I've yet to see a post to Heather in this forum as brutal as some on Infidelity that attempted to make the case for her leaving an abusive husband. Yet there's more condescension. It's an interesting dynamic.
Yes it is interesting. The same can be said of the MLC board. What I’ve seen of the MLC board does not impress me in the least. All I saw was major spouse bashing, whining on the pity pot, telling each other to dump the SOB spouse and lots of hand holding. WTF? How is that going to move anything forward? All they know to do is GAL and wait. Big whoop. A monkey could tell you that.
You may pick up a condescending tone hear because those that post regularly and have been here awhile have done a tremendous amount of self evaluation. The efforts of this board focus on the person posting here, not the spouse out there. You know this all too well.
So if a person keeps deflecting and dodging, it becomes frustrating to us (well, at least to me) to see this continual denial. I can see exactly what Heather and her H need to do. I could see exactly what Mojo needed to do. I think Lil and others see this clearly too.
But I was not able to see this at all not so long ago. When the “fog” lifts it is easy to tell if someone is being truthful with him/herself and has faced his/her fears. I can see how this seems condescending. It felt that way to me too, and it made me angry as well. But the very fact that I felt that way, and that you and Heather apparently feel that way now, is evidence (to me) that the fog still surrounds you.
We can play nice and hold hands, just like on the other boards. But I have seen more growth, more learning, more awareness on this board in the short time I’ve been here, than anywhere else. If an occasional 2x4 is needed to do keep that going, then I say so be it.
Doing great kiddo. I read your background post a while back in terms of your family life and adolescence. You've dealt with a lot tougher things than measly anonymous BB opinions and I know you know this.
Betcha you can side kick a stack of these aforementioned 2x4s pretty handily with all that karate voodoo that you do. Hm, but can you handle me swinging a nasty 6x6? Kidding.
This beer issue. All I will say about this is I agree with you. I don't think it's the right time for this. If no A? Heck yeah, lay it on him if his beer drinking bothers you. The reason I side with you on this one is simply because you're okay with it at its current level. That and the fact that H dropped down from one hellacious habit to a six-pack or 2 with that crappy O'Douls mixed in for some good no-alcohol empty calorie fun--AFTER the A mind you.
I do believe my alcohol consumption actually increased exponentially after my discovery of the A to help me make the pain go bye-bye temporarily until my head stopped spinning. I'll say it again. A guy with that kind of former out of control habit not spiraling down to that point again or even worse after your A says a hell of a lot to me considering his current deep anger/resentment issues.
Is he? Isn't he? (alcoholic needing AA) Shrug. Seems to be maintaining and not setting a bad slurring/loss of control example in front of the kids. Soooo, maybe back burner and monitor; no use adding more gasoline to his A fire right now. AA will be hosting free meetings every week till the end of all known civilization unfortunately.
I also have a little diferent take on a few more things. Namely, about the codependence book and your guest room. Sure, he may be reading it to figure you out but something tells me he bought this book because he's trying to figure out why he feels so helpless in your R and why your R is unbalanced. He tried to hide it from you; this from a guy who scoffed at the self-help books if I remember. It seems he's not interested in judging you or getting you to read it as much as figuring his own sh!t out and why he feels so needy and powerless.
This is a good sign IMO. He knows it's not working his way and he's looking for answers.
Second. Anger toward you for wanting to put a door on the guest room, clean it up and put the computer in the attic. Sure, maybe just more contrarian punishment meted out, as you say, but I'm leaning to the belief that he is afraid if he *lets* you do these things you might actually start detaching from him via being more comfortable claiming that room as your own personal space. Sounds to me like it's kicking in his fear of abandonment if you become independent of him and he's not ready to have you as a roommate just yet. I don't think he wants you to get used to it and actually start enjoying it god forbid for you both.
I don't recommend this as it smacks of manipulation but if you were a Heather who found herself actually eventually detached from him--going all out cleaning out/decorating the guest room and calling it your bedroom and putting a door on it--I have a strong feeling he would start to panic. Doubt he's ready for that and still wants you to be his W. Judging from some recent comments in your post to me I've bolded later below it looks as if detached Heather is becoming more of a possibility than is W to H in your current frustration mind-frame.
This post is too long already so I'll address the quotes in the next post...
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
So, I had a chance to practice this. H said something to argue against something I said. I asked him a question and then I said "You know what forget it. You don't need to answer that. The absurdity of me even discussing this is similar to me stating that I am a woman and then you saying 'no you're not'." He said "An *honest* woman? That's another story." He didnt' miss a beat.
