Am I Creating a SSM Part IV

[heatherg]

Burgbud: Somebody needs to explain "sunk costs" to that boy.

Since I was a Finance major, I'd be great at explaining the concept, but something tells me he wouldn't be all that receptive to hearing it from me

Karen: Heather, you may have had the A but that doesn't make you solely responsible for the issues in the relationship. I hope you know that. And just because you had the A doesn't mean you have to stick it out if it doesn't get better.

I know I'm not solely responsible, but there's no doubt that the A created a lot of problems. I know it's not all my fault, but I also know that I've crossed a line that should never be crossed. Where we go from here is the problem. Focusing on my indiscretion does no one any good, but letting it go makes H feel as though I 'got away with it'. The wound is healing for me though, I wish I could say the same for H.

Mojo: I think the relevant issue is that two years should be too long for Heather to go without forgiving herself. Tough though. Either you have to be truly confident that you have done some work and grown and changed enough to never be the person who behaved in that way again or else you just have to let the years slide by until you can finally forgive yourself in the way that we all forgive ourselves eventually for things we did when we were quite young by thinking "I didn't know any better.".


I waver with forgiveness. Some days I feel like I have forgiven myself...other days someone will say something to me that will result in my feeling like I don't deserve to be forgiven, like I haven't earned it yet. Time really does heal most wounds and as time passes, it has given me perspective. I have grown and I continue to walk the path of self development. One of the things I've learned is never to say never. Never think you're 'above' making a mistake as major as the one I made. I already thought I would never betray my H. Guess what? I did. So, although I've grown tremendously, I don't pride myself on being someone who 'could never behave that way again'. I just know that I have the self awareness and the knowledge of the pain mistakes like that cause.

Chrome: I know I haven't mastered the biological side of R's yet, so please take this with a little more skepticism than you might ordinary advice. I just hope I can give a different perspective for you to think about it.

That is a perspective I hadn't thought about. Thanks for mentioning it.

Blackfoot: He has said he is not riding in the truck. Period. Why in the world would you force this on him? Why couldnt you take the other car to work today?
You need to figure out why you have the need to keep escalating and testing his boundaries and creating more drama.

I didn't push it. I gave him a choice. Ride in my truck or take a cab. I didn't take the other truck to work today because I didn't want to, quite simply. I wasn't asked if I would switch trucks and come pick him up. It was expected. I'm not trying to escalate, although I see that could be a side effect. I simply am no longer willing to sacrifice my integrity to remain in this marriage.

Blackfoot: If I was your H I would have probably taken your truck out to the desert and blown it up. Im not kidding.

Where were we, ah yes, escalation wasn't it??!!

Blackfoot: So now his reception from being away is what? pleasant? receptive? How is it giving? Is it making a deposit or taking out another one?

Taking out another one. I see your point. I tried to make up for it in other ways, like being extra pleasant, telling him I was glad he was home, etc. It seems to have worked, as we are getting along now and we have been having normal conversations.

Blackfoot: You arent sure that things will ever get better. Your H isnt sure that you are going to stick around, or worse yet, run off and be with another, OM. You both even tell each other you are only there because of the kids. How does this activity make each other feel important?

Granted, it doesn't. I personally would just like to acknowledge that although that's how things are now, I want to work on making them better. But I'm pretty over the whole staying stuck and wallowing in our pain thing. I'm not willing to participate in that crap anymore. You wanna talk about it, get it out, ask me questions? I'm game for that. But cut out the crap. That's sort of my stance and I'm no longer willing to waver on it. That's it. It's not that I don't have empathy for the pain I've caused, I do. *But* it's time to either move forward or get out.

Blackfoot: Personally, I think you are committed. You just think it will remove all your power, all of your barganing ability if you admit that. I disagree with your feeling on this.

I am not committed to the M the way it is. I am committed to making things better. If he joins me in that, then eventually I'll be able to say I'm committed to the M. But I can't say at this point, that I'll stay no matter what.

