Quote: For some reason, I feel about this [alanon] the way I felt about counseling before my A. Like it is somehow a negative thing. I don't want to do anything that would make me lose credibility with H and I feel like AlAnon at this stage would do that. He would be confused about 'why now?' and I'm afraid I don't have any answer for him. He would see it as me holding on to past issues.
Excuse me, but this is pure B.S.
Alanon would help YOU. You do it for you, not for him. So what if he's confused? So what if you lose credibility with him? So what if he sees you as holding onto past issues? So what if he has ANY reaction at all-- or none? Heather, I'm callin' you on this: 100 percent crap! And not even good quality crap at that! Just listen to yourself! Geez....
I admit that I was uneasy about telling my bf that I was going to alanon back when, but it let him know that I took his drinking seriously, and that I wanted to help MYSELF deal with it.
I suggest you stop tippytoeing around and worrying so much about how your H reacts to every little thing you do, say, or think. THAT, my dear, is codependency... when you don't know where you end and he begins.
Go to alanon. And keep going. If you don't like the first group you go to, keep going until you find a group you like. Don't speak at the meetings-- just listen for the first few weeks or months. Personally, I went for a couple of years, at one period as often as three times a week, and I never said anything out loud. But I got something out of every single meeting.
You aren't doing this for him; it's for you. "Heather" is lost in this relationship. You must find her and befriend her. SHE is disappearing, fading, DYING...
If he asks why you are going to alanon say one or more of the following (notice that none of these statements says anything about him or even mentions him):
I don't know. I think it might help me feel better about myself. I've heard it's a place where you can really find peace. It comes highly recommended. I'm curious about it. It's free. I'm interested in spiritual growth. It's something I want to do for myself. I've been reading about it, and it sounds neat. I've heard that it really helps people who want more serenity in their lives. I think I can learn something there.
I'm sure you can think up a few hundred more that have nothing to do with him.
You are so right. Alanon is for the people that live with and deal with the alcoholic. It sure did help me. H didn't like it at first, but he didn't say anything after the first couple times I went.
I’m glad you posted that Alanon comment because I as going to as well.
Heather,
You are falling back into your defensive mode of finding one excuse after another why you can’t do this or that. He does the same. You are still deflecting, deflecting, deflecting. You two like to dance with each other, throwing out generalities that can’t pin either of you down and that keep you both from having to make any progress.
It's countless other things that have happend over the months and continue to happen that makes him sure I am not 'committed' to him.
Do you know EXACTLY what he wants from you to feel you are committed? Do you know EXACTLY what you want from him? I think you need to get past these generalities and develop a list of specific, identifiable, measurable things each of you can do to prove you are each moving forward. So far all you both do is wiggle out of accountability, deflect and turn around the argument with “yeah, buts” and go absolutely nowhere.
I think you need to schedule an appointment to talk. Make time for several hours. Negotiate a list of wants for each of you. Make the list as specific, realistic and measurable as possible. Let him list EVERYTHING he wants. Don’t allow him to have the future “yeah,but” excuse that he wanted to list more but he didn’t in order to compromise. That will just be a future deflection. Let him know that you are now putting EVERYTHING on the table.
So what do you want from him? Don’t say you want him to be nice, accepting, or to sleep with you. Those things require him to process his anger and are further down the road. Start with the small things like moving the PC to the attic (why the H do you need his permission anyway?). I think one of your bigger demands should be for him to attend Alanon meetings. Let him know that he is without any doubt an alcoholic and he will have to undertake recovery at some point if the marriage is to survive. He may not go at first, but I think you should have it on your list. I think you should also demand a return to joint counseling (this means setting aside a significant part of your budgets for increased frequency).
What will you give him? You have agreed to giving up the truck. That is a good step (even though I don’t think it is truly necessary). What else can you do that is specific, identifiable, measurable and can be done in a short period of time? Let him write down what he wants. Don’t take any crap from him on generalities like “He’ll know it when he sees it.” This whole thing is about ACCOUNTABILITY. Negotiate then draw up the list of wants for each of you, with time deadlines, then both sign it.
