Am I Creating a SSM Part IV

[Lillieperl]

Thanks for the defense, c. I think people come here to hear the truth as we strangers see it, similarly afflicted as we are with the very issues other posters are grappling with. We don't generally blow sunshine up each other's dresses/pants.

Heather, I came on strong to you because I'm trying to get your attention. When I said your statement was BS, what I meant is that you are BS-ing yourself IMHO. You are not facing the truth of your situation. The ship is going down, and you are bailing with a teaspoon. I'm trying to give you the benefit of my 57 years of hard knocks. Disregard if you want. Goodness knows, I ignored all the people who told me to bail from this relationship...

Just for clarification: alanon is for the families/friends of alcoholics; AA is for the alcoholics. If H goes anywhere, it will be to AA, not to alanon.

Cobra, the position I take, namely that she should go to alanon and not demand that her H do anything, is not something I made up. It's the position and strategy that is usually recommended by alcohol treatment programs including the self-help groups. I worked for two alcohol treatment programs writing grants for 11 years and 13 years each, and became very familiar with the "party line," before I got involved with my own alcoholic. In addition to attending alanon for a couple of years, I also saw an alcoholism-oriented therapist for a while, just to understand what would be the most EFFECTIVE way of dealing with my bf.

BTW, this counselor told me in the fall of 2003 to dump him and run like the wind. The C was a recovering alcoholic/addict and said I was headed for a hard, sad life. This was before my bf stopped drinking. Another therapist that we both went to said in a private session with me that bf was not capable of changing enough to engage in a mature relationship, even if he did stop drinking. And then, of course, there's my phone psychic who's been telling me to bail from the very beginning. So, Heather, I'm hardheaded and don't take advice either.

The thing is, the alcoholic marriage is a whole syndrome-- the drinking isn't exactly the cause, it's just one of the manifestations. The addict has a certain personality, and unless s/he gets into a recovery program, which means a LOT more than just ceasing to drink, and a HELLUVA more than continuing to drink, but drinking less, the addict personality will still be operating. Alcohol is only a part of the problem, but it's a place to get a toehold.

And yes, sometimes it takes a crisis to let the alcoholic know that you are serious about your decision not to be with him/her anymore in the presence of alcohol. I grappled with setting that boundary for a couple of years. But when the day came when I knew I couldn't take it anymore, it was easy. Heather, you haven't reached that point yet.

A really good source (including a message board) on alcoholism is www.soberrecovery.com

[Lillieperl]

Here's an outline that is followed at many alanon meetings: http://www.discoveret.org/alanon/format.html

Usually there's a moderator who reads some of this stuff out loud. You go around the room taking turns reading a paragraph. If you don't want to read, just say "pass."

At any time, someone may want to speak up, and they will take a few minutes and comment on their inner spiritual work. Rarely do you hear people say much about their spouses at all. I resisted going to alanon, because I thought, "I'm going to hear my future. I'm going to hear about how bad it is going to get." But that wasn't it at all. People talked about their triumphs, times they resisted depression, or held their tempers.

NO ONE addresses anyone else directly. This is called "cross-talk" and it is strictly forbidden. When anyone speaks, they say their piece, and that is it. Usually the group will say, "Thank you, Mary Lou," or something, but people do not comment on each other's statements.

No one EVER has to say anything. There will never be a time when someone will say to you in front of the group, "Well, Mary Lou, we haven't heard from YOU yet?!?" That will NEVER happen. You couldn't possibly find a more loving and non-threatening situation. When I used to go, I'd walk in the room and just feel buoyed up on an ocean of love. I never said one word out loud. I did see people there that I knew from around town, but everyone is discreet and very respectful of your privacy.

They usually close with the Lord's Prayer; if this is a problem for you, just leave before the end. I used to arrive 10 minutes late and leave 10 minutes early, so I was never even there for the whole hour, and I STILL got SOOOO much out of it.

I think EVERYONE could profit from alanon, whether or not they know an alcoholic. The meetings that I went to were very good. All meetings aren't this good. Just like this board, it depends on the mix of people. I can't imagine that it would ever be a mistake for anyone to go.

