Positively new thread - how do you deal with this?

[RBinBR]

PL, I think you are doing things well. I would flat out ask him if he's going to give you "the speech" again, because you don't want to go if he is. Anyway, what I would try to do emotionally is remember that it isn't really your anniversary, because you really don't have a marriage relationship anymore. My W completely forgot about ours (what a surprise) and I was very glad that I had only gotten her a gag gift. Best of luck on your trip!

[Mamabear]

PL, I definitely like the plan B alternative. You know what? This is now all about you and if you are not comfortable, then exit. No apologies, no explanations, just leave. Maybe check to see if there might be another room available. Therefore you can pick up your stuff and leave but still enjoy the comforts of a hotel. Just remember to take care of yourself and your happiness, do not leave that in the hands of your spouse or anyone else for that matter.

You are a VERY strong and smart woman, you WILL be ok!!!

[grasshopper]

PL, you are doing fine. Just do what you want, realize that it's your choice and if things are not going the way you want, then excuse yourself and do something else. It's that simple. I really believe that.

GH

[always_14]

WOW! You are really taking a new and bold approach with your addressing H and addressing shame. Good for you.

Just be careful with H right now. He has to work through things, and telling him his shame does not fit into your picture is hard, b/c it IS what he's feeling and needs to work through on his own. I love how you're bold, but bring out your gentle side too.

See, the personal development activities that you and H shared in your M and you are now talking of again is where YOU are leaps and bounds above OW. He married you not just b/c of physical connection, but the DEEP emotional connection that comes with talking about ourselves, our growth, our dreams and vision. NO ONE can beat that. I believe that. If it's the way he wants to live again, only you understand that.

I like how you're weaving his MLC into the tapestry of his life, part of the development, like it's a part of growing up, instead of this huge marital drama. That's wonderful, and you being his loving friend, not hus hurt W.

I do agree you should have a Plan B to jet. Remember, it keeps to your view of the M, detaching, and just living life fully now, and the new PL!

Have fun, but on your terms!

[PositivelyListening]

WARNING - AS USUAL (SORRY) A VERY LONG POST WITH A LOT IN IT, IS COMING UP

Dear friends, Today is our 6th anniversary. It is also wonderfully coincidentally, the day my H became a naturalized citizen of the US. So kind of a big day all the way around. I admit to an emotional rollercoaster, but one that I believe that I somehow managed masterfully despite my screaming inner voice from the "old way of being".

I had agreed in May to provide a memorable citizenship day for H, when he agreed to postpone it at that time due to D24's graduation. I think it's a big deal to become a citizen, (of course I like to make fanfare for most things!) and H does not get that he matters much (in the world, let alone with me) yet H seemed to appreciate that I wanted to make it special for him and agreed to the postponement so I could go with him and make it special. As weeks went by, it was touch and go about whether it would be rescheduled on a day I would be here and not travelling for work, and for me it was even touch and go about whether I would last in my M being pleasant and amiable with continuing contact long enough to get there. Somehow it all worked out. I planned the hotel, which was unbelievably good planning on my part, the hotel was adjacent to the ceremony hall by walking, and we got the king size view room suite with the down comforters marble bath etc. for a remarkable low rate. I got little american flag gifts, had flowers ordered to be delivered to H in the room (red roses, blue delphineum, white baby's breath). I got champagne and little desserts to enjoy upon arrival. And although "sweets" are a traditional 6th anniversary choice, that was a secret as I decided after much forethought to NOT even mention that it was our anniversary unless H brought it up.

Well, H definitely brought it up. H mentioned it a BUNCH of times. Got sentimental and nostalgic with me - wanted to know what I thought we had accomplished during the past 6 years, big review of our life together. H also asked me an interesting question - he wanted to know whether our years together had gone slow or fast for me. I said really fast. He said, it wasn't that fast for him - not slow at all, but "medium." I have no idea what that means, but I have been thinking about it. I think H & I do move at different paces, and process information at different paces. And I tend to be the "fast one", very active, and quick to "get it and move on" so then I need to remember to be present to the fact that H is not moving at my pace, and not to get frustrated or make him wrong. So how we experience time going by may be directly related to the pace we move at in life, and when facing problems also. Not earth shattering, but interesting to me, and maybe helpful as I continue to navigate these waters.

