While he's been away, I've been dealing with running the company and handling the mail (obviously) and the AT&T business phone bill arrived -- which I was looking for -- because we'd had a fight ... well.... a grim discussion... about that. He said he wasn't in contact with her -- I pointed out that I knew for d@mned sure that as soon as the garage door closed that day, he was on the phone to her! "No no no.. he wasn't." So I wrote down the day and time -- and the phone bill came -- and of course; there is the 41-minute phone call to her!
I was so angry I circled the number and time/date in red.... and put the bill with the other bills... So he will see it when he pays the bills... {sigh} It's HARD not losing my temper when he lies and lies and lies!! (I know -- as I said to him -- and will never say again -- adulterers lie their tails off to their spouses; that's a GIVEN!!) (More chanting: it's not my husband, it's an alien. It's NOT my husband, it's an alien!!)
{sigh}
Neo's Wife
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
Well, it started out great! I had put up balloons and a "welcome home H" sign in the garage... He was surprised and pleased - -a bit stiff but glad to be home. He'd shaved his beard -- which I think looks like sh|t! But she liked it {frown}... But I did NOT say anything about it (then...).
He came in and immediately asked where I'd like to sit and talk (which worried me...). I said either bedroom; so we sat and he told me about his trip, the flights, what he'd seen and so on... I managed to be light and friendly. Then he said ... because he thought I'd like to know.. that although I had said I believed they were going to start their physical affair , they had not, THat HE had decided not to, although he'd had the chance -- because he was not willing to have that further deeper bond with her, andthen have to leave her -- it would hurt him even more than he could manage...
He said the first couple days were VERY bad, she was cold and unfriendly -- and he'd even thought of calling the airlines and leaving.. but with patience, he managed to win her back over into total love with him. {sigh} Then, on his way to the airport, she decided (yet again) that *I* had' outed" her -- someone had written her asking if her real name was the same person as the pseudonym she uses in her.. less-than-entirely-savoury... website discussions; and she decided *I* had made that connection public (which I had not). But he said she was insulting him and nasty to him and so on... and told him to contact her when he was finally and completely divorced and not before... (So he was dreadfully depressed -- said he'd even had trouble breathing at the airport...)
But when he told me about the "non-start" of the PA, I was INTENDING to hold my tongue -- I had already told him I was going to pretend she did not even exist in the world -- but then he pushed me about what I thought/felt about it... So I misstepped BIG TIME! I told him I wished I could believe him, but he was a liar multiple times over -- and so I could NOT believe anything he says at all. I pointed out that the phone bill had come, and there it was -- a 41-minute call to her -- JUST as I had said he made an dhe denied ("Oh," he said, "that was BEFORE you left the house. I called her while you were still at home, NOT after the garage door closed." I said: problem: I wrote down the date and time ot check the bill -- AND you didn' t HAVE 41 minutes out of my presence -- remember? I was following you up and down the stairs -- when did you get 41 minutes without me around? He tried to defend himself a bit more -- I said well, perhaps you did call her before I left -- I don't think so, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt -- yet you SWORE up and down you were NOT in contact with her -- and here's the phone bill with her number all over it! So, either way -- you LIED yet again!
Well -- anyway... no sense in rehearsing the whole (hour+-long) argument... Y'all have heard it or been through it yourselves... He objects VERY strongly to being perceived as a liar and a cheat -- so I said then QUIT LYING AND CHEATING!!!
But I did manage, after a while to get control of myself again; and I calmly and gently told him I don't know how we keep getting into this same argument; that Michele says to 'do something different' -- and I am trying to figure out how to break this pattern, but I have not found the path yet.
However (I told him): I AM vowed to pretend the EA/PA doesn't exist; I am going to work even harder at detaching myself from him; I am moving ahead with GAL and the PMA -- which should relieve some pressure on us both. I AM going to go away for a week: I told him I'd been advised to split for a week before he arrived, but I was not ready/willing to do so -- but that I WOULD be doing that soon. I will stop listening in to his conversations (He threatened me with "crippling" if he caught me listening again. I take his threat half-seriously; it was too plastic, too rehearsed -- probably with the lizard -- but I have also notified family and friends, and will probably drop a note to my lawyer -- and let him know I have done so. (He says that so long as I don't eavesdrop I am completely safe.... As I'm sure all batterers insist....) But I am finally getting the point... Snooping only hurts ME!