[Burgbud]

Heather, I came on strong to you because I'm trying to get your attention.

I don't mean to pick on you, Lil, but this is the third or fourth time I've seen this concept crop up in one of Heather's threads on this forum and I don't understand it. Why is it so difficult to get her attention without being disrespectful? Are people really so wise around here that what they have to say supersedes the need to treat people with courtesy?


We don't generally blow sunshine up each other's dresses/pants.

Deflection and obfuscation. Treating people with respect is not the same as pumping sunshine. Heather's listened to a lot of difficult stuff during her time on this board without the ideas being dressed up in fireworks. Try her.

[Lillieperl]

Try her.

I did.

I couldn't get through with the kind, gentle, reasoned approach.

And if you've seen "this concept" (I assume you mean the 2X4) pop up in Heather's threads, then I must not be the only one. Why do you suppose that is? (Not a rhetorical question-- I want to know why you think people besides me have the urge to grab Heather and shake her?)

[blackfoot]

hey heather.

the BB wouldnt let me sign on on Thursday, apparently I didnt know my password.
Friday my post went into the interne-therlands. Like socks in the wash, I guess. Sunday my computer froze and I lost a ton of projects besides my third effort at a post... <grr> I decided it was a sign from god,to give up, or thats what I get for multi tasking the computer too hard.


For a warrior chick you sure have a lot of white Knights ready to charge, I mean type, to your rescue. hehe.


First I like that you still have Corris original post, to you, in mind. Thumbs up. I mentioned it in my previous posts, but you still have it in the back of your head. good nuff.
I didnt think your boundary of no kissing=no sex was swiss cheese. I didnt think it was DBing. But it was a real boundary. You have to weigh the pros and cons of it. It was your leaving the house in particular that was swiss cheese. But you know it, and its done with. so we learn and move on. Pesky emotions arent always to be trusted. especially the strong ones that make us JUMP to actions and conclusions.

a few of the statements that got me a little fired up. I am particularly sensitive to statements of opinion as though they are fact.
Most people are sensitive to topics they take personally.

This is a free advice BB. Im not going to say IMO 500x per post. Its a given.
Ask yourself why you allow yourself to get so fired up. This is an important thing to identify for yourself, and your M.

The main reason for my boundaries is to maintain my integrity. Whether or not resolution is reached. Ideally, I'd like both
Well the first thing you have to do is define your integrity then. Your H has a boundary. He will not ride in the truck. Yes he expected you to switch vehicles. You have a 'right' to change that implicit and allready implemented agreement, but springing it on him at the last minute, was P/A and had nothing to do with integrity. You said, (please dont make me quote you) it was because you didnt feel like it and didnt want to take the time and effort. Fine. Like I said, thats your 'right'.
if I were to make such a bad financial decision, I would be ruining *myself* out of shame and guilt. Because it seems to me that no one would make such a bad financial decision unless they were seriously beating themselves up
Thats one perspective. another is 'paying the price' for another bad decision. Ill repeat the truck is something you and your H need to discuss. Maybe he will suprise you. FWIW, I had my own imagary to fight when x and I reconciled. Urgh. I hate doing this. hopefully I get my point across.

it took me years to let x give me a BJ. The year before her A, I probably got more then the previous 7 years combined, cause I finally let go. Anyways, thats what she did with OM, in a hotel room full of her passed out friends.

So 1. There was no way I was letting her give me a BJ again (couldnt handle the imagary), after working at it for 7 years being back at ground zero bothered her for some reason.
and 2. when we ran into her friends, she blew them off and drug us out of there so fast, my head spun. (found out why later)

do I have a point. ah yes. Koshkas remark that he would get over it for the good of the M was ignorant.

---> side note. Koshka.

What you did was just provide Heather with rationalizations . Thats how I see it. How is it helpful? Why would you do that? Do you sabotage yourself by doing this with your SO? 2nd Her H made a boundary. Why would you countermand that? He hasnt required, demanded, or made any other statements about it to her, that I can remember. It was all about what he wasnt willing to do. <--

Heather, saying that is like saying the person having the A will get over the OP for the good of the M. You may have been able to, but you see how uncommon it is to happen quickly. Your emotions are all over the place and so are your H's, and he doesnt want them prodded, i.e the truck, and imagary. Personally my Testosterone levels went up almost 300 Ng/dl to over 800 when the affair started. It affected me profoundly (not my sex drive, that disappeared), and I was aware and tried to fight it. Most women have at the very most 75 ng/dl and freak out if you unnaturally double it to something as paltry as 100 ng/dl. We dont just get over this.