So H was into being with me, more so than any time in the past two months. Held my hand spontaneously many times, petted my leg, ended up with several lip kisses (small ones, but sweet and no turned head this time), very cuddly, spooning with me through the night, and several "come here"'s and holding me close when I was too far away. ALL NIGHT LONG. Well, I loved it. So nice. Tried not to make any of it "mean" anything but I think I did jump forward at least a bit. Between the three phone calls H initiated while I was away last week, then the 4th "breakthrough" phone call last Friday when we both cried, then the airport pick up and visit... well, I thought to myself, H is slowly moving back towards me... maybe OW's hold is weakening? Well, I found out, maybe mine is just strengthening with H, but it is still in the face of "no agreement".

This morning the citizenship thing was awesome. All these immigrants from all over the world taking oaths and pledging allegiance - it was really inspirational. Some highlights - we got to walk "next door" while the majority of all of the other 3512 new citizens and their families had to deal with traffic and parking and a much longer walk. We got there early so H was up in row three from the stage, and I had a seat the whole time in the guest section (which I was so grateful for, as our section was over flowing standing room only soon after we arrived). H text messaged me back and forth several times and it was really really sweet. Text messaging is normally his realm with OW. I may not be the 19 texts per day person in his life right now, but I got 4 in an hour (who's comparing, I know!) But I liked it you know, we were "together" in a way we hadn't been in a long while, and it was really sweet. Last one, he texted me and said he had paper work to fill out, he would "be a while". Told me I could go back to the hotel for breakfast if I didn't want to wait. (Are you kidding! Who leaves before the end? Of anything? lol at myself) I texted him back and said I would wait for him forever. Then texted again, "How long exactly would that be? Smile" When he came out of the ceremony, I waved my little flags in the crowd for him, my new citizen H, and instead of taking the laid out path for all of the people exiting, he asked people to part the seas and we embraced publicly and it was really really nice, and sweet and romantic as far as I am concerned and I loved it. So we had a good time, over night and morning.

OK, here's the poopy, not as good part. For some reason, I just COULD NOT (or would not) avoid R talk any longer. My mind was going fruitcakes at breakfast time. I told H last week that I wanted to create a new possibility with him for our marriage, that I was committed to an extraordinary life and marriage together. When I spoke to him about creating a possibility for our marriage on that call, H said "Yes, I want to do that too". But basically, our convos over and over are just good DBing on my part - nice and pleasant and fun, I am. H is all that too, but not intimate with his thoughts and feelings. And it seemed like he was acting like he wanted more of what I've got. He's been warming up, right? But I just needed to know - is H patronizing me because it's our anniversary and he feels guilty, or is OW less important to him now, is he still on the fence about us, blah blah blah. OK, not good DBing perhaps, but a much needed reality check for me. However, is what H says reality? I dunno but I doubt it.