- He sure didn't. Skilled percussionist with his beat timing he is. Amazing how even a non-related argument somehow gets him to bash you over the head with your A. Boy oh boy is he far from dealing with his trust issues with you. He's percolating, Heather, and these little vents are a sign of cycling resentment inside of him. I did this too. Except the end of my inner dialogue cycling came with a volcanic explosion of resentful verbals delivered with slurred fervor unfortunately.
Thought I could handle it solo and just stuff it. Couldn't. Didn't torture x or punish her, just couldn't understand why she threw away a pretty happy existence together. No, not perfect by any means, but not worth throwing away a pretty darned enjoyable R over a lack of willpower and lust-based attraction IMO. Out pops my inner dialogue like a very pi$$ed-off looking jack-in-the-box:
Booooiiiiiinnnnngggg!
Stigmata: Not until he "sees" that one big thing to show him you are commited to him and have proven your remorse. I'll give you a hint. It has 4 wheels and is sitting out in your driveway right now.
I disagree with the 'one big thing' idea. It isn't one big thing. He wants me to consider his feelings in all that I do and then act according to how he feels. If I act on my own feelings, then I am selfish, not committed, haven't changed, etc. There isn't one big thing. It's everything. It's karate. It's my business dinner. It's staying at a hotel. It's countless other things that have happend over the months and continue to happen that makes him sure I am not 'committed' to him.
- I think you're exactly right. Forget the truck and what *you* think you should do with it. Heather, I think you're done.
Not with the R mind you. Seeing you jump through hoops has made me exhausted so I can only imagine how you must feel. Time to stop. This leads me to what I was saying earlier about how to approach this differently and put the burden on H. You've done enough. You don't know what more to try. H holds the solution and you're like Thomas Edison, learning 9,999 ways how not to make a light bulb [your R] work.
I think you might want to now consider (if you haven't already from your old threads on the other forum) turning all of the reins over to H. You give up. You haven't managed to earn his trust so please, H, pull back the curtain.
"You've done an effective job telling me all of the ways I'm screwing our R progress up with my actions/inaction. So what solutions do you have for our situation? Surely you have proactive solutions instead of always pointing out what isn't working? I'm running out of ideas."
"You haven't been in my truck for 2 years and we've been playing this truck switch game making everything that much more difficult and painful even when we do something as simple as going to the stupid airport. I'm tired of having all of this unspoken resentment over our heads. I want to know right now how you feel about this because I can't take it anymore. What would make you ride with me in my truck? Will you ever? Will you please just let out everything you're feeling over this and quit bottling it up? This has to stop. What do we need to do to get past this truck issue? Do we need to get rid of it or what??"
Thanks for the clarification on the bed issue. So it's not the bed itself but that he won't let you sleep with him. Sex, heck yeah. Sleep and cuddling? No way Jose. Sucks.
OK. I won't bash you with my unwieldy 6x6 over the hotel fiasco (too much heh) and, ahem, swiss cheese boundaries (relax, if it's Baby Swiss you're cool, teeny tiny holes)
I actually think once you made that move it was the right move for *you* as long as you followed it through. Ooops, came back home. Now H can pound you with it and make you feel bad since to him you coming back early was pretty much an admission by you that you felt you were wrong in doing this. Tsk tsk.
It's over and done with. But if he brings it up again here's what you might think to say had you stayed all night at the hotel and caught heat from him in the morning. When you came back I would have suggested a retort like this or similar
"What the F is the difference? What is the difference between me going to a nearby hotel and staying in a guest room and me being assigned to a guest room in our own home? I'll tell you. At least at the hotel, yeah, I had to pay for it, but at least the people there treat me with more warmth and respect than my own H. At least there I can sleep alone in a bed without feeling the constant shame of having to sleep in a sh!tty cluttered room unable to sleep because I have an ulcer from knowing that the man I love fills the house with his silent hostility and resentment towards me. Which would you choose?"
Now, as to the *love*. The detaching Heather quote I referenced earlier. Yes, it's becoming harder and harder to maintain these feelings understandably--so maybe even saying you love him is hard to do at the moment as seen in your own words:
You have to understand, I don't feel kind toward H. I barely love him anymore. I am only here because of our history and our kids. I want to make a new R with him, sort of start over and choose each other again. But there's very little about him that I would choose again. It is difficult for me to act like I love him and that I want to recommit under these circumstances......I just want to come to a place where we can both acknowledge that we are here for the kids, fine. Let's make the most of it. Let's try to make our R a priority and see where we can go. No promises, no guarantees. Killing him with kindness while he gets some smug satisfaction from causing me pain is practically more than I can bear for an extended time period.