Don’t worry about consequences for failure of meeting a goal. Just keep notes on the progress and when the objective was reached, if it was reached at all. This will take away his ammunition of saying you are not doing anything, or that you have not hurt enough. You allow him to set completely nebulous demands, then get mad at him because you can never reach them, but really you should be mad at yourself for agreeing to engage in something which you can never win. Why would you undertake a journey that has no stated path, no objective, no deadline, no reward? So if you are going to play this game, the very least you can do is to make him accountable. Otherwise go put down your retainer for a lawyer.
__________________________________________________________ MrsNop: Hasn't he expressed the opinion that you haven't paid enough?
Indirectly. He has said things like 'you haven't shown remorse'. He has gotten angry at times when I've tried to better my situation by putting a door on the room I stay in or clean out the room. Lately, I've mentioned putting the computer that hasn't been turned on (literally) in at least 7-8 months, in the attic. I had the hard drive slicked and when I realized it was going to cost just as much to purchase windows XP practically as it would to get a new computer, I was going to buy a new one. So, I never hooked the old one up again or loaded any software on it. It's just been sitting there. But at any mention of putting it in the attic, he says no. It is instances like these that are dead give aways to me that he wants to see me suffer by not having a space of my own. There are a million other 'consequences' to my A that I live with every day. He holds steadfast to his sarcasm 'You haven't suffered, oh, you've just been soo miserable haven't you?! ___________________________________________________________
It is your home too. Part of committing to the M and living like a partner to your H in your home is making decisions of how the living space will look. Put the computer in the attic or sell it on ebay. Fix up the room but don't refer to it as "your room", call it the "guest room" and make it clear that you are sleeping there temporarily. Put the money toward something that can signify a new start. I think a new bed would be a good idea - it isn't the "fact" of what occured in it, it is the symbolism.
All of us are a little sadistic toward our mate. All of us have an "I'll show you" built into our psyche. Your H now feels that he has justification not to temper this ugly little trait that everyone has. The more reactive that you are toward it the worse it will get. When you get reactive and defend then it looks the same as you refusing to "take your punishment." Practice some reasonable responses to these kind of remarks (like Mrs. Nop gave) until they can actually come out of your mouth in a credible manner.
As for whether you are willing to do what it takes. It's academic. Right now you are living there within this M. If you divorce you will still have to deal with H. May as well learn some better strategies now.
Quote: I think one of your bigger demands should be for him to attend Alanon meetings. Let him know that he is without any doubt an alcoholic and he will have to undertake recovery at some point if the marriage is to survive. He may not go at first, but I think you should have it on your list.
Cobra, I usually agree with your advice, but think I'm going disagree with this a little-- with qualifications.
I think Heather should definitely go to alanon (for people who love alcoholics), but I don't think she should make any "demands" regarding her husband's drinking and certainly not a demand that he attend AA (which is for the alcoholics themselves). The decision to go to AA is very personal, and it has to come from the alcoholic him/herself.
I think Heather can say-- IF she can force herself to be this bold-- "I am going to alanon to help me deal with what happens to ME when you drink."
When I went to alanon, I was astounded to find that there were people there (usually women) who had been married to active alcoholics (still drinking heavily and getting drunk) for DECADES, and these partners had no intention of a) leaving or b) demanding that their partners get into recovery. This blew my mind!
What alanon does is get you focused on YOURSELF and your spiritual growth so that it is possible to live in any situation and take care of YOU. Sometimes your spiritual growth means that you do leave the R; sometimes not. And for every one of us who says "I would NEVER stay in a R with an active alcoholic," there is someone in alanon who would say, "*I* would never stay in a R where I didn't get any sex." To each his own form of torture, I guess.