Back to the truck. here is one idea. find someone to transfer the vehicle over to, that will take over the payments left. You are no longer upside down, and they dont eat the depreciation. win/win. It will take effort. talk it over with your H. preface the convo with statements like, because our M is more important then the Truck. Because I do want to pick you up from the airport, I dont want this between us, etc.
Thats my last comment on the truck.

I'm just sick of his crap and I find it very difficult these days to try to think of ways to soothe him. I really think my give a damn is busted. That can't be good eh?

Im sure he is sick of your crap too.
Its not your job to soothe him. Its not his job to soothe you ...according to schnarch.
Here is your "job". Im gonna spell it out real simple, and try to give some examples.

Apreciate. Respect.
I mentioned to you before about complementing H on the progress he has made on his drinking. Often we get so focused on what WE think the goal should be, that we fail to see the huge jumps of progress that those close to us make.
For example, I tell my students what a great job they are doing. Positive reinforcment. Does that mean they are qualified to go out by themselves, or even at all into the open ocean. NO. But they make progress and they deserve 'respect' from me for there accomplishments. Your H has made huge jumps. Have you told him? take the time to say I really appreciate how much you have done for me and the kids (fill in the blank.. alcohol, etc) . all efforts like this follow a diminishing returns scale. And your H did it on his own, with no books, no 12 step program, just his own will power and strength. Is he an alcoholic? whats your definition. those with genetic predispositions and an addiction? You didnt say anything about him going thru a withdrawal stage when he chopped his usage. or is he rigidily habitual. Drinking beer and Odouls and going through his pacing habit to unwind. Im not going to diagnose him from my easy chair, drinking his 6 pack or 12 pack or whatever it is currently, that is far less then most Europeans staple diet . Yeah he has a realationship with it, and Ive no doubt that drives you nuts, feeling not in first place.
Like you said, you have bigger fish to fry right now.

So anyways I think it would be better if your give a damn did break, you wouldnt be so emotionally reactive at least. I think it would be good to remember, the fog you are in and the hypersensitivity you have applies to him too. I see both of you working at it.

If I am testing, it is entirely subconscious. no kidding. (sarcasm. I couldnt help that.) I just clash with intense egos. Why? Does it make you more? Is it something you respect/ admire/ want for yourself? Maybe because there's only room in my life for my own. I see another in your life Really though, I don't mean to give you the impression that I am testing you I know. dont worry about it.

I saved AltDaves post and have read it many times.

I should be taking the stance that we will be husband and wife or nothing at all.

No.
You should be taking the stance that you will focus on being a great wife. But you know this, because you just reference Corris post.

Thing is, I can't make that happen and I'm not prepared to leave

Ah this is very good.

I have no idea what his plans are,
They dont matter. Healthy behavior attracts healthy behavior.
He ignores me a lot when he comes home, particularly if he is mad at me, and it's really, really hurtful to me.
This is excellent. You feel something. Identify the feeling and then express it to your H honestly. There is nothing in that type of interaction that comes of a picking, nagging, or making demands of him in return. Your being honest with yourself, honest with him, open, despite your vulnerability and that is very attractive.


bully
you called me a name.

LMAO.

If thats what I have to do to get you to admit Im not trying to get you to self sabotage your own integrity, and needs then so be it. You do a lot of deflecting and externalizing. Your changing it I see it. Dont allow other people to let you slip back into it. You make quick progress when you see and feel something. Everything doesnt have to be on his terms. That doesnt mean you swing the other way and make them all on yours.

At this point, it seems I can't do what it will take. I think you can. I just dont see where you have been implementing it yet. or consistantly at least. you make a couple baby steps and then try to climb a cliff.
Simmer down, Your doing fine. slow down, walk a little, make sure those running shoes are still tied on.

