Am I Creating a SSM Part IV

[blackfoot]

I gave him a choice. Ride in my truck or take a cab. I didn't take the other truck to work today because I didn't want to, quite simply. I wasn't asked if I would switch trucks and come pick him up. It was expected. I'm not trying to escalate

yes you gave him a choice. But he has allready said prior to that he is not riding in that truck. So you were not really giving him a choice. You were trying to force a conflict/resolution out of the situation.

You didnt say why you couldnt take the other vehicle to work to avoid all the extra driving/switching... unless it was you didnt feel like it. Ok. thats fine. so from his perspective, he was gone for a few days and you dont care about him enough to pick him up from the airport. shrug... who knows.





I understand you would prefer if he were proactive and told you he wanted you to sell your truck, etc. But maybe from his viewpoint he is being differentiated (even if he doesnt know that term) by not telling you what to do. He is stating what he is not willing to do. And watching and waiting to see if you will do what needs to be done. In fact he says that.

he took a cab home, he took care of himself. He doesnt seem to have a problem with that option when it is required of him. In fact he snaps right into it whenever there is a problem, and draws what he considers to be his family/dependants around him and take care of them as well. Which would be a reference to your kids. Very differentiated of him. He doesnt ask you for much does he? Very differentiated of him.

being differentiated can be used for the breakup of a R just as well as it can for self improvement. Its all perspective of the person receiving and the person delivering the attitude. Instead of waiting or trying to force him to be proactive about it why dont you ask him what he thinks... be proactive yourself, and ask him if he has any suggestions on what could be done to resolve the vehicle issue. This is an outline for future conflicts.



telling him I was glad he was home, etc. It seems to have worked, as we are getting along now good

If I told you I had an A because I wanted H's attention, which may be somewhat true, would you say that's a differentiated stance?

I heard this somewhere before.... oh yeah my x.
I told her something along the lines of it was pathetic and needy and her inability to control her perspective and her emotions was pretty scary considering she wanted to have kids. and if she thought OM really loved her then it was selfish and unkind to use OM like that. I told her if she tried to bring her biological drivings and try to rationalize them with me and lie about her confusion that she could go talk to the wall and save her breath and my time.

This was one of our fights during reconcil where she pointed a finger at me.... and I proceeded to nail her to the floor all while having a perfectly calm voice, and true statements. I had absolutely no care how it affected her emotionally. I let her deal with her own problems.

Pretty differentiated of me wouldnt you say?
I gurantee my x would say that I am really really differentiated.

I doubt that made her feel valued, cherished, understood or cared for though. What do you think?


The truth is in my pain I got angry and I was unable to control it, and verbally hashed and slashed (which is apparantly worse the physically doing it according to many women) at someone who already had tremendous guilt for succumbing to someone to OM who assaulted her defenses at very basic levels, while I stood by and provided no protection.
I can tolerate a lot of pain. But when my threshold is crossed (emotional or physical) I cant control the anger that comes next. The thresholds are too high to effectively practice getting over it.

Back to you.
So no its not differentiated.

But if you read Lils post to me In Cobras thread Im sure youll see that you felt many of the things listed on the positive side of the differentiation equation towards your H during that time. Plus Ive seen it and heard it often enough from people having them.

I personally would just like to acknowledge that although that's how things are now, I want to work on making them better.

Dont 'want to'. YOU do what you know needs to be done. Its not even that important to your H that it is verbalized what needs to be done. He will see and respond to the actions.


But* it's time to either move forward or get out.

Its 'time' to do what needs to be done. When you do that, things will move forward. It takes time to get over a injury this serious. You dont get to place a deadline on your H's pain. You can take action, and make statements that may reign in his behavior when its hurtful.
What are you doing to reign in your behavior to prevent yourself from constantly testing him, for his strength? You do this alot. Much of it does come from your FOO.