Blackfoot: There is nobody more differentiated then a person having an affair.

I disagree. If I told you I had an A because I wanted H's attention, which may be somewhat true, would you say that's a differentiated stance?

Blackfoot: The 5 month sexual drought is your choice heather. You are using his bad behavior as an excuse to 'punish' him. The horse whisper Gel would not approve.

You're right, it was my choice. I've told myself the same thing whenever I start to feel sorry for myself. I said "No sex if you choose to leave the bed afterward and/or refuse to kiss me during ML". That doesn't mean I choose no sex for the rest of my life. If it comes to that point, it will be another reason to separate. Am I using his bad behavior as an excuse to punish him? No, like the couples in Passionate Marriage, I'm choosing to say 'No more sex without intimacy'. Same thing. As far as others not approving, well, I'm not here for approval anymore. I was in the beginning, but I am moving past that. I am here because I like to get different perspectives and ideas from people who've been down similar paths. I think you are all highly intelligent people and I value each of your opinions and persepectives. But your approval? Not so much anymore.

Blackfoot: So far all of your boundaries are fake and an attempt to force him into some sort of behavior.
How is this working out for you?

Every boundary results in a two choice dilemma. See? I've been reading! Yes, in order to continue in this R with me, H will have to change his behavior. Or I will leave. How is it working for me? It's an uphill battle, like none I've ever seen. Some days it feels hopeless, other days I think I see change. Like I said above, the passage of time has given me some perspective on my situation and when I look back over where we've been....things have definitely changed. And I feel confident that once H knows he can't affect me the way he intends with his passive aggressive behavior, it will stop. Already, the ignoring has only been minimal. It doesn't last anymore like it used to.

What needs to be done.

Focus on the good.
Accept.
show appreciation and deliver words of admiration. Sincerely. When appropriate. Often. Not as a form of flattery to get what you want. Im betting he is savvier then that anyways.

I'll work on this in all the areas that I can. I will. Thanks.

Blackfoot: Dont tell me how to parse my metaphors. If you dont like my style, (which is treat everyone the same. just like sh!t.) tell me to stay our of your thread. That is a boundary. Put swiss cheese in front of me and Ill slice it and put it on a cracker.

Well, if you want to treat everyone like sh!t, that's your choice. Just know, you get what you give in this life. I didn't feel like you treated me like sh!t. I see that you are blunt in your opinions and I find it fun to challenge you and banter with you. You can parse your metaphors any way you want, and please expect the same in return

Sincerely,
Heather

[Greeneyedlass]

Heather,

I believe this is the comment you were asking me to respond to (Blackfoot: The 5 month sexual drought is your choice heather. You are using his bad behavior as an excuse to 'punish' him. The horse whisper Gel would not approve. )

Ok...I wouldn't accept a 5-mo drought, absolutely not. I would have to agree with BF that a 5-mo drought is your choice, and you do have control over that. It's one thing to stop the action IMPO if it feels like all you are doing is ML to a piece of lumber....it's a completely different issue to flat out not have sex because he won't stay in the bed with you or kiss you while you are ML (two things that are direct results of your A)....that Heather is punishing him for how he feels...whether you intend it as punishment or not, it is. What I won't accept is sex with my H where he makes no effort, where I receive no feedback....and basically, I feel like I might as well be making moves on a (man)nequin....from what you describe, this isn't the case with you and your H...there are just a couple of things he has yet to work past.

If the bed is an issue for him get rid of it and get a new one..just like you should get rid of the truck (I whole-heartedly agree with BF on that). Kissing, as I mentioned to you before is something MANY people view as one of the most intimate acts between two people. Honestly think about this for me....why would he be willing to risk the kind of intimacy you are looking for....when there are constant reminders of what happened around him (i.e. bed & truck)? Step up and get rid of those things that are constant reminders and issues he's brought up. Doing that may be difficult for you, it may very well be really inconvenient for you too....but it's a HUGE gesture on your part that you are really listening to him....and it's something your H really needs to see from you.