I will say I am going to snoop a bit longer -- I need to know if this TOO is more plotting between them. Having confirmed that, I will ...
Oh hell-- and there it is: he just wrote her .. Well, that's that!
Sad sad Neo's Wife...
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
Ok, so long as your entire focus is on this affair and this woman, and trust me, reading your posts, it IS, you will not make progress. Also, I don't think the idea is to pretend the affair/OW doesn't exist. The idea is to get to a point where you understand your role in it, which is nil, and then accept your total lack of control in the situation, turning then to what you CAN control, YOU.
I understand that you have some unique circumstances in your sitch, and frankly this new "threat" seems to be something I VERY unsettled by, but the basic fact that you are consumed by HIS actions and not your own, bothers me.
Quote: ... you understand your role in it, which is nil, and then accept your total lack of control in the situation, turning then to what you CAN control, YOU.
Oh I absolutely understand my role in it.. My friends and family are harassing (well, strongly advising) me that I am NOT to blame -- however I agree with him that I did NOT meet my commitment to him to lose weight and ameliorate my demeanor... I was derelict in being lazy and not working hard enough (I mean really -- I had EIGHT YEARS! to make change, and I made slow, small, and not-even-steady changes...) His complaint against me is valid. Would I WISH he would love me as I am? Of course -- but I knew going in that he was not capable of that. It's a part of him I accepted when we married... and just... {shrug} didn't do enough soon enough.
(Okay, yes, he CHOSE to get involved with her, rather than work on the marriage, I'm not to blame for that... but I am in great part to blame for him falling out of love with me... I accept that, I acknolwedge it, and I do a decent job of beating myself up about sometimes... But I accept it as MY part in all this.)
Quote: frankly this new "threat" seems to be something I VERY unsettled by, but the basic fact that you are consumed by HIS actions and not your own, bothers me.
I'm a bit unsettled by it too. Sometimes I believe him, sometimes I think it was staged... I've let my family and friends know of his threat -- I'm going to send a note to my lawyer. Then I will let my H know I have done so.
But I am trying to be NOT consumed by his actions... It's hard.
NW
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
Hi Neo's Wife, What I am seeing and what I think GH might be alluding to in his message to you is not just about the past and not just about how you didn't fulfill your promises/contract of your marriage. You said
Quote: Oh I absolutely understand my role in it.. My friends and family are harassing (well, strongly advising) me that I am NOT to blame -- however I agree with him that I did NOT meet my commitment to him to lose weight and ameliorate my demeanor... I was derelict in being lazy and not working hard enough (I mean really -- I had EIGHT YEARS! to make change, and I made slow, small, and not-even-steady changes...) His complaint against me is valid.
It's good to identify your role in the demise of the marriage. But, this sounds like you are beating yourself up, for failures you believe you have made, and I do not see that helping you grow, change, and become who you truly want to be NOW. This is not about his perception of you. This is about your perception of you. Are you happy? You don't sound happy to me. Are you healthy? Do you look in the mirror and love who you see? What are you going to do about it, so that you will be happier and more fulfilled, regardless of what Neo thinks or says or does?
From a previous post earlier in the day, I read:
Quote: However (I told him): I AM vowed to pretend the EA/PA doesn't exist; I am going to work even harder at detaching myself from him; I am moving ahead with GAL and the PMA -- which should relieve some pressure on us both. I AM going to go away for a week: I told him I'd been advised to split for a week before he arrived, but I was not ready/willing to do so -- but that I WOULD be doing that soon. I will stop listening in to his conversations (He threatened me with "crippling" if he caught me listening again. I take his threat half-seriously; it was too plastic, too rehearsed -- probably with the lizard -- but I have also notified family and friends, and will probably drop a note to my lawyer -- and let him know I have done so. (He says that so long as I don't eavesdrop I am completely safe.... As I'm sure all batterers insist....) But I am finally getting the point... Snooping only hurts ME!