I guess this convo mostly informed me about what I am still up against, and it was a reminder not to get complacent or attached. H basically said the same thing he said last time (about 1 month ago) - that he needs to explore the R with OW, that he can't control his feelings for her, that he has to do this for him, instead of doing what other people always want him to do (MLC stuff right?). I (foolishly, I know) asked how long he wanted to stay married to me this way? He said "ending our marriage sounded awfully permanent" but that he couldn't exactly put a time limit on his feelings. OK, I did not push that (although I WANTED TO PUT A TIME LIMIT ON IT!) I said, becuase it seems like you like spending time with me. And he says, YES, I do like spending time with you! (WTH, is he never going to tire of living in two worlds?) He said he is happy and he likes his life right now. (you know, I hate that the most!! Why can't he be miserable without me. Damn it) Well, not much of this was what I wanted to hear. Nonetheless, not surprised, and you know, at least he talked, and he was certainly kind. I wish I could say I remembered to thank him for telling me, or that I acknowledged his honesty, but I didn't. However, I didn't react too badly. But I did end up telling H a few things that I thought he needed to hear (or at least that I needed to say). I told him that I was beginning to "get offers of attention" and while that was not the direction I wanted to go, that I am lonely. He raised eyebrows (in surprise?) when I said that. I told him that I was not sure if he would be able to "hear" some of what I had to say, but that I needed to tell him. I requested that he look really hard at the damage the R with OW was causing. I told him that I thought there was something that he needed to get about OW that he hadn't seen yet, and I asked him to look hard for it now, as time was going by fast. I told him that I cared about him deeply, more than I think he realizes. And I told him that regardless of what happens in our M, that I was very concerned for him about his R with OW, that I thought it was destructive. He said "You mean, destructive for the marriage" (like a fact, not a question) and I said "no, destructive not just for our marriage but also for all of the people who had been hurt, our girls, his son, and also for him. That he could lose everything over this. And that I didn't want to see that happen to him. Tears welled up when I spoke. Then I said, "This is risky, but I am going to say it anyway. No good can come from a R that is based on being out of integrity. No good can come from it. This is not just something that we spout in our personal growth seminars we have taken together. This is how life works. OW is like a drug. It is a fantasy, it is not real. It is wonderful to spend occasional fun weekends with her, I'm sure that feels great, but it is not real life. She does not live in your real, every day life. OW is like a drug, she is your heroin." Believe it or not, he thanked me for sharing this with him (I guess he did better than I in this regard). He did not seem upset or angry. Even with this rather emotional interchange over breakfast, we actually recovered quickly, he said he expected we would need to talk today, that it was to be expected, and we had a pleasant remainder of the day. We went to the pool for a swim, spent some time with D at her new house, helped her move some furniture and then had a lovely lunch by the ocean and a stroll, before driving home along the coast at sunset.

However, I spent much of the remainder of the day today trying to figure out what I wanted to do about what H had said about our R. I pretty much decided I did not want to do anything about it today, because I was definitely processing a lot of emotion, pain, anger, fear, rejection. Feeling taken for granted, blah blah. It caused me to pull back a fair amount, so I was much quieter and more reflective the later part of today than I had been yesterday or early this am. I went through being angry, frustrated, wanting to cut H out, give an ultimatum, etc. etc. yada yada. The remarkable part about this is, I do not think H was very aware of what I was processing. But perhaps he was. D was, of course. I am usually an outgoing bubbly person. I was reflective, a bit subdued, preoccupied.

Maybe the fact that I managed myself well, did not have any other emotions expressed today, enjoyed the sunset and meal, etc. but quietly, allowed H some time to think too. He took me by the beach where we had our first date, and mentioned the spot. Took my hand in the car. Etc. A fair amount of sweet reminiscing. Internally, I was all over the map. I thought it might be the last time I ever saw him, etc. Close to tears a few times. etc. But nothing going on for H to see. Just being with myself. Maybe this is what H was doing all the time in our M, and I never knew. Wow, poor guy. That is a lot of work, that is!

On the way home, H acknowledged me and thanked me for making it such a special 24 hrs. He loved it, said it was really memorable, asked a lot of detailed questions (did I special order the flowers, etc.) I think this was all new territory for H, to be doted upon at that level, especially in the face of what is happening in our sitch. I think it worked in my favor despite the reveals about the OW (which frankly are old news and to be expected, right?).

Before leaving tonight, I tried one last thing. I had been silent, so much of the drive. We have a friend who was at our wedding, who believes "marriage is sacred" and who offered to me to meet with H and I to "get said whatever needs to get said, without judgement" so we can move on and create a new possibility for our M. He has been involved for years in the same seminars and personal growth work that we have. So, I asked H if he would be willing to do that. He said he would like to think about it for a bit, and think about what he would want to say. I said OK. But that did open up a conversation about the seminar on relationships that I am in, and H expressed an interest in coming as a visitor with me, and also perhaps taking the next seminar series when it starts. (That is good news! Our R was at it's best when we were participating in that growth work together. That gave me A LOT of hope). He seems VERY open to conversations about that, and seems inspired by what I am sharing about what I am learning (and also about the changes he is seeing in me, I suspect.) I am grateful for that. Our ride ended on a good note.