You can parse your metaphors any way you want, and please expect the same in return

Thank you for allowing that. Its very kind of you...

and I appreciate the same but never expect it. I expect people to be nice and smarmy and afraid of being honest.
I find it fun to challenge you and banter with you
I know.
It can be fun, but it can get old after awhile too. You like to go toe to toe. Its cute to me, but in a R its not going to get the response you want from your H. I will admit I pushed your buttons pretty hard so we could finally have this conversation. Im confidant from your response to my first post that you have what it takes to get on the right track.
Put the fun part of it back into the bantering with your H. Let up on some of the challenge part. He has proven himself pretty well. Monitor yourself as much as you monitor him.

[heatherg]

yes you gave him a choice. But he has allready said prior to that he is not riding in that truck. So you were not really giving him a choice. You were trying to force a conflict/resolution out of the situation.

BS. Of course I want resolution to the conflict and like most other human beings, I'd like it to be my way. But that's not the ultimate goal of what I did. Did you read my post above, where I said I know H well enough to know that if hes says he isn't going to ride in my vehicle again, then I know he means it? Did you see that? Well, there you go. But I want him to know that my behavior will be dictated by what *I* feel is right. I won't be expected to play by his rules even if I don't agree with them. My main goal is to preserve my integrity and gain some respect, even if it is only my own respect. Maybe H will end up hating me. I am prepared to end in D.
If I could trade in my truck with a somewhat reasonable transaction, I would. There may be some of you out there who feel that 10 grand is a small price to pay for putting the truck issue behind me. I'm not there, I make good money but by no means am I wealthy. Nor stupid enough to throw away that kind of money. For crying out loud, that kind of money could seriously boost the kids' college fund or countless other things. So, that is past discussion, at least for me. Feel free to leave your opinions, that's why I'm here. I will try to sell it to a third party, but I don't expect much luck with that. So, for now, the truck stays.

You didnt say why you couldnt take the other vehicle to work to avoid all the extra driving/switching... unless it was you didnt feel like it. Ok. thats fine. so from his perspective, he was gone for a few days and you dont care about him enough to pick him up from the airport.

I said in my post above that I didn't take the other vehicle to work because I didn't want to. If he doesn't want to ride in my vehicle and he wants to drive, we take his truck. I get in and I'm ok with it. But don't expect me to switch vehicles, drive his for the day, etc. He is free to choose his own behavior, he is *not* free to choose mine. If I allow him to choose my behavior, I will hate him. I guarantee it.

I understand you would prefer if he were proactive and told you he wanted you to sell your truck, etc. But maybe from his viewpoint he is being differentiated (even if he doesnt know that term) by not telling you what to do.

This is an assumption on your part and it's wrong. The last thing I need is for him to *tell* me to sell my truck. It's better that he leaves it alone. I've talked to dealers on three different occassions now and I get the same story each time. You have to realize that my vehicle was only 4 months old at the time of m A.

he took a cab home, he took care of himself. He doesnt seem to have a problem with that option when it is required of him.

Do you read my posts? I picture you being the person who can't wait to speak, so that they don't even listen to what you are saying. Have you read at all that I said H ignored me, made a snotty remark to the kids "I guess Mommy didn't have time to pick me up". He would not greet me Blackfoot. How is that 'not having a problem' with taking care of himself? Do you understand that he expects me to take care of myself as well? I am not going to go on and on. We both take care of ourselves. We are roomates and that is what roomates do.

be proactive yourself, and ask him if he has any suggestions on what could be done to resolve the vehicle issue.

Good idea, thanks.

Its 'time' to do what needs to be done. When you do that, things will move forward.

I agree with you. The disagreements lie in *what* needs to be done. I feel a need to preserve my self respect right now and that's what I'm doing. I will not be jerked around forever becaues I made a horrible mistake. It's like being in prison where you wake up every day, instantly reminded of the worst thing you ever did. Everything from here on out will not be on H's terms, even if it would theoretically make the M better. Giving someone whatever they want always makes them happy in the short term. But what about the long term?