- Ahhhh, and this is a crucial piece of information. Do you see? Heather, I think this is exactly what H fears the most. This is exactly why he is testing you so freaking hard with his abuse. Fs are much better at picking this stuff up in their SOs through intuition etc. but I have a strong inkling you are leaking out or giving off this above strongly worded/expressed loss of love for H vibe and he's subconsciously picking up on it.
This is the real b!tch with As. He's testing your commitment to him and remorse over the past yet doesn't realize what he's doing is pushing you further and further away. If you love someone set them free. Damned if that doesn't work nearly every time. It all goes back to that ATL Dave Schnarch rehash and LP's stuff.
Yes, you're both codependent. You're seeing the light. You're realizing I think that you have spent far too much time patterning your daily behavior around how it might afect H instead of looking inside and getting your inner compass fixed as to what Heather wants out of life H or no H.
He needs to realize this as well. Once you both accept that you choose or want to be with each other as healthy individuals instead of feeling like two needy people more scared or nervous to be without each other then the less codependent you will become.
2 people who have their inner selves together to the point of enjoying each other's company without actually depending on each other's company allow for that feeling of non-smothering personal freedom that not only makes one another more desireable but creates a harmony neither one would want to destroy via either leaving or going after an A.
Self-esteem. Love and respect yourselves. I've been there. At some point you have to start self-validating what makes you a good person while focusing on how you want your life to be before it's all over...
...spending far less time dwelling upon what your SO thinks of you and your R due to his/her own issues and how that reflects on your own perceived worth/value to him/her and the rest of the world.
The tricky part of all of this, Heather, is that if one person realizes this with the other stuck it will appear to the more needy/fearful stuck partner as though the one discovering more differentiation is pulling away and/or is losing the perceived "need" to have him/her around anymore to that all-consuming level the clingy insecure partner craves.
This is what I meant by killing H with kindness, Heather. No, don't give up your self-respect when he crosses the line...just pause when you feel the blood rushing to your face and that adrenaline anger wishing to retaliate. Others mentioned your deflectionn. Yes, you both are good at it. Use this skill to bat away his snide comment tests and potshots.
I've said before. He feeds off your anger. Tit for tat parries and exchanges...one upsmanships. Just put a stop to them. Starve his anger with love compliments to him or gestures. If you're not "feeling it" then just tell him "I think that was uncalled for" in a calm even tone.
A loving response might be:
"An *honest* woman? That's a whole other story..."
Heather: Hey. Come here. NOW. I want to tell you something.
H reluctant but Heather continues encouraging. "Come here, Grumpy. I want to tell you a secret."
And when he finally is right in front of you, you pull his head down and whisper, "I love you" in his ear and maybe try and sneak a playful kiss on the lips or ear. In other words, Heather, I'm just trying to say force yourself to deflect his snide comments in favor of keeping the mood light and positive--playful even--like those people you meet. We all know them. Nothing rattles them or kills their good mood--especially other people's negativity. Annoying, isn't it? They either instantly reframe the mood to positive and fun or they just refuse to engage with the crabbypants attacker and excuse themselves from their presence.
This gets back to what I suggested to hairdog as an angle with his W's remarks you may want to try out. Lillie has suggested replying with an unemotional "Oh." Which is fine in many cases but doesn't draw enough spotlight attention on the offending quip in your case, IMO.
You see, whenever OP slide these in at the end of comments or ambush you it's as if their inner negative dialogue suddenly pops out vocally...almost subliminally trying to go unnoticed. That's why I suggest whenever you hear this you forcefully grab it and put it up onstage in its fully naked humiliation.
"You don't even know what feeling bad is like."
Heather: "What did you say?"
H: "I said you don't even know what feeling bad is like."
Heather: "Oh, okay. That's what I thought you said to me. I wanted to make sure I heard you right."
Then make a slight disappointed frown while, importantly, leaving his presence. This is a respect gesture from you that if H cannot speak to you with civility and respect then he doesn't deserve an audience with you and he can just be by himself with his nasty comment hanging in the air. End of convo. Period.
Ugh, Tolstoy would chew my A$$ out right about now in Russian about the merits of brevity in writing while proudly pointing out his "tight, sparing, concise" work, Warr & Peace.
But lots of stuff going on here this past week of responses.
-Stigmata-
PS. It would be easy for me to encourage you to leave H after putting up with so much. But everyone knows that's always the final option. Pull the ripcord. Easy concept, yes. Not so easy to deal with the pain of the descent though. The codependence book, the sleeping together first time in 2 years, the interactions etc. all show H is at least inching forward. You don't want to D without accepting you have no regrets. Everyone in failed Rs end up with regrets they could have worked things out if only--you just try to limit them as much as possible.