When H dropped me off, me still being relatively quiet, he told the cat to take good care of me as he was saying goodbye. Cute, funny. But, H seemed sad to be leaving me, maybe even concerned about me. Then he asked me if I had a ride to the airport on Sunday for my work trip, but in the same breath asked me to think good thoughts for him because he has so much work to do in the next 4 days. He seemed worried. I told him I could get a ride, no problem, and that I know he'd do fine with his work. (WHOOPS!) Caught that in my head 10 minutes later. Called him on the cell, told him that I felt I had dismissed his concerns, and that I didn't want to do that. That of course he would do fine, but that I got how hard he was working, how stressful and scary that was for him at times, and that I really appreciated everything he did, how hard he works, etc. and what he does to contribute. So, I told him I knew he would do fine, but I told him I wanted him to know that I heard him and that I got it. He REALLY appreciated that I told him that. Then he asked me to call him before I leave, please? OK, if you want me to

I need to work on this words of affirmation thing. It's H's primary LL, and I am sloppy about it. I think he knows, but he doesn't! I need to tell him I appreciate him, a lot. Mental note to self, until some day I hope, it comes more naturally. No wonder H wasn'r getting his needs met. I am sloppy and make assumptions (that he already knows) when it's his primary LL!!

SO. Let's see. I am not as patient as I appear to be, but that's OK as long as you guys are the only ones that know And I need to work on making Words of Affirmatiom for H second nature. I think I had a pretty fun anniversary considering where our R is at. I think there is progress being made, even if H says he has to continue to pursue OW. I can walk any time now, so what the hell? So every day I get value and hang in there is golden.

BTW, SIL is now aware of our sitch. I offered no details, but with her questions "I REALLY need to understand what s going on with you guys" I told her that H has gotten "tangled up" in something (which explained his solo trips to Germany, not visiting family while there, etc), and I am hoping and praying he will get untangled and come home soon. She wanted to know if I was certain, had he told me? And I said yes, he told me in January, and that it has been very hard, but that I am still committed to our M. I feel really good that I spoke with her this way. Not too much info, but the truth. They are planning to come see us (I hope!) and I want this R healthy for me. I love my SIL and H's whole family. So I feel much better about that now. It will be interesting however, if it gets back to H, as he has continued to lie and/or withhold with all of them regarding the true nature of our sitch. Somehow, however, I think that is good too that he is trying to protect the image of us together. He tells them "I need to check with PL about that" I believe somewhere in H's heart he knows I am the one. Here's hoping he finds that buried truth once again (and sooner rather than later would be my preference )

New strategies may be in order here. I am trying to get my bearings about that. At least I threw in some mystery a few times in our convos. Maybe H will start being curious or start wondering why he cares about what I'm doing? H invited me to attend a play (3 hours away) with him in August. A play he thinks I will really like (and I'm sure I will) Geez, that sounds like an overnight trip. I told him the play sounded very interesting and fun. Then I thought later, maybe I should decline. Then I thought again, I would LOVE it if OW starts finding out H is spending quality time with me because he WANTS to. Maybe she'll give him a hard time I'm not sure I can pass that up. Of course, maybe he doesn't tell her a lot of stuff either. Also, H talked about a new car for me non-stop this trip. H really wants to buy me a new car. (Thank goodness this has not dropped off his radar, my car is an 87 and almost a beater now) OK, so if I turn into my H's kept woman at some point, will that mean I get to get laid?

Please y'all, tell me what you see. I suppose everything H is doing could be motivated from guilt only, but I'm not sure if that's the case, or if that would be all bad. I am enjoying the niceties, although I admit I have to work on myself really hard not to want more. Sometimes it's just a tease, you know?