What are you doing to reign in your behavior to prevent yourself from constantly testing him, for his strength?

Blackfoot, I don't think I'm testing him. I'm just letting him actually live the life he says he was living already, saying he doesn't ask anything from me and is fine with the state of our R as it is. Well, the fact is, he asked a lot from me. Every time I refuse to give him his way, it is an indication that he *is* asking things of me. And the way he acts when he doesn't get his way is an even further indication that he *expects* things of me. If you wanna talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk. You wanna be roomates? I'll give you roomates. You wanna be husband and wife? I'll give you that too. He needs to decide. I'll work on making myself the best option, but I won't sacrifice myself to make myself 'appear' to be the best option. I think Sheila said it best when she said you shouldn't have to break your back or your spirit to be loved by your parnter. I agree.

I will admit I pushed your buttons pretty hard so we could finally have this conversation.

You don't have to push my buttons to have a conversation with me. If you think I like to go toe to toe, I suppose I do when I feel the need. But you don't have to put me there just to talk to me.

[Cobra]

Heather,

I think that if you could sell the truck for a small loss it would be worth it, to avoid one problem in your M. However, the depreciation in new car values is one reason I don’t buy new (I’d be happy to buy yours for half of its new sticker price). The financial hit is too large IMO. Couple that with his demand for you to pay part of his bills and you can really be set back, just at a time when there is enough financial uncertainty in your family’s life.

I still think the truck issue can be worked out. Getting rid of it is the easy answer if you’ve got the money. A counselor is the other approach since I don’t think the truck is the real issue. What will it take to get the two of you back into counseling ASAP and at a higher frequency, say at least once a week (just for a month or so)?

Have you suggested he read any books? He really needs to learn about anger and verbal abuse. There are plenty of books on that. Did you buy a copy of Schnarch for him? Your communication seems to be grinding to a halt and you both are retrenching to your defenses. This trend is dangerous and you must do all you can to reverse it. You need to find ways to talk. The answers he gives you are NOT important. Expect him to say “No” to everything. Just keep talking. He needs to vent (as do you), so that will take some time. Only then will some of those “No” responses change to “Maybe.”

In my situation, after each such talk, my W and I were usually on better terms (at least for a while) since we both felt heard. But there were plenty of times when we ended with a fight. The one thing that comforted me was when she would begin speaking to me in a civil tone with in a relatively short period of time. Little by little that cooling down period shortened. That was a very comforting thing for me, even though I knew issues were still up in the air. It meant that she was not automatically running to the divorce camp and in her way was actually pushing herself. So a first step may be to try and shorten this turnaround time. Just try to get to the next conversation. Forget about what is actually said. Just focus on how often you two communicate.

About his drinking. I am confused on exactly where this stands. You say you hate his drinking and how he acts. But then you said he doesn’t drink that much, only a six pack over two weeks. If he drinks it all at one or two sittings, then I can see some problems, but if its only one beer at a time, I can’t see how it would “transform” him. I suspect the angry behavior you dislike is there regardless of whether he drinks or not. So I am not convinced he is an alcoholic yet (though he could be quickly making himself into one).

[heatherg]

What will it take to get the two of you back into counseling ASAP and at a higher frequency, say at least once a week (just for a month or so)?

I will ask H that. Last time he mentioned C, he said he wasn't going back until he 'sees something from me'. I don't expect to get straight answers from him, but I will ask.

Have you suggested he read any books?

I have not suggested it, no. He has told me he doesn't like self-help books. He gave some reason about people taking what the books say as gospel and it actually ends up creating more problems than there were to begin with. I've told him that I read the books sort of like poetry....some things speak to me and some things don't. I make up my own mind. I gave him a book when he had his tonsils out, passing it off as 'if you get bored.....' it was a book called Back from Betrayal. The woman who wrote it was betrayed by her husband and she told their story of how they worked things out. He put it back on my shelf unread.