I will say I am going to snoop a bit longer -- I need to know if this TOO is more plotting between them. Having confirmed that, I will ...
This disturbed me GREATLY. Why are you telling your goals to him? Are you seeking his approval? Your goals are for YOU. Stop talking about them, and start living them. Stop telling him, and start telling YOU and acting on what you say. It is a bonus if your H ever notices that you have changed. But talking about it, telling him, doesn't get the job done. You actually have to take the actions, make the changes in your behavior, do the work, and grow. Keep your word with YOU. Then if he notices it is gravy. You make the changes because you will feel better, be healthier and happier. You do it for you. But the last part in particular really disturbed me. You said you would not snoop, and then you immediately snooped. Upon threat of physical violence. You did not control yourself. There is no excuse for abuse or even threats of abuse. But can you see that you are provoking this man? You know your behavior isn't acceptable. And then you showcase your unacceptable behavior, taunt him with it, flaunt it in front of him, and act justified and "right" and argue for an hour about it. Are you a masochist seeking negative responses? If you want an opportunity for ANY KIND of amicable R with your H, I suggest you detach IMMEDIATELY and if you can't manage that in his presence then get out of there. Seriously, Neo's Wife. Time to put your words into action, no foolin'.
With that said, I want you to know that I realize how hard this can be. It is not easy to make changes, especially if the patterns are deeply engrained. However you have a great opportunity here. Start giving yourself a life you can love. What kind of resources are you making available to yourself, for your personal growth and well being? There are some great books out there, or how about an IC or a 12-step program. Because I see addictive destructive behavior here, and I encourage you to take steps now to stop.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
Quote: Are you happy? You don't sound happy to me. Are you healthy? Do you look in the mirror and love who you see? What are you going to do about it, so that you will be happier and more fulfilled, regardless of what Neo thinks or says or does?
I am actually happy -- despite my pain and sorrow and fears/apprehension for my future -- I'm basically a happy person. IF we end up divorced, I will suffer great pain and loss, and then get over it and carry on with my life -- and likely find a new husband at some point... That's my view of life -- it's all lessons we go through, and some are extremely hard and painful, and some are light and lovely... Right now, I'm learning a very hard, very painful (and seemingly very long) lesson, but I'm doing my best to LEARN it so I can go on to the next one. I HOPE the next one will be recovering and creating a new marriage with him. If not, well, I find out what it will be when it arrives ("no wine before it's time" and all ... or is that no WHINE before it's time? )
Quote: This disturbed me GREATLY. Why are you telling your goals to him? Are you seeking his approval? Your goals are for YOU. Stop talking about them, and start living them. Stop telling him, and start telling YOU and acting on what you say. It is a bonus if your H ever notices that you have changed. But talking about it, telling him, doesn't get the job done. You actually have to take the actions, make the changes in your behavior, do the work, and grow. Keep your word with YOU. Then if he notices it is gravy. You make the changes because you will feel better, be healthier and happier. You do it for you.
I am negotiating with him, a bit desperately, because I wish him to stay ALIVE until he can notice my changes. He and I spent most of yesterday lying together on the couch watching movies (I'm talking, like, 8 hours!) and again today, after breakfast and some housecleaning and all, we were back on the couch watching some more movies (our Blockbuster guy let us rent twelve movies, even though the limit is nine)!
After one (I got a bunch of chick flicks, which lately he enjoys and make him tear up...) we turned the TV off and talked for about an hour... He told me WAY more than he had about his visit with the lizard, and why she is just unsatisfactory, and he's baffled why he fell so hard and so completely, and how she is entirely unsuitable -- and not , as he had expected, a turn-on for him -- which baffles him more still! And we discussed the emptiness he feels, and I again (as I always do -- gee, guess that calls for a 180!), discussed the possiblity of him taking anti-depressants -- and he almost considered it, then rejected it again... (But that's WAY closer than I 've gotten him before!)