Meanwhile, I am grateful to be home, in my own bed, with my own kitty and doggie, for one more day before I leave for another week long work trip. Maybe just my trips make H miss me enough, and I don't have to do anything else more dramatic? Right now, despite the occasional emotional rollercoaster, I feel like I am doing great and I love my life. It's just that there's this little nagging partially missing person that I love to love, my H.

Well?

[RBinBR]

PL, keep up the confidence. I like the fact that you seem to be in charge of your life now. I think that your H is seeing your energy and zest for life and is feeding off of it in his interaction with you.

If I were you, though, I'd try to bite my tongue the next time you want to do an R talk. Also, be careful in telling him that he's hooked on a drug and that it isn't real. We may know this, but he may feel patronized hearing it from you.

However, I spent much of the remainder of the day today trying to figure out what I wanted to do about what H had said about our R. I pretty much decided I did not want to do anything about it today, because I was definitely processing a lot of emotion, pain, anger, fear, rejection. Feeling taken for granted, blah blah. It caused me to pull back a fair amount, so I was much quieter and more reflective the later part of today than I had been yesterday or early this am. I went through being angry, frustrated, wanting to cut H out, give an ultimatum, etc. etc. yada yada. The remarkable part about this is, I do not think H was very aware of what I was processing. But perhaps he was. D was, of course. I am usually an outgoing bubbly person. I was reflective, a bit subdued, preoccupied.

See how your R talk affected your PMA and hurt your ability to show off the new you? I see the impact of your 180's, but I think you need to be more patient.

All the best ...

[PositivelyListening]

Hi RB, You are right -

If I were you, though, I'd try to bite my tongue the next time you want to do an R talk.
... See how your R talk affected your PMA and hurt your ability to show off the new you?

The R talk affected me for the remainder of the day, as it was not what I wanted to hear from H, and it quieted me down and distracted me, and made me feel like I had to do something immediately to push back, which I then had to fight against. It was a lot of work to contain myself and not do that. I will heed your advice (as best as I am able) for future, and leave it to H to bring the R up. It had been REALLY hard, for a long time with no indication of where H was at, and based on H's recent behavior, I wanted him to say something about wanting to continue the M. I guess he did that, sorta when he said ending it sounded too permanent It's never quite what I want to hear right now, is it? You are right. I need more patience. It is too soon for any of that. Damn. Damn. Damn. It seems like it has been so long already. The patience part does not get any easier.

I do not know how the WAS can tolerate this limbo, dual world stuff. I find it unhealthy frustrating and exhausting. And H says he is happy with how his life is right now? I don't want it to be my job to make him unhappy, but really, how happy can you be living a double life where you blantantly disregard your own stated values? Or maybe H does not think this is a double life. He's just married to me and pursuing a romantic R with someone else. I guess I am still not over how much that conflicts with my values. And, somewhere in there, I still truly believe H wants me, regardless of H's current contraditions. So I just want him to come on over with it already. Damn. I need to let go again. Sometimes, I think the only thing that will make a difference is if I leave completely and file for D. And I suppose even then, H's timeline will still be H's timeline, and he'll get it when he gets it, regardless of what I do. Or is that right? I certainly think periodically that I am having an impact. Am I? Do you see any improvement in my sitch? To me it still seems up and down, but not forward moving. Unless somehow the effects I have on H are cumulative, and at some point kaboom he will get who I am for him once again.

I hear your concern about this:

Also, be careful in telling him that he's hooked on a drug and that it isn't real. We may know this, but he may feel patronized hearing it from you.

Based on our personal growth work in the past, and the fact that trust has been building between H & I in our communications, I thought he might be able to hear me with an open mind. But you are right, H may have dismissed me in his mind with a "she has no idea how special my relationship with OW is" kind of thought. That's entirely possible. In any case, now that I've said it, I won't ever need to say it again.