[karen1]

Burg,

This is pretty light duty stuff compared to what Heather lives with in her M. If she cannot practice standing up for herself here with anonymous strangers then where can she? Heather seems fine. She seems able to say what she needs to say here. Why do you have a problem with her taking care of herself. I mean, I understand your concern but I'm saying that I think it is misplaced. I have found the folks on this board to be a great source of support, the straight shooters do so with a great deal of love and compassion. I think if you are patient you will be able to see it this way too.

Karen

[Burgbud]

And if you've seen "this concept" (I assume you mean the 2X4) pop up in Heather's threads,

I mean the concept of "I talk to you that way to get your attention". 2x4's abound in all the forums on this board. Heather spent, what, 8 months posting to the Infidelity forum and has been hammered with your proverbial 2x4 enough to make your head swim. Yet she was rarely talked down to.


I want to know why you think people besides me have the urge to grab Heather and shake her?

It appears there's a cadre of folks here who have the urge to grab and shake those who don't follow proferred advice. Personally I've always been more susceptible to urges to grab and shake Heather's H. She's done a remarkable job in very trying circumstances. I think few posters here have read Heather's old threads and understand what she's gone thru over the course of the past year. She didn't just begin trying different approaches to saving her M in 2006. She's been at this a long time and has been very game to try almost anything.

I've yet to see a post to Heather in this forum as brutal as some on Infidelity that attempted to make the case for her leaving an abusive husband. Yet there's more condescension. It's an interesting dynamic.

[Burgbud]

Heather seems fine. She seems able to say what she needs to say here.

I agree. It's very apparent.


I have found the folks on this board to be a great source of support, the straight shooters do so with a great deal of love and compassion.

I see a lot of disrespect passed off as "straight shooting" and not just in this thread. I'm not against difficult or unflattering information being passed on to Heather or me or anybody. If, however, a point can't be made without demeaning the recipient, that seems like a "plank in my eye/sty in yours" situation.

It's always intrigued me how people who love to hold a mirror up to others, point out dodges and deflections, and always "shoot straight" are so resistant to looking into their own style of communication in hopes of becoming more effective. You get the same dodges (not just here but everywhere)..."I don't blow smoke", "I tell it like it is", "I don't sugarcoat anything just to make people happy"...as if it's impossible to hold others accountable and be civil at the same time. It's not impossible; it's imperative.

[Lillieperl]

Personally I've always been more susceptible to urges to grab and shake Heather's H.

If Heather's H were here, I'd be first in line to shake him, because if he were here, that would mean that he would be asking for advice. I would tell him that continuing to punish her so cruelly for an A that was over two years ago is B.S. But he is not here; SHE is here and she is asking for advice. I live with a recovering alcoholic, so I'm giving her advice from my own experience.

People on the SSM board rarely advocate D. The SSM board is more about saving the marriage. And what most of us have discovered is that you cannot change your partner, so you have to change yourself. Sometimes changing yourself triggers a change in your partner, sometimes not.

We all just give each other advice based on what we've read and our own experience. I am not as invested as you may think in whether or not someone follows my advice-- frankly, I don't want the responsibility. But what I DO want is to make my point and be heard. Once I see that someone really understands what I'm saying and gives my POV some credibility, then I lose interest in whether or not they take the advice.

This probably comes from 28 years of writing grant proposals, where I get very emotionally involved in the persuasive argument and give it my all, but once the document leaves my hands, I can't afford lose any sleep over whether the proposal actually brings in the money. By then I'm on to the next one.

[Dmsw4]

Bud--thanks for that info on AlAnon. I appreciate it. I'm not living with an alcoholic, but I was for a long time...I'm beginning to think.

Heather, you don't need any advice from me girl, but I just wanted you to know I was catching up with you. You really sparked a good discussion here, lots of passion on all sides. Very interesting topic.

I have a friend who goes to AlAnon. Her H is an alcoholic and she wonders from time to time if she should give him the big ultimatum and tell him to quit or she will leave. Then she goes to a meeting and it reminds her how strong she is. You are too. And I know that I must be stronger than I give myself credit for. I might have to check out a meeting for myself.

Take care, my friend, and know we are with you.

B