I also agree with BF on his comment about committing to the M. You are married....if you half-azzed commit to things...you won't move forward. You are both looking for some sort of guarantee (Your H is looking for a guarantee that you won't do this again and hurt him more, You are looking for a guarantee that things will get better and you two can regain your intimacy). Your H needs to see something tangible to help reassure him (selling that truck would truly help there.), if you can give him something tangible like that as a sign of "Honey I'm willing to do whatever I need to do to rebuild trust" THEN you might begin to see him taking steps back towards you too.

Heather don't half commit to making this work. There is no shame whatsoever in fully-committing to making something work and giving it your all....even if it doesn't work out in the end (which I believe for you two it can). At least by committing fully...you will know YOU have done everything you can.

I know with every fibre of my being that had I half committed to doing what I needed to after I found out what my H was doing....I'd be looking at rental properties right now.

Do you see the difference in these two statements?
#1 "I'm committed to making this marriage work.
&
#2 "I'm committed to making things better." (this is what I hear from you)
One statement sounds confident and like you are willing to do what needs to be done....the other sounds well, wishy-washy, like you have one foot out the door...just in case. I realize myself that I was guilty of half committing to my M when I used to tell my H "I'm here as long as I want to be."....how comforting is that?! It's not. At the time I thought what I was saying would come across to him as "I'm here because I want to be, not because I have to be"....what he heard is "she's going to leave." Just wanted to point out to you the importance of committing fully to making your M work. It makes a huge difference in how things appear to your H too. If I can see the wishy-washiness of committing to "making things better"....so can he (no offense intended), there is no comfort in a statement like that for him.

Heather...your story sounds so very much like another I've heard recently. Only on the other BB I've been trying to help the H work through his anger due to his W's A, which also interestingly enough....involved his truck. Hmmmmmm

Heather....don't push the truck issue. If he doesn't want to ride in it, don't force him. In fact, I would actually suggest getting rid of it; it's obviously a symbol that serves as a constant reminder to you both. Getting rid of that could help symbolize letting that go for both of you. For your H it's no longer there to remind him of your infidelity constantly....for you, it's a symbol of letting go and forgiving yourself as well. I simply cannot see a benefit to keeping it around.

FWIW...on the other BB I post on the guy I mention (who has also asked me to e-mail with his W) is really trying to work through his anger issues regarding his W's A. She apparantly had sex with OM in her H's truck....everyday he sees that truck it just makes him angry all over again.

He is desperate to see something from his W that shows she's committed to their M and that she's truly remorseful for what she's done. Out of curiosity, what have you done to truly show remorse to your H? I'm sure you've probably stated that before, I just don't remember.

GEL

[heatherg]

Blackfoot: Heather, if you can see your way clear to making the needed changes, it is going to take time to get something back from him. I know your LB is empty too.

If you cant, or wont. Move on.
Do what needs to be done. Or say you are unable, or its not worth it.
Your H is not a business problem. He cant be dealt with in the same way you are used to getting things done.

I'm still defining which things I will and will no longer do....this has been such a journey. It has taken me this long to start laying things on the line. To actually start taking some action. I will make some mistakes, pick some battles that I probably should not. I am learning.

Sheila: You've CLEARLY shown you're committed by staying with him through all of the abuse for two years, going to C and continuing to try no matter how punishing he's being. There is NO way to justify your H's behavior.

Thank you Sheila, for acknowledging the difficult aspects of going through this. I appreciate your point of view, as sometimes I find it hard to take this stance for myself because I feel like I'm making myself into a victim. Either that or a stupid, spineless girl who doesn't deserve respect because she hasn't yet figured out how to respect herself.

Sheila: Don't be ashamed to be a strong, vibrant, smart and loving woman.. ever. You shouldnt have to break your back or spirit to be loved, cherished and accepted by you mate.