When the family member starts getting between the A (alcoholic) and their booze and telling him what he NEEDS to do about his drinking, the family member becomes the Enemy, and the A starts blaming them for the bad feelings, the tension, etc. "If you would just leave me alone about my drinking, there wouldn't BE a problem! I don't have a problem with my drinking-- YOU do!" And, in a way, when the A says that, they're right. It IS the family member who has the problem.
So the family member has to get out from between the A and the booze and let the bad sh!t start falling on the A with no one to protect him. You just need to leave them alone in the pit with their bottle until life becomes unbearable for them... unbearable may constitute losing the R, losing a job, having a car wreck, financial catastrophe due to being drunk, and a whole spectrum of consequences. The partner needs to protect herself, but to stop protecting the A.
It needs to become very clear to the A that alcohol is his problem, not a nagging partner. Alanon will help the partner stay out of the A's business while still taking care of herself.
You are so right about the deflecting and the vagueness. It makes me nuts to read it and to realize that Heather thinks she's being specific... there's a lot of fog in that household.
(Excuse me for speaking of you in the third person, Heather...you need to clear some of the fog... you two are just going round and round and round...)
For some reason, I feel about this [alanon] the way I felt about counseling before my A. Like it is somehow a negative thing. I don't want to do anything that would make me lose credibility with H and I feel like AlAnon at this stage would do that. He would be confused about 'why now?' and I'm afraid I don't have any answer for him. He would see it as me holding on to past issues.
Excuse me, but this is pure B.S.
It's not. It's the way Heather thinks and feels. I know that many posters on this forum pride themselves on being hard-hitting straight shooters but sometimes I wonder if a 2x4Anon meeting might be helpful. Heather's already got someone in her life who's sure they know better than she does. Further condescension seems unlikely to be productive (though straight condescension is preferable to thinking she's incapable of listening to someone without being first manipulated into a receptive state).
If Heather doesn't do what you want, let it go. If you feel the need to tell her what to do, is that her issue or yours?
Meanwhile Heather, I know this isn't the first time the idea of AlAnon has been broached. Have you looked into it any? It seem to be as much for children of alcoholics (even adult children) as it is for spouses of alcoholics. Just to make this post incredibly long, here's a blurb from their web site:
Did You Grow Up with a Problem Drinker? Al-Anon Is for You!
Al-Anon is for families, relatives, and friends whose lives have been affected by someone else's drinking. If someone close to you, such as a family member, friend, co-worker, or neighbor, has or has had a drinking problem, the following questions may help you determine if Al-Anon is for you: * Do you constantly seek approval and affirmation? * Do you fail to recognize your accomplishments? * Do you fear criticism? * Do you overextend yourself? * Have you had problems with your own compulsive behavior? * Do you have a need for perfection? * Are you uneasy when your life is going smoothly, continually anticipating problems? * Do you feel more alive in the midst of a crisis? * Do you still feel responsible for others, as you did for the problem drinker in your life? * Do you care for others easily, yet find it difficult to care for yourself? * Do you isolate yourself from other people? * Do you respond with fear to authority figures and angry people? * Do you feel that individuals and society in general are taking advantage of you? * Do you have trouble with intimate relationships? * Do you confuse pity with love, as you did with the problem drinker? * Do you attract and/or seek people who tend to be compulsive and/or abusive? * Do you cling to relationships because you are afraid of being alone? * Do you often mistrust your own feelings and the feelings expressed by others? * Do you find it difficult to identify and express your emotions? * Do you think someone's drinking may have affected you?
If you have answered "Yes" to any of these questions, Al-Anon or Alateen may help you.
And here's a bit from another site I stumbled across while googling "alanon codependency". I didn't care for the site a whole lot but this struck me:
"If you want to know what alanon and codependency groups do for a person, this reading pretty much says it all. It doesn't tell you how to do it, (going to meetings will help you with that) it gives you the end result if you are able to give either one of these groups a real chance. Kat is a perfect example of how it works. You talk, and you talk, and you read and you listen, and then one day you are different! You know what is good for you and what is not. You're mouth opens and all this stuff!!! comes out. It is wonderful. Freedom is what it is called."