You need to find ways to talk. The answers he gives you are NOT important. Expect him to say “No” to everything. Just keep talking. He needs to vent (as do you), so that will take some time. Only then will some of those “No” responses change to “Maybe.”

Thanks Cobra, this is good advice. It really doesn't matter so much what is said right now does it? It would be an improvement if we could just look each other in the eye and speak of anything regarding our R. Probably even anything not regarding our R even. H has trouble looking at me/my eyes when we talk.

In my situation, after each such talk, my W and I were usually on better terms (at least for a while) since we both felt heard.

I notice how much better I feel after we talk, it affects me drastically. H has made comments snidely 'Oh, you're feeling nicer because we had a *talk* last night', or 'Glad it makes you feel better, it doesn't make me feel better'.

About his drinking. I am confused on exactly where this stands. You say you hate his drinking and how he acts. But then you said he doesn’t drink that much, only a six pack over two weeks. If he drinks it all at one or two sittings, then I can see some problems, but if its only one beer at a time, I can’t see how it would “transform” him. I suspect the angry behavior you dislike is there regardless of whether he drinks or not.

H used to drink 6 nights a week, up to 18 beers at a time. Never liquor, just beer. He would stay up until all hours, stumbling and slurring his words. I've seen him urinate in places you're not supposed to only to have him justify it as sleepwalking. He's crawled into bed drunk with his sister. He's puked on the floor at a friend's. He's passed out in various places around the house. He's fallen asleep with frozen pizzas in the oven when I wasn't home, get home and the outside of the oven is black because there is smoke rolling out of it. Those instances are the worst, he didn't do stupid things like that every week, but he did consistently drink the same amount for years and years. He slowly started to cut back and just last year cut back from twice a week and 12 beers at a time to twice a week and 6 regular beers and however many O'Douls at a time.
The worst is definitely behind him I think. H does not get angry when he's drinking, he gets friendlier. I am much more inclined to approach him after he's had a couple drinks than I am any other time. So, I didn't hate it because he was meaner to me. I hated it becaues I couldn't stand seeing him so disgustingly drunk and because I couldn't stand how important it was to him. He would literally not go anywhere the nights he drank. His nights were Mon, Wed and Fri for the longest time and he doesn't eat dinner those nights until 1am or so and would never go anywhere. Since we had kids, he goes places now on those nights and just starts drinking later in the evening and his nights are only Mondays and Fridays now. He cared more about his R with alcohol than he ever did about his R with me. That is what bothered me the most and it just occurred to me in a post I was responding to by MrsNops.
I still have a lot of unresolved feelings about my past with H. That is part of what frustrates me so about his angry, selfish behavior. I know what I did was hurtful. And here I go, doing what MrsNops would say is justifying my A. *But*, despite all the hurtful things I've had to endure, very little of which he's acknowledged, he acts as though his pain is the only thing that matters in our R. My wrongdoing and his pain. Nothing else counts, nothing else matters, nothing else justifies, there's nothing else to talk about. Now, go to sleep in the guest room you horrible wife, you don't deserve a normal life after what you've done.

[Cobra]

Heather,

As I read through your responses I see nothing but deflection after deflection. Remember how we kept hounding Mojo, calling her out on inconsistencies and asking for further explanation? That’s how I think you need to approach your H – from a standpoint of ignorance, trying to understand his logic (if there is any).

I will ask H that. Last time he mentioned C, he said he wasn't going back until he 'sees something from me'. I don't expect to get straight answers from him, but I will ask.

You might lay out some of the things you have done and are doing and ask if he has noticed (to which he will probably say no). Build you case systematically and ask how you are to get credit for the things you have done if he does not have the ability to see them. His own requirement is based on two things – you changing and him be ABLE to see those changes. Tell him you need a counselor to objectively evaluate what is going on and the improvements made. You will not allow him to be the sole presiding judge.

I have not suggested it, no. He has told me he doesn't like self-help books. He gave some reason about people taking what the books say as gospel and it actually ends up creating more problems than there were to begin with.