Again, thank you for being here and taking the time to encourage me on this path.

Burgbud: So far the five months of no sex without kissing seems to be working marginally better than the previous nineteen months with sex on a regular basis. Why is that a false boundary? Heather has said that having sex without kissing followed by H leaving her in the guest bed to go sleep in the marital bed is emotionally painful to her. So she stopped doing it.

That is exactly right. I don't feel like it's false either. Eventually, H will have to change his behavior or I will have an even harder choice to make than choosing no sex for a while.

Chrome: I think her H wanting hot sex is actually more troubling in light of the fact that he doesn't want simple affection. There really should be atmosphere of basic affection in play BEFORE sexual activity occurs. Otherwise a prostitute-mark environment is created. Only by baby stepping her way back into a normal affectionate R can this be broken. Of course, that's JHMO.

I agree Chrome. There are probably some things I would like to rush because of what those 'things' represent. But, you can't get the benefits without the work can you? I guess I was trying to skip over the parts that it seems H will never agree to address if only we could get back to some realm of normalcy. It seems I'd take normalcy over intimacy, at least for now. But you're right, it's probably not the way to go. It would be more of the same in this R.

Sheila: Heather,
Here is the link to Dr. Harley's words on resentment after infidelity:

Thanks for posting that link. That is so what I've been trying to say to H, 'If you want a loving R with me, you cannot act like this'. It doesn't seem to work because he just comes back with 'I don't need a loving R with you, I'm fine with the way things are'. I'm not fine, but that doesn't seem to bother him.

MrsNop, I really, really appreciate your input. My response to your post will be a long one, so I will save it for next time.

Thanks to all.

[Cobra]

Heather,

I’m going to side with Blackfoot and GEL on you getting rid of your truck. But I also want to make the caveat that I do not think getting rid of the truck is necessary. Your situation has become so stuck because the both of you are very stubborn, especially your H. I do not think the truck has anything to do with this. It is just an excuse for your H to hold onto his anger. I would think a good counselor would be able to work through this, but that means you both need to go.

So get rid of the truck if it will help. But I see no reason for you to feel guilty about holding on to it. You didn’t have sex in it. Just because another man sat in it doesn’t make it poisoned. Get rid of it because your H is very immature, small minded and full of anger. One day he will come to see this in himself.

Oh, and one point on Blackfoot’s comments, but I will post on my thread so as not to hijack.

[heatherg]

I was going to mention this in my responding post to MrsNops, but since so many have mentioned getting rid of my truck, I need to respond.

I am not so stubborn that this idea has never occurred to me! I lease my truck, I cannot just 'get rid of it'. I have checked into trading it in and actually looked into it yet again this weekend after I read MrsNops' post. H went with me to a Nissan dealership and we test drove a Pathfinder, the sticker price is about 6k less than the vehicle I drive now. The problem is the trade in value on my truck is crap, no surprise there, dealers never give you what it's worth b/c they need to be able to sell it and make a profit too. But I thought they'd offer me more than they did-I was expecting 20k and they offered 16k. So, in two years, my vehicle has lost half it's value?! Whatever. My payoff is 26k and banks don't carry that much negative equity. I don't have 10k to part with over this. When you lease a vehicle, you pay a lower payment than you do when you buy it and there is a residual value at the end of the lease that you can pay to purchase it or just turn in the keys. Because of the lower payments and the residual value, the monthly payments pay very little toward the vehicle itself and you end up getting stuck with some serious negative equity if you try to turn it over early. The only other option is to try to sell it to a 3rd party for around 22-24k, which I will probably try. That will still stick me with a few grand negative equity, but I'd be willing to accept it if it would get rid of this issue.

[Greeneyedlass]

Heather,

At the very least you showed your H that you were making an effort to take this issue of his seriously. I know Cobra mentioned that this issue with your truck is an excuse for your H to hold onto his anger...and perhaps it is. IMPO though it's better to remove any & all excuses for either of you, so there is no excuse to not move forward.