Below is the Dec. 5th Reading from The Language of Letting Go, by Melody Beattie.
Difficult People.
Few things can make us feel crazier than expecting something from someone who has nothing to give. Few things can frustrate us more than trying to make a person someone he or she isn't; we feel crazy when we try to pretend that person is someone he or she is not. We may have spent years negotiating with reality concerning particular people from our past and our present. We may have spent years trying to get someone to love us in a certain way, when that person cannot or will not.
It is time to let it go. It is time to let him or her go. That doesn't mean we can't love that person anymore. It means that we will feel the immense relief that comes when we stop denying reality and begin accepting. We release that person to be who he or she actually is. We stop trying to make that person be someone he or she is not. We deal with our feelings and walk away from the destructive system.
We learn to love and care differently in a way that takes reality into account.
We enter into a relationship with that person on new terms - taking ourselves and our needs into account. If a person is addicted to alcohol, other drugs, misery, or other people, we let go of his or her addiction; we take our hands off it. We give his or her life back. And we, in the process, are given our life and freedom in return.
We stop letting what we are not getting from that person control us. We take responsibility for our life. We go ahead with the process of loving and taking care of ourselves.
We decided how we want to interact with that person, taking reality and our own best interests into account. We get angry, we feel hurt, but we land in a place of forgiveness. We set him or her free, and we become set free from bondage.
This the heart of detaching with love.
Today, I will work at detaching in love from troublesome people in my life. I will strive to accept reality in my relationships. I will give myself permission to take care of myself in my relationships, with emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual freedom for both people as my goal.
Ironically, one of the things AlAnon meetings appear to address is codependency issues of the participants. So if H asks why you're going you can honestly tell him it may help with your codependency.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Lil: So what if he's confused? So what if you lose credibility with him? So what if he sees you as holding onto past issues? So what if he has ANY reaction at all-- or none? Heather, I'm callin' you on this: 100 percent crap! And not even good quality crap at that! Just listen to yourself! Geez....
I beg your pardon?! You may feel like you know what's best for me and you're entitled to that. I'm glad you're at a place in your life where the solutions for others seems so crystal freakin clear.
H may or may not be an alcoholic, I'm past the point where I spend too much time thinking about that. It isn't the biggest problem we have anymore, for two reasons. One because the A and the aftermath has pretty much overshadowed any other problem. Two because H has cut way back on his drinking. This is progress for him. So, why do I care if he has any reaction at all? I will tell you why, if that was a real question and not just a know it all rhetorical question. Because I feel like an idiot! If my H drinks a six pack, and I go to Al-Anon, is that not a touch weird? When, like you said, there are people there whose partners will bottom out at some point from financial ruin, public humiliations or a whole host of other possibilities? Don't get me wrong, a year ago, I would have fit right in at Al-Anon. Today, I just don't feel the same. I am *not* saying I won't go. But if I do, it will be because I have supporters such as Sheila who offered to make a pact with me~if I give it a try she will too. That sounds like support to me. Not when someone tells me how I feel is BS. I appreciate being challenged on things as it makes me clarify my position, even if just for myself. I admit I can be wishy washy. Being told I'm spewing BS and that I need to 'listen to myself' as though a second read will make me realize that my own feelings are in fact a bunch of crap, is offensive.
Lil: I suggest you stop tippytoeing around and worrying so much about how your H reacts to every little thing you do, say, or think.
You call it codependency and tippytoeing when it's something *you* think I should do. When I do something *I* think I need to do, y'all call it swiss cheese, waffling, deflecting, BS. I come here for opinions, but I'm not wishy washy on everything. I consider the opinions I get. For instance...no sex if H isn't going to sleep with me. That's it, that's all. That is MY boundary. Blackfoot, Cobra, whoever else wants to disagree and tell me that my boundary is crap, go ahead. Somedays, I might let that affect me. I might get wishy washy. But for my own sake, I sure hope I can keep in mind that you are all just people going through the same types of issues I am and that your suggestions and opinions are just that. And, ultimately I hope I learn to do and carry through with what I came here to learn, which was to trust mySELF.