Anyway... discussing MY views, my goal -- and he says he DOES recognize the changes I've already made in relating to him -- the question he has is should he /CAN he "wait" -- he WOULD like to fall back in love with me, but is trying to work out ... wayposts ... to keep him alive. Right now there is the cruise in July. And then a very dear friend has said he would like to come visit in September, so H THINKS he can make it till then; that his visit would be a goal worth hanging on for. I said we can go with that, that far -- and he can watch and see if I begin to meet my commitments, which may give him enough hope to continue beyond.
He also was still disturbed because I had said, the night he returned home, that one of the things *I* was strugglnig with was if Michele's techniques worked, and he turned back toward me -- would *I* want him back? COULD I get over the hurt and anger and resentment? That I was trusting what I had read here on the forum, that yes, the LBS CAN get over it and the marriage can be strengthened and saved, and so I was trusting to that -- but that right now, in my pain, I was just not sure. He said today that he COULD not "go on" with the slim slight hope that I could become his love once again, if after waiting and hoping, it turned out I could not take him back. (I pointed out that even now, in the midst of my pain and anger and resentment, I STILL can't resist him -- that even as he is out of love with me, and in love with someone else, and all -- I am stil engaging in sexual behaviour with him, I am still living with him and hoping to recover my marriage -- so there really is no fear that we would come out the other side and I would NOT wish to stay... He seemed to take comfort in that, and I hope will continue to allow me to change without losing all hope and killing himself.)
Now, we ALSO had a lovely talk after the next movie (with the special feature playing at real low volume; neither of us watching) about our (actual!) lovemaking the night before. We had bought some cabernet (which he discovered while in England, he could get drunk (or buzzed) on, without the ill effects on him that booze normally has). (I say "actual" lovemaking because with one exception -- a month+ ago -- we've not had sex in 8 YEARS!)
Anyway, I/he got him buzzed, and I ... sorry, let me try not to be too graphic... after I performed some oral sex on him, he asked if I want to ride him. (!!) YIPPEE! So, let me just say we had a lovely lovely interlude and it was wonderful for us both, and afterwards I lay with my head on his chest for about a half-hour, and then since he was going to sleep (he's still sleeping in the guest bedroom) I kissed him and as I got up he said: "I love you." (!!) And I said "I love you too dear heart!"
Sorry it's graphic -- but it's also SO FAR out of normal! (Yes, I know -- expect an immediate, or shortly-to-come, withdrawal... And that's okay -- I have had my shot of hope to last me for a while yet!) (I did also tell him in our discussion today that I had told my family, and my lawyer, about his threat to 'cripple' me. We discussed that because I said it appeared fakey and staged, and I felt that he had practiced it with the lizard.. He claims not -- but since I am not believing anything I hear, I don't need to believe him or not on it -- so it's no matter.)
Okay, so our talk a few hours ago was me describing how much pleasure he'd brought me, and he was so delighted to be able to bring me pleasure -- and well, it was NOT a discussion such as we have had in eight years!! I think, in some important ways, this is another turning point -- even if he backslides... She and he have apparently agreed NOT to be in contact at all for the next two years -- hell of a break for me, eh?!)
Quote: But the last part in particular really disturbed me. You said you would not snoop, and then you immediately snooped. Upon threat of physical violence. You did not control yourself.
Correct. I justify it (or is that rationalize it?) that I MUST have the truth to base my views on. If I begin to believe him again -- and clearly, as you've read above, I AM -- I MUST know whether or not this is more playing me or actually his position...
Quote: There is no excuse for abuse or even threats of abuse. But can you see that you are provoking this man? You know your behavior isn't acceptable. And then you showcase your unacceptable behavior, taunt him with it, flaunt it in front of him, and act justified and "right" and argue for an hour about it. Are you a masochist seeking negative responses?
No I just screwed up... The night he came home, I forgot to deal with him as a liar and a man in MLC -- I thought I COULD tell him the truth and we'd negotiate and deal with it... BIG mistake. One I will not make again!
Quote: If you want an opportunity for ANY KIND of amicable R with your H, I suggest you detach IMMEDIATELY and if you can't manage that in his presence then get out of there. Seriously, Neo's Wife. Time to put your words into action, no foolin'.