GEL

[chromosphere]

Heather,

I am at a bit of a loss here as to advice. Feelings are best expressed through actions, words tend to kill the passion of the moment. But maybe this would be a time in which you would be best served talking the truck issue out. In this case, there is TOO MUCH passion involved in the issue, so deflating it through talking might be a good thing. Explain to your H (if you haven't already) that you are willing to get rid of the truck to remove that thorn in your M, but there is the issue of loss of money. Maybe together you can critically look at the effect it will have on your finances and possibly result in changing daily habits for awhile till those finances get back in gear.

JHMO, as usual

Chrome

[heatherg]

MrsNopI was telling NOP about your airport/vehicle scenario and the first thing out of his mouth was, "Why hasn't she sold the vehicle?"

Ok, well, it seems we've addressed that. Like GEL said, at least he knows I've tried. I don't expect that my trying to get a new vehicle and not being able to do it will change his refusal to get in it. Chrome mentions that maybe we should discuss it, but I know H well enough to know that when he says he's not riding in it again, he means it. In this case, my actions in going to the dealership are probably all that I will be able to show, and I can't see him changing his behavior any. So, there we are.

MrsNop: Your choice to go outside of your marriage cannot be justified or mitigated by your husband's actions. If any sense of "I did this but it's partly your fault because of the way you were treating me" is leaking out to your husband, he is going to continue to reject it and you.

I see your point. I take responsibility for my actions, I agree that to do what I did was my choice alone. There was much that led up the A, but none of it 'made me do it'. I never meant to give the impression that I think my A was excused in any way because of the problems we had pre-A. I have a tendency to focus on H's behavior too much, that is frustration in it's most useless form. Yet I have spent a great deal of time there.

MrsNop: You don't need to go all mysterious on him, nor does your desire to "get a life" mean that you ought to go where ever you want without him knowing.

The most mysterious thing I've done was leave and go to a hotel. That probably *seemed* pretty mysterious, but it wasn't. I call if I'm running late and if I have to work late, I call him from my work phone so he knows where I am. I haven't gone out with friends at all since the A was revealed. I go to karate, I get massages and other misc stuff for me that takes a while like getting my hair done or nails, I periodically go shopping, I go for walks. I read and post here. I only use the computer in the living room, he has the password to my email account and I've given him permission to follow me, snoop or check up on me (although I told him I really don't want to know about it, i.e. don't advertise to me that you're doing it). I've also offered my cell phone bills. So, I'm definitely not mysterious.

MrsNop: Your husband is an alcoholic. I don't think you need to keep trying to figure out whether or not he is. Anyone that has that much of a relationship with alcohol meets the criteria.

I suppose. I think I've identified exactly what it is that has continued to bother me about H's drinking, even though it has gotten so much better. I am jealous. Even though he does it less, it is still such a priority. It requires forethought and planning and your use of the word 'relationship' is so accurate. I've never been able to get him to have that kind of R with me. Is that completely insane? Maybe not insane, but at least pathetic

I haven't been able to get myself to go to Alanon. It would take an evening away from the kids, H doesn't even drink as much as he used to, it just seems weird. It seems like I'm overreacting. My H drinks a six pack twice a week and I go running to Alanon? There was probably a time when it could have helped me, but now it would just make me feel stupid. H would surely think it was stupid and it would most certainly cause problems.

MrsNop: Strong gentleness (not grovelling) is required if you choose to enact these plans, not pissiness and not coldness.

I'm getting better at this. I used to get cold and pissy, I'm sure I still do sometimes. Not nearly as much as I used to and I do think H would acknowledge that, which means he's noticed.

MrsNop: If the kids are with hubby, stop being the shadow parent during that time. Grab a book, sewing, cross stitch puzzle - whatever - and join your family in the same room.

This is a great idea. It makes total sense. Thanks.