Lil: You aren't doing this for him; it's for you. "Heather" is lost in this relationship. You must find her and befriend her. SHE is disappearing, fading, DYING...
I recognize that. That above all else, even my M, is what I am concerned about right now.
Lil: Go. Stop making excuses and do this for yourself.
I might. Maybe it will help me. I am up for things that will help me. I just need to weigh things. Regardless of what you may think, I do need to consider H's reaction in this. If I felt it was a live or die situation or that it was something I felt strongly that needed to do for myself, then I would. But I don't feel that strongly about it Lil; you do. When I feel strongly enough about it that it is something that can help me, rest assured that I will go. I appreciate your suggestion and I would probably appreciate hearing more about what you learned there.
Cobra: You are falling back into your defensive mode of finding one excuse after another why you can’t do this or that.
No, I'm really not. I'm saying I'm not in 'work on it mode' anymore. Not by myself. I am getting very close to the edge and I want to just focus on me. Remember that advice that Corri gave? You all thought it was so great then. Now that I'm trying to do it, just take care of me, not put myself in financial debt, not do things that I feel violate my own sense of right and wrong. Just worry about me. Now, it's not great advice anymore. Now, it's deflecting. That, friends, IS BS.
Cobra: Don’t allow him to have the future “yeah,but” excuse that he wanted to list more but he didn’t in order to compromise.
This is akin to the advice you get in self help books....'don't allow it', but by the way, 'you can't control anyone but yourself'. H is gonna say what he says. There is no allowing it or not allowing it. I can ask for clarification, but if he won't clarify, or uses recent things that I've done *wrong* as examples of what *not* to do as opposed to what *to* do, how exactly do you suggest that I 'not allow it'? I can ask, but history tells me that asking doesn't guarantee that you're gonna get an answer.
Cobra: So what do you want from him? Don’t say you want him to be nice, accepting, or to sleep with you.
Why can't I ask for those things? Maybe not acceptace, but to be nice and sleep with me??? If those are my wants, why should I not state them? You want sex, you know your wife doesn't, does that mean you should just shut the hell up and ask for ice cream instead??? I strongly disagree with you here.
Cobra: I think one of your bigger demands should be for him to attend Alanon meetings. Let him know that he is without any doubt an alcoholic and he will have to undertake recovery at some point if the marriage is to survive.
You think this demand should come above being nice to me? You think that *telling* him he is an alcoholic, bringing that up now when he seems to be in the best position I've seen him in since we met is a good idea? Besides, have I not said that I feel much better about his drinking? Maybe that would be a demand for *you* Cobra, but sometimes I don't feel like anyone here is really listening to me. I have said numerous times that H's drinking is not really a problem for me right now....that it's better than it has ever been.....why would I risk telling him that he's an alcoholic and that our M depends on his getting treatmenat? That's not even how I feel.
Lil: You are so right about the deflecting and the vagueness. It makes me nuts to read it and to realize that Heather thinks she's being specific
I like people. I want them to like me. I try to be empathetic and see things from the perspectives of others. To a fault. To the extent that I don't always honor what I think and feel. I have good intentions even if I make people confused. Learning to listen to myself is why I am here so I don't profess to be good at it. Yet.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Heather, I generally have far more questions than answers on these boards so forgive me if this is totally off the mark or is covering old ground. You say H always says or acts as if he is uncertain of your committment. At this point you sound uncertain of your committment and given the sitch it is certainly understandable. Have you ever replied to his questioning your lack of committment with the truth in a calm but firm way? Maybe something like:
"You are right H, I am not sure how committed I can be to staying in this marriage with the way things are now. I would like nothing better than to repair the relationship and move forward but I do not know whether I can give you the assurances you need with the way things currently are. I am unsure that I can wait until the time that you decide it is time to move forward."