PPS. koshka. Ah, yes, home brews are tasty if done right. Low alcohol? Ugh. Leave it to the O'Doul's and Sharps please. Love beer but without that added tinge of lightheadedness and relaxation the result after 3 bottles of the NA stuf is the feeling of stuffing a loaf of bread into 3 bottles, adding some carbonated H2O, sitting back, and watching that gut grow while thinking how the depressant efects of the real stuff would at least have taken away that new unpleasant bloated pinch from your waistband.
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Very nice post and ever so much shorter than, say, Anna Karenina!
I like your thoughts on the room/computer issue. I have one other way to deal with it. If that room is the "junk" room then move the "junk" to the Master BR. "Gee H, this room is pretty big for just one person so I thought it would be more space efficient to store the sh!t in here."
Heather,
Hang in there. I disagree wholeheartedly with Burg's perception of how people handle themselves in this forum but that really isn't important. What do you think of it? If you are insulted can you say so? You already did. Can you reject advice that doesn't suit? I believe you've done that too. If these things are true and you don't feel victimized I think you are fine.
Burg,
It is fine to point out when others are harsh or rude in their postings. It has been done before. I automatically read everything here with the IMO attached so I just don't read harsh posts as that insulting. We have good writers here and so the strong postings can be rather intense at times. Most of us read them, reflect on them and take away something from the one's that fit and reject those that don't. I don't see any as condescending.
Recognize that I am a fairly conflict avoidant person, easily emotionally hurt and NOT a very confrontational poster. If anyone would be offended it would be someone like me. In my M, I need to be willing to engage in conflict more often, hear criticism better and listen to things I don't like to hear and yet not allow those things to destroy me inside. I practice that here.
The efforts of this board focus on the person posting here, not the spouse out there. You know this all too well.
I don't know that "all too well". I know that perfectly well. It's the same as every other forum I've perused on this board; the same as MWD describes in her books. It's hardly a novel or threatening concept to me. But your use of that phrase illustrates again a propensity to be condescending rather than simply discuss as one would with a fellow grownup.
You may pick up a condescending tone hear because those that post regularly and have been here awhile have done a tremendous amount of self evaluation. ... So if a person keeps deflecting and dodging, it becomes frustrating to us (well, at least to me) to see this continual denial.
I'm not sure I understand. You were trying to explain to me why I may pick up a condescending tone here, but I fail to see why folks who have been here awhile and have done a tremendous amount of self evaluation would become condescending when they became frustrated. It seems to me the exact opposite would occur; I would expect those who have done a tremendous amount of self evaluation to be able to handle frustration without becoming condescending.
I can see exactly what Heather and her H need to do. I could see exactly what Mojo needed to do.
I think that's a lot of omniscience for one person to carry around. I don't think this board provides you enough information to know exactly what either Heather or Mojo need to do (more on that later). And you know almost zilch about Heather's H, so that goes double for him. Sometimes you say we're all just adolescents of varying stages when it comes to this stuff, yet here you claim to know exactly what some people need to do. That seems contradictory to me.
We can play nice and hold hands, just like on the other boards. But I have seen more growth, more learning, more awareness on this board in the short time I’ve been here, than anywhere else. If an occasional 2x4 is needed to do keep that going, then I say so be it.
I think you know very little about the other forums on this board if you think they all just play nice and hold hands. That opinion is more evidence to me that you're willing to form strong opinions on the basis of very little information.
As for the 2x4 business, I guess I need to have the term defined. As I understood it in other forums, hitting someone with the 2x4 meant, basically, pointing out where that someone was contributing to their own misery. In this forum it seems to mean insulting, condescending or patronizing somebody. I have no issue with the liberal use of 2x4's under the first definition. I see absolutely no need at all for the 2x4 of the second definition.
What I’ve seen of the MLC board does not impress me in the least. All I saw was major spouse bashing, whining on the pity pot, telling each other to dump the SOB spouse and lots of hand holding. WTF? How is that going to move anything forward? All they know to do is GAL and wait. Big whoop. A monkey could tell you that.
My only experience with the MLC board was following the thread of a friend, Oh_So_Blue. I suspect you remember her, at least a little. Her H had dropped the "ILYBINILWY, I want a divorce" bomb almost a year previous to when I became acquainted with her thru a group of local DB'ers (local being a relative term...some in the group live 300+ miles from each other, but OSB and I live pretty much in the middle of everyone). Her H had moved out of the family home into his brother's basement a few weeks prior. She was devastated. He'd come home on an irregular but frequent basis to eat, help, watch TV, pick something up, spend time with the kids, or ML. But she never knew when or if he was going to be there. Sometimes he spent the night, sometimes he didn't. It made her nuts.
