending. I think you draw too many conclusions from not enough information and it seems strange to me how you sometimes discuss your analysis of somebody in their thread with a third party as if the person being discussed wasn't even there. But that's just how *I* feel and what I think.

So for me to say I could see exactly what Heather and Mojo needed is not so much a stretch.

Then apparently we're just going to disagree about that.

What I don’t understand is why this bothers you so much? ...I am thinking the bigger part or your issue is within you (are you going to say THAT is a condescending remark?)

No, I'm not, and I can't think of anything else I can do to get my issue out from within me and into the big, wide world, so perhaps we're just going to disagree about that as well.

Does everything need to be wrapped in compliments and self esteem boosting remarks for it not to be threatening?

Nope.

Just what does it take for you NOT to feel someone is being condescending to you?

Direct communication without insults, sarcasm or fireworks to "get your attention" is what it takes for me to feel someone isn't being condescending.

For that matter, why would you bother to make contact with someone via phone instead of posting advice on the board for others to use too?

Because many (most?) people, myself included, are inclined to talk more openly in a private conversation than when their words are being publicly recorded, and because I enjoy discussing interesting topics with interesting people that have nothing to do with the purpose of this board.

If you have more information about someone because of those phone calls, why not share it?

Because I trust people to make public any information about themselves they want made public and I don't feel it's my place to reveal things told to me during a private conversation in a public forum. To me, that's common courtesy.

Something still smells fishy to me.

So not only can you deduce exactly what a relationship needs from internet postings, you can detect my aroma as well? Remember, dude: with great power comes great responsibility.

[OG_Lou]

Re: Burgbud

But you only knew her from her posts...she's an upbeat, people pleasing type of person and her basic cheerfulness always shone thru. But you didn't talk to her on the phone as she commuted home and noticed she'd been crying (she always tried to cheer up when she talked to me, but it's pretty obvious when someone has just stopped crying to answer the phone

It is true we only know people by their posts. That is what we have to work with. If I was talking to a woman whose H left, I would consider that stepping past my marital boundaries. I am sure my W would call it an affair of some type.

I suppose you are not married or maybe your W allows things like that. I discovered my STBXW was reading Oh, that explains why.

Most SSM forum people are M and would consider talking on the phone inappropriate. At least our spouses would.

I know Divorced people do attend gettogethers.

though you Cobra gave her lots of great suggestions, she was in too much emotional turmoil to implement them and that made her feel like even more of a failure

Some situation like this are difficult to detect from my side of the monitor.

cobra Can you reject advice that doesn't suit? I believe you've done that..........
burgbud Notice how you addressed this to Heather but you just asked her questions which you provided the answer to

I took it as Cobra raising a question you might ask and giving a condensed example of what has happened in the past.

Burgbud, lighten up! You would be more helpful.

Burgbud

Socratic method

Now that is helpful. Thanks for the links. I read some of the case examples. Sounds too familiar, similar to what happens in our and probably many other R's.

Lou

[heatherg]

Hey Balto, thanks for stopping by. You just missed the crossfire

"You are right H, I am not sure how committed I can be to staying in this marriage with the way things are now. I would like nothing better than to repair the relationship and move forward but I do not know whether I can give you the assurances you need with the way things currently are. I am unsure that I can wait until the time that you decide it is time to move forward."

Not quite like that. I've said more like "I'm committed to you, but I'm not committed to the marriage the way it is now. I will not stay no matter how you treat me."

His main focal point lately has been my commitment to him. To me, it seems he has renamed 'no remorse' to be 'no commitment'. His clarification of no commitment has been that I do not take his feelings into consideration, I just do what I want. For example, the business dinner. Then more recently, there were a couple more 'incidents'. I recently decided there is only one person that I will let do my nails (most salons are get em in, get em out and all it does is ruin my nails), but this person is very good so she is very busy. I haven't made appts in the past because I never know what we're gonna be doing on the weekends, etc, but with this girl I found you have to have an appt or you're not getting in. A couple Saturdays ago, I tried to be there first thing in the morning, hoping I could sneak in before she started with her appts, but no such luck, she had an appt first thing. So, I waited for her to finish her client and she said she could fit me in after that. I called H at the time I would normally have been home to tell him that I would be later than usual because I had to wait. This aggravated his trust issues and he felt I should have come home rather than wait so I wouldn't have been gone so long. Needless to say, I made an appt this time.

Then, a male coworker (who knows where I live b/c he and his wife and the VP of the company picked me up to go to the company managment meeting last year in Annapolis) asked me for a ride home one day, VERY unusual, he just happens to be between company cars unexpectedly and knew I drove right past his house to get home. I've worked here for nearly 6 years now, so this kind of knowledge about coworkers tends to accumulate over time and there's nothing fishy or improper about it. Anyway, his request for a ride home put me in a dilemma. He started out asking me what time I was leaving, and thinking he wanted me to work on something with him, I told him 'in a few minutes' and he said 'perfect, would you mind dropping me off on your way, you go right by my house?' I told him I would and I immediately called H to let him know. H told me it was inappropriate and now uses it as an example of why we can't build trust. I asked him if I got any credit whatsoever for calling and he said no, not from your cell phone at 5:20. I acknowledged I should have called from the company phone (I don't know why on earth I didn't, I usually do, I guess I was walking around my office putting away my laptop and was just trying to do several things at once), but I held fast to my opinion that there was absolutely nothing inappropriate about it. He said it was inappropriate under the circumstances. I said "What would you like me to have said, no?" He said "You could have explained to him that there are trust issues in your M right now and that under those circumstance it wouldn't be appropriate". I said "Oh, ok, you want me to disclose that I cheated on my H?" He said "You don't have to say that." I said "Is that not the logical conclusion that anyone would draw from such an obscure statement?" He said "It's not some dirty little secret, it's not something you can keep hidden." I said "I don't exactly hide it, people who are close to me know about it but that doesn't mean I have to announce it....for crying out loud, would you like me to post an ad in the Virginian Pilot?" He said "At least send out a company email."
That was about it.