Press this issue too. If he hasn’t read any books, how can he make that statement? Ask him point blank what he is afraid of? Is he afraid he might find out something needs to be changed with him (which is the real reason he avoids counseling and the books)? Consistently, firmly and calmly press this point, asking for explanations on ALL statements he makes and looking for understanding of any inconsistencies. Don’t let him get away with this deflection.

H has trouble looking at me/my eyes when we talk.

Each time you talk to him tell him to look you in the eye. When he looks away, stop and tell him to look at you again. If you do not maintain eye contact, he will go into his fantasy world and start building reasons for his anger rather than truly listen to you. It is another form of deflection. Do not speak to him unless he is looking you in the eye. If he cannot do this, then ask him why and what is he afraid of? Hold your boundary on this.

As far as his drinking goes, yeah, it now definitely sounds like he’s an alcoholic. To his credit he is tying to improve, but I think Lil and others have more experience than I with this subject.

[blackfoot]

But he has allready said prior to that he is not riding in that truck. So you were not really giving him a choice. You were trying to force a conflict/resolution out of the situation.

BS. Of course I want resolution to the conflict and like most other human beings, I'd like it to be my way. But that's not the ultimate goal of what I did. Did you read my post above, where I said I know H well enough to know that if hes says he isn't going to ride in my vehicle again, then I know he means it?

You say BS, and then you agree with me. <cocked eyebrow> Hmmm.
You were not giving him a choice. You were creating a toe to toe situatin with him again, for whatever reason. It is not "a truck issue". It is an issue left over from the fallout of the affair. Seperate your issues, and be responsible for yours. I know you are trying. I know how hard it is.
I admire how long you have been in there working on your M heather. I see that my post(s?) have made you angry. Dont take them personal, if thats what happened. Look at why I did what I, and learn to soften your H's defenses, instead of make him want to strengthen them.

I want to assist you, Im not just here to amuse myself by passing your silly tests. I have learned alot (about womens thoughts and feelings) from reading thru you sitch. Yes Ive read it all ( when I first posted to you). Yes I read your posts.
and I see when the actions you take will have the opposite effect that you want.

Schnarch is great IMO. (Yes Ive read him.) but I see when and where people use self improvement and boundaries like ALt dave discussed in his post on cobras thread today. They actually are using it to break the R. <Hand raised> I did this. More pain then I could handle.

So I hope you take the time to respond and listen to GEL, HP and Mrs. Nops.

Ok. back to the truck. Your logic is correct about the financial part of this. Your H most likely agrees with it. Its not going to fix his feeling.

Cobra you had a hard time dealing with your anger over SSM. Remember? and your devoted and educated to self improvement.

Heathers H is dealing with a lot of anger that you cant even imagine. He is doing pretty damn good.

So it may be the best thing financially to keep the truck, but affairs carry a very very HIGH price with them.
No one likes to pay the price. Emotionally your H has been in his own fog, just like you were in your fog heather. Im just coming out of mine and Ive been seperated for a year and D'd for 6 months.
Financially affairs ruin many people.
So Im not telling you to sell your truck. thats a decision you and your H should discuss. Men dont like talking though. they like action and proof with action. you have offered that partially with going to the dealers. Bravo. But part of your price to pay may be you having to switch vehicles occasionally. I dont see the big deal. My x and I switched constantly. it wasnt hers and mine they were ours.

The last thing I need is for him to *tell* me to sell my truck.
Thats not what I said. Dont translate what I say.

if he were proactive and told you he wanted you to sell your truck

This would be him expressing a want, stating a desire. Letting you know how he felt. He is not going to do this, because <guessing> you should know, and or if you cared you wouldnt have had your A.