Most MLC'ers advised her to GAL and try to detach (where "detach" means to detach her emotional state from his activities). You hated that. You wanted her to engage him when he came over, to make him feel special, to bring the level of chaos in the house (multiple pets, etc) down so he'd be more comfortable. You insisted that her kids needed to see a therapist immediately, though her D refused to go.
And I think you were exactly right and I think you were giving her great advice for saving her M and helping her kids. You gave her more valuable solutions than anyone else, by far. But you only knew her from her posts...she's an upbeat, people pleasing type of person and her basic cheerfulness always shone thru. But you didn't talk to her on the phone as she commuted home and noticed she'd been crying (she always tried to cheer up when she talked to me, but it's pretty obvious when someone has just stopped crying to answer the phone...and since I'm one to belabor the obvious I always asked her if that was the case and it always was). You didn't know how torn up and responsible she felt for what her kids were going thru and how it would affect them. You really emphasized how much her D needed counselling and she despaired when her D refused to go. A parent can force their 13yo to go to a therapist but they can't force them to participate.
So in short, though you gave her lots of great suggestions, she was in too much emotional turmoil to implement them and that made her feel like even more of a failure. She needed to GAL, she needed to detach from her H, and she needed a huge break from the emotional rollercoaster. (Maybe the MLC'ers were, in fact, giving her useful advice.) If she'd been able to recharge her batteries and become emotionally stronger she would have been well served to start trying out your ideas. As it was, she fell off the map about 8 weeks after I got to know her. She doesn't answer the phone, return messages or reply to email from me or anyone else in our bunch who knows her. I noticed about a month ago that she has an active online dating profile so it seems probable she hadn't reconciled with her H as of then.
I'm not sharing this story to make you feel bad or guilty. I don't believe that would be useful to anyone and you were doing a really good job with the information you had in front of you. I bring this up only to make the point that if you assume you know exactly what somebody needs based on what that person posts on this board, you're assuming an awful lot.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
But what I DO want is to make my point and be heard. Once I see that someone really understands what I'm saying and gives my POV some credibility, then I lose interest in whether or not they take the advice.
So here's my honest, not rhetorical question for you: why is it so important to you that others understand what you're saying and give your POV some credibility that you're willing to become insulting?
As you may well have gleaned by now, that's a big issue for me as well. Everybody wants to be understood but I seem to have a strong need for assurance that my ideas are heard and considered. In my case, I believe that reflects a desire for some semblance of control...if people won't even listen to me, then I don't have much control, do I? But in fact, I don't control whether others listen to me or whether they don't, so I try to remember a maxim I've seen floating around various places, "if you've said it once, you've been heard".
Often, I'm spectacularly unsuccessful.
This probably comes from 28 years of writing grant proposals...
You have my deepest sympathy and appreciation.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Burgbud I think you are making some very well-written points. Sorry to hear about your friend, OSB. Most of the people on ALL of these boards are in pretty fragile emotional states. Yet another reason to not use this board as THERAPY. We don't have a clear picture of what any of us are really going through in REAL LIFE. Let's not forget, this is the internet, people!!!! Cyber Reality, not REAL LIFE.
Hang in there. I disagree wholeheartedly with Burg's perception of how people handle themselves in this forum but that really isn't important. What do you think of it? If you are insulted can you say so? You already did. Can you reject advice that doesn't suit? I believe you've done that too. If these things are true and you don't feel victimized I think you are fine.
Notice how you addressed this to Heather but you just asked her questions which you provided the answer to? It doesn't seem like you were talking to Heather at all, it appears you were making a point for my benefit. You addressed me directly later on, why not discuss these issues directly with me as well? This is more of the patronizing communication style typical of this forum that I keep bringing up.
On a (hopefully) more interesting note it also reminds me of a couple of interesting links. The first addresses, among other things, one of my biggest communication failings: using the Socratic method. I love using the Socratic method, unfortunately. The second talks about the Socratic method a bit in terms of direct communication vs. indirect communication.
Yes - I addressed Heather with questions and answers to give MY OPINION. Heather (and you) are entitled to agree or disagree. My point is, that in my opinion, Heather IS doing fine and since she continues posting, she probably gets at least a little something useful out of it.
I will check your links. I am a mental health professional and I use many different styles of questioning depending upon what my intent is. My style is definately colored by my profession.