Simple, truthful, matter of fact. It might set him back on his heels a bit. I know the only progress I have made lately is when I answered Judy's question of whether I loved her with an "I'm not sure". In my sitch I have found that a calmly dropped bomb is far more effective than a barrage of angry responses.
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
So the family member has to get out from between the A and the booze and let the bad sh!t start falling on the A with no one to protect him. You just need to leave them alone in the pit with their bottle until life becomes unbearable for them... unbearable may constitute losing the R, losing a job, having a car wreck, financial catastrophe due to being drunk, and a whole spectrum of consequences. The partner needs to protect herself, but to stop protecting the A.
I understand where you are coming from on Alanon but there is a dilemma here. Leaving them to come to their senses on their own could very well require divorce before they “get it.” “Forcing” them to attend Alanon in order to come to their senses could mean lots of fighting and ultimately divorce. I see the risk as high either way. I think this is what Heather is saying too. Although I say below that Heather needs to be careful not to overstate her wants in proportion to what she is likely to get, I think it is also important that she call her H out on his alcoholism. Not addressing the matter, keeping it quiet, sweeping it under the rug are all forms of enabling and shame. She needs to break this shackle.
I agree that Heather attending Alanon is good for her and she will learn to better differentiate and cope (even though I’ve never been to an Alanon meeting). In that way it should influence her H’s behavior too. But if he decides to never go, he must still find a way to clean up his act on his own or this marriage is doomed. I think this matter needs to be made clear.
Burgbud,
Excuse me, but this is pure B.S.
It's not. It's the way Heather thinks and feels. I know that many posters on this forum pride themselves on being hard-hitting straight shooters but sometimes I wonder if a 2x4Anon meeting might be helpful. Heather's already got someone in her life who's sure they know better than she does. Further condescension seems unlikely to be productive (though straight condescension is preferable to thinking she's incapable of listening to someone without being first manipulated into a receptive state).
What’s up with this? Just because Heather thinks a certain way doesn’t mean it is working for her. Obviously it isn’t, and changing our way of thinking is what this board and counseling is all about, right? Ultimately those changes help us to see things differently and then to feel things differently.
If Heather doesn't do what you want, let it go. If you feel the need to tell her what to do, is that her issue or yours?
I agree that it is up to Heather to decide what she wants, but simply throwing out a suggestion, then accepting the fact that she turns it down may or may not be the responsible thing to do. In these emotional, relationship, marriage issues, I see all of us here as adolescents of varying stages. If we were truly healthy functioning adults, I don’t think we would be here. Heather, Lil, myself and so many others are not fully aware of what we do and how we feel. So we may do the right thing, then again we may not.
I for one do not agree that it is best to let someone run through the gamut of life’s experiences first hand, suffer the heartbreak and devastation that can cause, only to come to the same conclusion the wiser, more experience people have. (Of course if they choose to do so, that is their prerogative.) But if they are here, I take that to mean they want to learn and grow. There may be plenty of blockages, but why hold back on knowledge that may be useful to someone just because you do not want to be “pushy.
Heather,
What do you think Corri was saying to you and how is what we are saying in conflict with that? Yeah, you need to get a life (your H really needs to do so), but like others have said, be careful not to further trigger his abandonment fears. Corri was concerned that you not end up in court in a financially compromised position. That was my concern with you selling the truck (which has made the truck a catch 22 – don’t sell it and you hold the marriage back, setting up legal fees, but do sell it and take a $10k hit).
This is akin to the advice you get in self help books....'don't allow it', but by the way, 'you can't control anyone but yourself'. H is gonna say what he says. There is no allowing it or not allowing it.