BTW. I dont like bringing up the A constantly to you. Im not trying to beat you with it. Im trying to give you insight to your H. IMO you have too much shame (different then guilt) over it, its eating you up-- putting you "in prison". This is going to waylay your efforts. It is pride based. When you can say I messed up... without saying but.. becuase... etc, then you will lose the shame and be able to get out of prison, and move away from it. This is a great place to differentiate schnarch style. Your H cannot place you in prison. only your feelings and your mirroring him, whether thru assumption or actuality can put you in prison. You must get out pronto. You have the keys. Let yourself out.

You do want your H to be proactive. you repeat it constantly.
You have to realize that my vehicle was only 4 months old at the time of m A. No I dont. I dont care if it was 1 day old. buying a vehicle is for most an emotional event. for your H it and the A are linked.

I picture you being the person who can't wait to speak, so that they don't even listen to what you are saying. Well thats a first. Dont think Ill add it to my Johari's window though.

H ignored me, made a snotty remark to the kids "I guess Mommy didn't have time to pick me up".
This is a suprise? His wife didnt come get him from the airport. Yeah thats definitely a withdrawal.

Everything from here on out will not be on H's terms, even if it would theoretically make the M better. Giving someone whatever they want always makes them happy in the short term.
If you honestly think I suggest or want you to operate this way.... my communication is terrible, or your not very sharp. I dont belive either one.

You wanna be roomates? I'll give you roomates. You wanna be husband and wife? I'll give you that too. He needs to decide.
Very reactive. Not differentiated. Your giving him power over you, in an area that he isnt asking for.

I'll work on making myself the best option, but I won't sacrifice myself to make myself 'appear' to be the best option excellent. dont 'appear' to have boundaries that you dont, either. When you implement a real boundry, you dont wonder if you should have. When they are a tactic, they will cause you anxiety and then backfire.

But you don't have to put me there just to talk to me. I dont want to just talk to you. Your an interesting warrior chick, but thats not why I am here. Im taking a lot from here. I would like to give something back. I do so when I feel I can, and will stop when/where I feel I cant or its not good for me or the OP. you have to FEEL the realizations to make them permanant and internal. Your H knows this (subconscious). He isnt going anywhere and he is in no hurry to make sure your going to 'get it'.

im tired of beating the 'truck issue'. Mrs Nops had a lot of great info in her post. Have you put together a plan yet? Keep reading schnarch, but IMO I think you and H need to work on depositing some LU. . <sheesh. sounds so clinical> Your misapplying schnarch.

what are your ideas for being nice to each other?

[Lillieperl]

Heather, your H is an alcoholic.

Here's something else you're not going to like: if he gets friendlier when he drinks and he's more approachable, then if he stops drinking, he may become totally non-sexual. My bf would also drink 18 beers at a sitting. The fact that it's "just beer" is irrelevant. After bf stopped drinking, he lost all interest in sex-- at least outwardly. Partly because the years of alcohol abuse and the heart problems had affected his ability to have an erection, but also because he had never really had sex sober in his life. He drank and drugged his way through college, through his marriage (his W joined him) and through the R right before he met me. (That girlfriend died about six weeks ago from alcoholism-- liver damage.) When he stopped drinking, he was like a chick newly hatched from the shell-- too exposed to be intimate. You've got your hands full, girl.

And I agree with Cobra that you deflect and waffle all over the place. Focus on YOU. Start going to alanon. Get into counseling for YOU-- whether he goes or not. When you focus all of your attention on him, you abandon yourself.

[Stigmata]

Hi, Heather,

Been lurking a bit on you and just wanted to give you a thumbs up on your very evident shift to stop enabling behaviors that weren't working in the past in favor of standing up for your integrity without falling into your ever so ingrained pattern of losing anger control. Glad you see now how H pushes your buttons.That's his temp job right now. He's an involuntary contrarian. On autopilot until he can heal from his A resentment.

Heather: H, the sky is blue.

H: No it isn't.

Heather: Yes it is.

H: If you say so. Whatever. You're always right after all.

