So the family member has to get out from between the A and the booze and let the bad sh!t start falling on the A with no one to protect him. You just need to leave them alone in the pit with their bottle until life becomes unbearable for them... unbearable may constitute losing the R, losing a job, having a car wreck, financial catastrophe due to being drunk, and a whole spectrum of consequences. The partner needs to protect herself, but to stop protecting the A.
I understand where you are coming from on Alanon but there is a dilemma here. Leaving them to come to their senses on their own could very well require divorce before they “get it.” “Forcing” them to attend Alanon in order to come to their senses could mean lots of fighting and ultimately divorce. I see the risk as high either way. I think this is what Heather is saying too. Although I say below that Heather needs to be careful not to overstate her wants in proportion to what she is likely to get, I think it is also important that she call her H out on his alcoholism. Not addressing the matter, keeping it quiet, sweeping it under the rug are all forms of enabling and shame. She needs to break this shackle.
I agree that Heather attending Alanon is good for her and she will learn to better differentiate and cope (even though I’ve never been to an Alanon meeting). In that way it should influence her H’s behavior too. But if he decides to never go, he must still find a way to clean up his act on his own or this marriage is doomed. I think this matter needs to be made clear.
Burgbud,
Excuse me, but this is pure B.S.
It's not. It's the way Heather thinks and feels. I know that many posters on this forum pride themselves on being hard-hitting straight shooters but sometimes I wonder if a 2x4Anon meeting might be helpful. Heather's already got someone in her life who's sure they know better than she does. Further condescension seems unlikely to be productive (though straight condescension is preferable to thinking she's incapable of listening to someone without being first manipulated into a receptive state).
What’s up with this? Just because Heather thinks a certain way doesn’t mean it is working for her. Obviously it isn’t, and changing our way of thinking is what this board and counseling is all about, right? Ultimately those changes help us to see things differently and then to feel things differently.
If Heather doesn't do what you want, let it go. If you feel the need to tell her what to do, is that her issue or yours?
I agree that it is up to Heather to decide what she wants, but simply throwing out a suggestion, then accepting the fact that she turns it down may or may not be the responsible thing to do. In these emotional, relationship, marriage issues, I see all of us here as adolescents of varying stages. If we were truly healthy functioning adults, I don’t think we would be here. Heather, Lil, myself and so many others are not fully aware of what we do and how we feel. So we may do the right thing, then again we may not.
I for one do not agree that it is best to let someone run through the gamut of life’s experiences first hand, suffer the heartbreak and devastation that can cause, only to come to the same conclusion the wiser, more experience people have. (Of course if they choose to do so, that is their prerogative.) But if they are here, I take that to mean they want to learn and grow. There may be plenty of blockages, but why hold back on knowledge that may be useful to someone just because you do not want to be “pushy.
Heather,
What do you think Corri was saying to you and how is what we are saying in conflict with that? Yeah, you need to get a life (your H really needs to do so), but like others have said, be careful not to further trigger his abandonment fears. Corri was concerned that you not end up in court in a financially compromised position. That was my concern with you selling the truck (which has made the truck a catch 22 – don’t sell it and you hold the marriage back, setting up legal fees, but do sell it and take a $10k hit).
This is akin to the advice you get in self help books....'don't allow it', but by the way, 'you can't control anyone but yourself'. H is gonna say what he says. There is no allowing it or not allowing it.
What you need are specific “how-to’s.” Sure, you can’t cause him to allow or not allow anything. Just simply tell him you do not agree with whatever he says, but he is entitled to his opinion. Then don’t acknowledge his statement any further. THAT is not allowing him to have his “yeah, buts.”
Why can't I ask for those things? Maybe not acceptace, but to be nice and sleep with me???
You can ask for anything you want. The probability of getting it is another matter. How many times have you asked to sleep together and how many times has he turned you down? Do you think asking another 100 times will change that? Tell him what you want, then drop it. If he wants to do it, he will. Move on to a smaller request that will not be so difficult for him to do, and use those kinds of baby steps to build trust through visible actions. Your demand that he change his position and sleep with you has become a control issue. At this point he will not do so only because it is something you want. He will defy you just to tick you off, and it will work too! You give away your power.
I guess the bottom line that I am thinking about is that everything needs to come into the open. The games need to stop. Focus should be taken OFF unidentifiable matters such as feelings of commitment. My W and I still go round with these emotional, “feelings” type of issues. We were fighting over them even more so months ago when things were bad. These issues are a no win game because there is absolutely NO WAY to measure progress (or backsliding) or true intentions. It always boils down to one person’s opinion versus the other.
I will tell you why, if that was a real question and not just a know it all rhetorical question. Because I feel like an idiot! If my H drinks a six pack, and I go to Al-Anon, is that not a touch weird? When, like you said, there are people there whose partners will bottom out at some point from financial ruin, public humiliations or a whole host of other possibilities?
I think I mentioned before that your shame chains you down. This is more of that. As much as you hate to admit it (or any of us hate to admit about ourselves), you have a screwed up marriage and your husband is a lush. If your friends and family don’t know this now, they will know it eventually. I’m sorry, but trying to keep up a good face to the world is dragging you down. Bring this into the open. You’ve got enough to do just fixing yourself, much less maintaining appearances for his sake (and yes you run cover for him).
If your H is an alcoholic, don’t be afraid to say so to others. But, in my opinion, the real issue is NOT his alcoholism but your shame of his alcoholism. Once you face this, then you do not take on any responsibility for him. He deals with it as he chooses. You work on YOU (just as Corri said) in the best way possible for you (as would any other person who has to deal with an alcoholic, verbal abuser, or other serious spousal problem).
I think you can get the Alanon message in other ways than attending the meetings, such as through counseling, books, etc. But going to the meetings will be a powerful method to break through your codependency and shame. And THAT is the REAL ISSUE. THAT is why you keep going in circles and THAT is why you don’t think anyone is listening to you. We are all listening very carefully. We just have the benefit of not wearing the blinders of your ego.