What you need are specific “how-to’s.” Sure, you can’t cause him to allow or not allow anything. Just simply tell him you do not agree with whatever he says, but he is entitled to his opinion. Then don’t acknowledge his statement any further. THAT is not allowing him to have his “yeah, buts.”
Why can't I ask for those things? Maybe not acceptace, but to be nice and sleep with me???
You can ask for anything you want. The probability of getting it is another matter. How many times have you asked to sleep together and how many times has he turned you down? Do you think asking another 100 times will change that? Tell him what you want, then drop it. If he wants to do it, he will. Move on to a smaller request that will not be so difficult for him to do, and use those kinds of baby steps to build trust through visible actions. Your demand that he change his position and sleep with you has become a control issue. At this point he will not do so only because it is something you want. He will defy you just to tick you off, and it will work too! You give away your power.
I guess the bottom line that I am thinking about is that everything needs to come into the open. The games need to stop. Focus should be taken OFF unidentifiable matters such as feelings of commitment. My W and I still go round with these emotional, “feelings” type of issues. We were fighting over them even more so months ago when things were bad. These issues are a no win game because there is absolutely NO WAY to measure progress (or backsliding) or true intentions. It always boils down to one person’s opinion versus the other.
I will tell you why, if that was a real question and not just a know it all rhetorical question. Because I feel like an idiot! If my H drinks a six pack, and I go to Al-Anon, is that not a touch weird? When, like you said, there are people there whose partners will bottom out at some point from financial ruin, public humiliations or a whole host of other possibilities?
I think I mentioned before that your shame chains you down. This is more of that. As much as you hate to admit it (or any of us hate to admit about ourselves), you have a screwed up marriage and your husband is a lush. If your friends and family don’t know this now, they will know it eventually. I’m sorry, but trying to keep up a good face to the world is dragging you down. Bring this into the open. You’ve got enough to do just fixing yourself, much less maintaining appearances for his sake (and yes you run cover for him).
If your H is an alcoholic, don’t be afraid to say so to others. But, in my opinion, the real issue is NOT his alcoholism but your shame of his alcoholism. Once you face this, then you do not take on any responsibility for him. He deals with it as he chooses. You work on YOU (just as Corri said) in the best way possible for you (as would any other person who has to deal with an alcoholic, verbal abuser, or other serious spousal problem).
I think you can get the Alanon message in other ways than attending the meetings, such as through counseling, books, etc. But going to the meetings will be a powerful method to break through your codependency and shame. And THAT is the REAL ISSUE. THAT is why you keep going in circles and THAT is why you don’t think anyone is listening to you. We are all listening very carefully. We just have the benefit of not wearing the blinders of your ego.
I agree that it is up to Heather to decide what she wants, but simply throwing out a suggestion, then accepting the fact that she turns it down may or may not be the responsible thing to do.
First, if you don't see a distinction between "simply throwing out a suggestion" and "Heather, I'm callin' you on this: 100 percent crap! And not even good quality crap at that! Just listen to yourself! Geez.... " then we may not have enough common ground for a discussion.
Second, what's your alternative to accepting the fact that she may turn down somebody's suggestion? Are you really able to avoid that somehow?
I for one do not agree that it is best to let someone run through the gamut of life’s experiences first hand,
Nobody "let's" Heather or me or anybody other than themselves run the gamut of life's experiences, whether it's best or not. It's interesting to me that you believe we're all adolescents of varying stages, yet you also believe you know what's best for people.
...but why hold back on knowledge that may be useful to someone just because you do not want to be “pushy.
False dichotomy. Nothing prevents anybody from sharing knowledge that may be useful without being pushy. Since people generally resist knowledge that's shared in a pushy manner, if one's goal is to be genuinely helpful it seems best to avoid pushiness. If the goal is to express frustration and exasperation then the helpfulness factor is going to be mitigated.
If Heather expressed a suggestion to her H in the manner of the post in question, would you tell her she was on the right track? If not, why is it fine for Lil but not for Heather?
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