I gave him a book when he had his tonsils out, passing it off as 'if you get bored.....' it was a book called Back from Betrayal. The woman who wrote it was betrayed by her husband and she told their story of how they worked things out. He put it back on my shelf unread.

- Ouch. Right thought, wrong book. Maybe a book about an H whose W betrayed him he would have read post haste...not other way around. Call it the Tim Allen oo-ooo-oo bonding thing. Sure he prob. didn't care what the W thought in her F mind about her H's cheating.

H has trouble looking at me/my eyes when we talk.

- That's because he's an escapist. Escapists don't like to confront themselves or to be cornered. Alcohol does wonders allowing the brain to do this by the way.

I notice how much better I feel after we talk, it affects me drastically. H has made comments snidely 'Oh, you're feeling nicer because we had a *talk* last night', or 'Glad it makes you feel better, it doesn't make me feel better'.

- Nope. He's a broken record on this and how you feel compared to how he feels. Not until he "sees" that one big thing to show him you are commited to him and have proven your remorse. I'll give you a hint. It has 4 wheels and is sitting out in your driveway right now.

OK. This brings me to what I will call Mexican Standoff and Big Purple Elephants.

I know you must be sick and tired of the whole truck and marital bed issue. Don't blame you. Aggravating for sure. But Heather I don't see your sitch moving forward nicely until you both finally acknowledge the fact that there are 2 huge purple elephants standing in your house blocking your paths. One is that truck. The other one is the bed. The negatively charged cloud of the truck hangs over H's head. The similar cloud in terms of the bed issue hangs over yours. Both are rarely uttered or even acknowledged as both parties are afraid of the inevitable angry words once its brought up.

The resultant forecast is an atmosphere of negativity and R disharmony.

No matter how much progress you feel you both are making or the small moments of happiness interspersed in day to day interactions...the fact is these clouds are always there to keep that mutual R-hampering resentment firmly entrenched.

Here's my Mexican Standoff part.

For whatever reason you seem to control the truck; it's apparently yours to do with what you will. H feels he cannot be the one to decide what is to be done with the truck, how, or when. Hm, OM cooties in there somewhere he apparently feels for whatever reason.

Ah. I'll see your truck and raise you one marital bed. That's better. Something he can control now to fight back. Mexican Standoff. At least those are the 2 big elephants I see needing removed from your immediate R.

I know. I know. What's the big deal over a kiss in a truck? Sheesh. Well, as I said way way back, H isn't handling his punishment of you very well because he is so inexperienced in Rs and Fs since you were both so young and he's a bit of an recluse. So his maturation in that dept. is a little stunted to the point of still treating you as many of us have treated our bratty sisters when they were bad to us growing up as teens. As immature as it seems the truck is a big symbol of the A and I think it's removal will do wonders--as much as I am personally loathe to encourage that.

In my sitch the A was, as I have said, a bit more extreme. I can just picture myself walking with x into the OB GYN's office. Um, yes, doctor, we are here because I would like to exchange this vagina in for a brand new one. I won't touch it. Thankfully I gained control of not letting symbolism and OM cooties have complete power over me.

I hate to see you have to do something so senseless and otherwise avoidable, Heather, but how much is your peace of mind and peace of the R worth? I have some ideas for you to approach H with if you're interested. He's really good at finding negatives in your approaches. It involves getting him to offer up solutions of his own.

Lastly. This alcohol issue. First, I like that he is friendly and not angry with you nor has ben violent in this regard. To me this is huge. It lowers his inhibitions and, hey, look, he's an easygoing guy under there while he's drunk and not some angry black cloud of rage looking to punch a few women due to his unresolved issues.

Quite an former consumption history. And drinking all day and not eating until 1 a.m. will seriously mess with your blood sugar and brain chemistry in a not good way. Make you unbalanced.

I think if he can maintain his drinking as you say without getting to the point of his behavior being affected via being drunk (esp. around the kids) that's fantastic. And voluntarily mixing in the O'Douls tells me he is not doing this for him but for you and the family's benefit. That stuff is just as expensive as the real stuf and any beer drinker will tell you he/she doesn't see the cost-benefit ratio here. Beer ain't that danged tasty.