I've done extremely well since the first night he came home at being light and breezy, detached and lovingly kind... I've managed with only one or two exceptions to offer him nothing -- but to be responsive to his requests. I am not following him up and down the stairs, but am doing my own thing in the house whether he's in the room or not.
We've had calm and comfortable interactions, including more sexual contact than just the one above (I note that -- because until the lizard appeared in our lives we were having no sexual contact of any sort for years... NOW, we are! Now, he's being more honest and open about his desires,and so am I. Now, we're interacting like a married couple (go figure!!)
Quote: With that said, I want you to know that I realize how hard this can be. It is not easy to make changes, especially if the patterns are deeply engrained. However you have a great opportunity here. Start giving yourself a life you can love. What kind of resources are you making available to yourself, for your personal growth and well being? There are some great books out there, or how about an IC or a 12-step program. Because I see addictive destructive behavior here, and I encourage you to take steps now to stop.
Thank you for the advice -- which I AM heeding -- and to the best of my ability (well, almost), following! I see a change in my 'connection' with him already. I'm no longer relying on him as my main source of companionship and friendship; I'm pulling back from total reliance on him. I'm making the changes I mentioned somewhere above: NOT helping, NOT mommying, NOT speaking without thought (as much as I can, I still slip up -- but I'm much better!)
I'm spending some time tonight reading here on the forum -- because I need repeated reminders to NOT slip into believing today's/this weekend's lovely occurances mark a significant change in his state. This is merely a wonderful and warm 'step-out' from his craziness, and I must brace myself for the return of the alien (gee, maybe the alien only works weekdays?! That'd be a joy!)
NW
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
He was falling asleep on the couch (still on England time) and when the show "we" were watching ended, we headed down to the bedrooms. In the guest bedroom, I hugged him and said sleep well, and he said, "Aren't you going to stay in here with me?" And I said "yes of course, if you wish; let me go put on my PJs." So I shut down the house and came to his bed, and he rolled over so he could hold my hand (already most of the way asleep)...
He had a hard night -- and so did I... My back is killing me from 20+ hours on the couch watchin' movies; and some nights his prostate lets him sleep through, and some nights not! But if I rolled away, he'd move over to me, and vice versa...
I am ... disciplining my thoughts... to expect a sea-change in his attitudes, and to continue my detachment and GAL (off to the Y in 2 hours!)... I am NOT believing what he says, (well, completely: let's say I am not basing any decisions or choices on his words!!)
I will say I am dreading her contacting him again and disrupting his ... mental withdrawal from her, if such it actually is... But maybe she won't -- and I can't control it anyway, and it may all be part of his/their plan to convince me they're broken up and, and, and... no point in thinking about it -- just do my OWN thing(s) and keep looking for 180s and PMA!
NW
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
I've been very good at being sweet and kind,(mostly) not bringing up relationship talk, the OW, his lying, or anything else negative... HE is talking about her a lot more -- what he did with her on the visit, how he is feeling about her -- and how he is sadly becoming sure she cannot work out for him... (I take this with a HUGE grain of salt -- in fact a shaker-full of salt! -- but he is being quite open about a lot of things he wasn't open about before.)
(We did have another bit of a discussion about how he does not want to be perceived as a liar... but I won't and can't budge on that. I am not calling him a liar, but I'm NOT willing to "pretend" (as he actually asked!) that he is not and has not been lying! Howver I do not bring it up, nor call him on his lies... I've even managed to keep my dubious or disgusted look off my face (or, since I'm not sure I'm that good a poker face, I turn my face away...)
And HE has been much more open about his unhappiness about how the OW will not work out... He has been much more affectionate with me, and has even said he is sort-of willing to try to recreate our marriage, but not until I lose weight. He thought Michaele's idea of "not the old marriage but a new one," was a good idea.
He has said that he is sort-of over his deep, deep depression he suffered for the couple weeks after he came home (missing her and unhappy with how it went with her). He's sad, but because he knows she loves him, he's able to stay reasonably balanced and focused on catching up on work. (The strong addiction has worn off he says, but he still needs to know she loves him so feel has a sense of being loved -- MY love no longer does that for him.)