MrsNop: . I suggest that you decide that you are going to work on this for the next year, and that at the end of that year you will take an assessment and see where things are. But for *this* time period, you are in the marriage, period.

You're right, I've been very undecided and it has affected my ability to be consistent. I have been on the fence so long, I can't remember not being on the fence. I was daydreaming about leaving H long before my A....I've always daydreamed about leaving him to be honest with you. His drinking was flat out too much for me to handle, but yet I stayed anyway. And now, here I am years later still unable to commit to H the way I want to because there is something deep down that just isn't right. To commit for a year is a great theory. Then we talk about moving and the first thought that pops into my head is 'I can't buy a new house with you!'. You get the idea. But I am trying. I know 'trying' isn't always going to cut it. It may not cut it, but it's the best I can do.

MrsNop: See, you think of it as "a few kisses". Your husband is probably convinced that it didn't stop there. I can tell you that I'm a stranger to you and I have a difficult time believing that it didn't go sexual.

I guess I understand your skepticism. I have nothing to lose here, I've been completely honest. Kissing is sexual, I'm not going to say it isn't. It causes a sexual response within one's body. What I want to be very clear about is that there was no fondling, no oral, no sex, no other contact of any kind. Luckily, my H seems to believe me on this, I know I couldn't blame him if he didn't. I can remember a specific instance after the A had been revealed for a few months when we were discussing H's refusal to kiss me and I said 'We didn't have sex' and he said "Thank God!"~each of us were sort of alluding to the idea that H and I would no longer be having sex if I had 'given that away' to OM. So, anyway, my point is that H seems to believe me.

OTOH, I've been honest both here and with H that I don't know how far I *would* have let things get...I told H pretty early on and I don't pride myself that we didn't go that far...in fact I just thank my lucky stars because I clearly wasn't thinking and who knows what I would have done. I'm just glad it got stopped before it went farther. And that's the truth.

Thanks for all your input, I appreciate that you and H taking the time to discuss my circumstances!

[Greeneyedlass]

Heather,

I do believe your H is hanging onto quite a bit of anger/resentment towards you (which he's somehow going to have to let go of....IC). What I wanted to share with you though is my own experience recently of not trusting my H.

I've dug through everything....and have honestly never found anything that would lead me to believe he'd ever physically met up with anyone....and now I do believe he never did meet up with anyone. BUTTTTTTTT....I cannot help my thoughts which are a side-effect of his betrayal of my trust in him. I find myself skeptical of his motives for doing things NOW, I find myself second guessing not going places with him (just so I know that's really what he did), I find myself doing a lot of "but what if he did!!!"...these are thoughts I simply cannot always help, although I can control how I deal with and react to them.

There are many people who believe what my H did in our M wasn't all that bad. There are probably many people who would believe that what you did....really wasn't all that bad either, I mean...you two just kissed, you didn't have sex (is their reasoning). The fact is....it WAS that bad to your H.

No matter what you or my H did....it still cuts to the core of a M. I'm still hurt by what my H did (no doubt there)...but I've absolutely had to let go of the anger to move forward. Obviously I'm still going to have triggers that inwardly send me into a panic, but I deal with them. I talk to my H about them when they happen, so he can deal with them as well....I also talk about them to our MC so she can help my H understand.

Fortunately for me, I'm someone who can talk to other people and get things out....heck I'll talk to a lamp post! Your H needs to do this too (not talk to a lamp post, but talk to someone). I really promote him finding an IC...or the two of you finding a very good MC. You two have got to stop playing games with each other....it's like you are in an emotional tug-o-war, and that's not productive.

GEL

[honeypot]

Heather,
What did I miss?
Why can't you sell the vehicle?

If I were your H, I would have just driven it up to the dealership and taken care of it myself. I think it's ridiculous to have something in your possession that obviously bothers your partner so much. Is that the real reason why you keep it? Because it forces SOME reaction from your H...some indication of how he feels about you?
I know you are desperate to see some romantic emotion from him and I don't blame you.