As I see it, these are the kinds of things that happen in the course of life....he is adding them up and using them as proof of my lack of commitment to him and my lack of remorse. At this rate, I will never ever get back in my bed or receive any level of forgiveness from him. Not that I'm focusing on that right now anyway. I'm still deciding if I care or not anymore.

[karen1]

Heather,

I know that your H continues to poke at you and take pot shots. It makes sense that you are trying to figure out whether or not you care. Realize though, that you need to figure it out because you won't move forward in the state that you are in. What would it take for you to reach a firm decision one way or the other? Do you two attend MC? If not, why not? You may have answered this before and if so, I apologize but regardless, you need to attend some IC. You cannot take those kind of shots all the time without some damage. KWIM?

Karen

[heatherg]

Cobra: What do you think Corri was saying to you and how is what we are saying in conflict with that?

Corri has only posted on my thread a couple of times and I was really combining the ideas in those posts. Lose the expectations, lose the sense of entitlement, just focus on me and my definitions of respect, etc. There have also been several other suggestions to 'not worry about H's reactions' and to just take care of me. That's what I'm doing. If I feel I need to stay in a hotel, I'm not worrying about his reaction, it is his. I'm just doing what I need to do. I think I'll do the same with the room I stay in, this weekend, I'm moving the stuff to the attic. His reaction will be his. I drove the coworker home because it was kind, it is who I want to be and I would hope for the same in return from someone else. H's reaction will be his. I am going to tell H that I am choosing to continue seeing our MC, I hope he decides to return, but if he doesn't, my sessions with her will continue regardless. This will piss him off big time. But again, his reaction will be his.

Cobra: Sure, you can’t cause him to allow or not allow anything. Just simply tell him you do not agree with whatever he says, but he is entitled to his opinion.

I'm getting better at this. Saying something simple like that and just leaving it be. I also ended a conversation the other night when he called me a moron. Just like that, I walked away and said "That's it, this conversation is over". Of course, he returned with "THANK GOD". Whatever.

Cobra: You can ask for anything you want. The probability of getting it is another matter. How many times have you asked to sleep together and how many times has he turned you down? Do you think asking another 100 times will change that?

Probably not. Thing is, it's quickly becoming something I'm simply not willing to tolerate anymore. I can't learn to relove someone under these circumstances. I could fake it and just do what needs to be done, but I would be selling myself out.

Cobra: I think I mentioned before that your shame chains you down. This is more of that. As much as you hate to admit it (or any of us hate to admit about ourselves), you have a screwed up marriage and your husband is a lush. If your friends and family don’t know this now, they will know it eventually. I’m sorry, but trying to keep up a good face to the world is dragging you down. Bring this into the open. You’ve got enough to do just fixing yourself, much less maintaining appearances for his sake (and yes you run cover for him).

I'm going to be really truthful here and say that it is in fact my ego that holds me down. I HATE it that my life is less than I want it to be. I should be able to fix it, to make it better. I am incredibly jealous of other couples who seem happy. I am ashamed, but it's mostly my ego that causes it. I want people to think I'm happy and that things are good. But my friends and family do know that isn't the case. Over the course of this, there has been no way I could have hidden it. I was so broken at first that all I could do was call friends and family and cry. I was at such a loss for what to do, I told more people than one would think I would have. I desperately needed to be understood because I knew what I did was really, really bad. And, actually, I think I need to stop talking so much about H and his problems. I admit now that I used a lot of that for justification for my A, indirectly. I'm not a bad person, but a person who has an A can be of questionable character. It killed me to think that people were going to think less of me know. This fueled my desperation and I thought if I could just explain everything, everything that was really going on while I wanted everyone to believe I had the perfect H, they would understand more about why I did what I did. I'm too tired for that now. I cheated. My M wasn't perfect, my H wasn't perfect. But it didn't warrant what I did. End of story. I'm too tired to explain myself anymore.
I've given up my expectations mostly because I'm hopeless that things will be any different.

[Baltoman]

There are no ways to get around the trust issues as I see them other than reassurance and time. My W did something very minor and I still find myself checking up on her even when I know she isn't up to something.

That being said, if I was in your shoes I might try to turn the committment issue around on him. If he questions your committment to him I would consider something like this:

"Hey pal, committment is a two way street. You cannot expect me to remain fully committed to this R while you obviously are not committed to repairing it and achieving some semblance of a normal healthy married R. I love you, H, but until we both decide to work on building the future rather than meting out punishment for the past I cannot remain fully committed to the R indefinitely."

Like I said, I'm not exactly a paragon of marital success myself so I have no idea what will or will not work for you. I'm just throwing out ideas.