As to my escapist comment. I feel there is a very very loud and extremely negative constant stream of inner dialogue going on in your H. Booze helps him to shut it up and let his good guy out. It's as if this voice sits in harsh judgment of both him and you and points out every single negative he can massage out of any situation/interaction and whispers in his ear: "Punish her, H. Punish her for that. Remind her how much we hurt."

Getting your reactive anger controlled is beautiful. It used to set you all the way back to square one. Now you gotta start finding ways to kill H with kindness.

I might start by asking something like:

"H. What does this truck represent to you? Tell me exactly point by point why you will not ride in it. Oh, I see. If that's how you feel I appreciate your honesty and I respect your feelings. So tell me what you think we should do with this thing so we can finally let go of all the past negatives and focus on the positives as a sign of our commitment to one another and our future together as a family?"

-- And if he seems to not want to decide you'd have to suggest something like, "would it make you feel better if I got rid of the truck? I'll do that if you help me find a way to get the most we can for it. Will you help me?"

Anyway, this allows you to still involve him and respect his judgment even though you are asserting yourself to be the one to offer the solution in the latter example.

Be well, heatherg. Here's to both of you losing the purple elephants so the standoff will finally one day end.

-Stigmata-

[annette]

Yup, have to agree with Lil here. Alcoholic for sure. Alanon is VERY good to dealing with all this.

Heather, I know exactly what you mean when you say he never goes anywhere when drinking. MY H didn't either. Maybe the thought of loosing a drivers license due to alcohol is the stopper there, I don't know. Whatever you do and how you feel, know that you have cyber friends here that understand (((hug)))

Annette

[MrsNOP]

MrsNop: Your choice to go outside of your marriage cannot be justified or mitigated by your husband's actions. If any sense of "I did this but it's partly your fault because of the way you were treating me" is leaking out to your husband, he is going to continue to reject it and you.

I see your point. I take responsibility for my actions, I agree that to do what I did was my choice alone. There was much that led up the A, but none of it 'made me do it'. I never meant to give the impression that I think my A was excused in any way because of the problems we had pre-A. I have a tendency to focus on H's behavior too much, that is frustration in it's most useless form. Yet I have spent a great deal of time there.

---

Heather, please know that my emphasis on this isn't to batter you about the head.

If you felt somewhat justified in your actions as a result of what your husband did prior, and he justifies his current actions as a result of what you did - then where does it stop? The circle of blame and justification continues in perpetuity.

Breaking it down into manageable chunks - when he makes sarcastic, biting comments to you in front of the children, let him know that it is unacceptable. Figure out how to word it as a boundary, figure out an action that you will follow if it occurs again. Then follow through. I don't know that I wouldn't address it in front of the children if that's where he is going to throw the gauntlet. Not by yelling or raging, but by simple straightforward sentences. "Mommy was willing to pick up daddy at the airport but we were unable to agree on how to do it. Aren't we all glad that daddy's home?"

Have you ever expressed to him how you felt demeaned by the sex without kissing and without being able to stay in the marital bed?

Hasn't he expressed the opinion that you haven't paid enough? Have you ever asked him what that payment would be? By his actions, it appears that "payment" is his treating your poorly for an undetermined amount of time. I wonder if there is an opportunity where you can ask him whether or not he feels better after these episodes. Whether or not they satisfy his sense of being repaid.

I remember you saying that he has travelled a lot and at one point worked away from home for 7 weeks. I confess that I have wondered whether or not he has had his own indiscretion and is sublimating his own guilt via his anger at you. Is there any likelyhood in that? I would assume that his drinking would continue at his earlier rates away from home as it did at home. You pointed out when he drinks he is "nicer" - would he have done his drinking in a hotel room or at a bar?

Just pondering so pardon all the questions.

MrsNOP -