He DID say, however, that the visit made clear to him my good qualities -- esp. my constancy in love with him (which he most desperately needs, he says). She vacillates between loving him and seemingly not loving him... She insults and abuses him; ( I expressed my dismay and repulsion that she would would insult and humiliate him -- that to me his 'dignity' was to be observed no matter how angry I get at him. She does not seem to care about his dignity or his soul...)
He said there was a serious withdrawal/depression with her refusng contact (because she's an insane paranoid, convinced I mean her harm). But over the couple weeks he has adjusted and felt reasonably well with no contact.
He has said he's done with lying (to me, not to her as she requires "managing" to keep her from blowing a gasket!), and really regrets very much 'going along' with some of the lying and plotting she instigated... It's "out of his character" (he says) and made him feel bad (and resulted in bad results in his day-to-day life with me!) I was feeling very positive, and hopeful -- perhaps he was telling me the truth about his accepting that it cannot possibly work with her (he admits, with detailed descriptions of how it went when he was there, that there really doesn't seem to be anyway he would be able to live with her... The week with her really made that clear.) (Do I believe him? I don't know.)
The problem with THAT is, she has written him, and he has written her back in an email account I'm not supposed to know about. So, he's STILL lying to me. And then she actually phoned and left him a message to please call her (when, of course, he could assure her I was nowhere around; in fact,she asked him to leave the house and call her from out... Did I mention she's paranoid?) -- which upset him -- because he REALLY did not want to talk to her: both because it might be painful to re-establish contact and then have her cut him off again;, and because every phonecall from her has been her blowing a gasket and him having to maneuver and manage and .. well... he just says there is no sense of delighted anticipation at calling her -- just apprehension and a bit of dread. He even got drunk that evening (with my help ) to avoid thinking about it.
He called her the next day and she had set up another email account for him so she could reach him if she wants without me knowing... Amazingly -- he TOLD me this! (Not where or anything, but that she had done this. He expressed concern that it means she will want to re-establish contact -- and yet *I* know about the hidden emailing... (Only a couple of emails, and she mentioned that she wasn't supposed to contact him.)
But now, with this new account, I'm concerned they will re-establish constant contact..
So -- I am re-dedicating myself to NOT believing him, no matter his wonderful loving and his kind words... I have not stopped, anyway, working on myself (I'm down 4 pounds in the last two weeks -- he's proud of that too!) but I was allowing myself to have a greater sense of hope that he might indeed be returning....
We had a long (quiet and calm) discussion of his desire to go 'rent' an escort... to talk to mainly, he says, but, yes have sex with it it works out that way... I have VERY strong feelings, but managed to keep my conversation calm and express my dismay and ... probable unwillingness... to accept that action on his part.
We negotiated a 'deal' that he won't commit suicide OR go chase escorts until at least his birthday (early Oct) -- so that I can continue to show him I am serious about my changes. So, I am not stressing (much) about the continued contact (despite SO SO SO wanting to slam him with what I know!) and am working on myself and being gentle and happy with him.
He says, (and has said all along) that I have the foundations of a much greater beauty that the OW; it's just covered over by my weight. So, that's both nice to hear and a positive sign. (Baby steps! YAY!)
It's all disconcerting. I DID manage to NOT snoop on his phone call with her...
NW
My thread is under the Infidelity/Adultery section and is called Mea Maxima Culpa -- but I can't get the link to work.
Quote: And HE has been much more open about his unhappiness about how the OW will not work out... He has been much more affectionate with me, and has even said he is sort-of willing to try to recreate our marriage, but not until I lose weight. He thought Michaele's idea of "not the old marriage but a new one," was a good idea.
What does your weight have to do with your marriage? That seems like a real ballsy statement for the WAH to make. If YOU believe you need to lose weight...okay. But if it's just something to do to get him back I think it's a very insulting thing for him to demand.
HOW do you keep yourself quiet? I wish i could manage that. The info I have just bubbles up and wants so badly to escape, to be thrown in his lying face... HOW do you do it?
)
we were having no sexual contact of any sort for years... NOW, we are! Now, he's being more honest and open about his desires,and so am I. Now, we're interacting like a married couple (go figure!!)