The thing I am most concerned about right now, related to DBing, is that I fear it allows a continuation of disrespect for me, and allows H to take me for granted. I have been unable to find a way to counteract this expectation that I am just "there" for him, except for the brief periods when I have gone "dim". I am also not sure the "dim" periods were effective. Maybe they were, and I just got restless. I guess I need some confirmation that steps have happened in my sitch. I will review my history with H over the past 7 months, to see if I can see those baby steps in my direction. Because moestly I feel that we have gotten to this point several times, and no further. Perhaps that will be the case as long as he is in R with OW. However, I am ready for a permanent, life-altering breakthrough.

If you RB, or any one else, sees more than limbo repeating itself ad infinitum, and has words of encouragement for me, I would appreciate that. Meanwhile, I am hearing patience, patience and more patience.

And my thoughts right now, are to continue to add some mystery, to be unavailable and say "NO" sometimes, and to provide words of affirmation and listen alot to H when we do interact. Seems like I have been on to these thoughts for a while, though. They are harder to execute than one might think. I hate it that I feel H is so confident in having me as a back up to his OW life. I did plant the seed that I might not go on like that forever. My current challenge is that I don't feel comfortable being more aloof and mysterious while still being loving and compassionate. Slightly aloof and mysterious feels so foregn and unnatural to me. No wonder H can take me for granted when I am so predictable and reliable to H. If anyone has concrete specific ideas about being mysterious without being deceptive, I am all ears.

[RBinBR]

PL, all I will say is that I think you are right that you cannot continue on the present path forever. You cannot keep up the status quo indefinitely without evidence of change. At some point, you may need to do a big 180. I can tell you that the last 10 weeks have been much more tolerable for me because I knew that I was starting a new career and moving to a new apartment at the end of July, with the likelihood of a sitch change as a result (not to mention the possiblity of OM leaving to join the Army, which does appear to be happening). My future plans have enabled me to DB patiently for the time being. I'm now planning to take D4 on a week-long Spanish immersion trip for Thanksgiving. That trip won't happen if W and I reconcile before then, but I'm not planning my life around her. You may need to do a little long-term planning for something without your H.

[JokerMan]

PL,
Just read your whole thread. Damn. You Strongbear and so many others....

I just cannot comprehend how a wife could stick with a man with an ongoing affair. My wife will likely leave even when I tell her I had one and it is over.

I agree with BR (GEAUX TIGERS - I'm an LSU fan), how long can this go on? I read about the intimate times on vacation and then the cold times too.

I see and understand a lot of what your H is doing, but I just don't understand why his light has not flipped on yet.

Yes OW are just like a drug...telling him that will just piss him off. I'm starting to wonder if dealing with ongoing cheating H should be just like you deal with a drug addict or a drunk.

I know that does not help you. I'm just rambling.

I will be keeping up with you.

[JokerMan]

Again...not trying to double dip here, but you had a lot of questions on the other thread. I'm not sure how much thread hopping you do so here is my response to your questions in case you did not get a chance to see them:

PositivelyListening
****he "has to" pursue the R with her because he always does things for everyone else and this time he needs to do what will make him happy

OK that made me laugh out loud. I don't know your husband or his background. He may or may not have a reason to feel that way. I felt the same thing. I used issues in my past to justify it.

**** Despite the fact that she is married, has children, has no plans of leaving her M, and they live in separate countries with neither one of them planning to relocate.

That's just strange. I was in a deep cloud of an affair, but he knows he is going down a dead end?? That does not make a lot of sense to me. All I can say is affairs will warp your logic. When I was in the midst of mine, I accepted the fact I was going to lose tons of $$, I accepted the fact I was going to lose my daughter (who is the MOST important person to me...I know, I know it should be my wife. I'm just being honest), my house and likely my job. I justified all this. Thinking about it now....I can only compare it to a drug addiction.

****If I continue to be loving and patient, do you think he will figure it out?

Hearing that breaks my heart. I wish I could tell or promise you that by doing that he WILL run back. I can't. All I can say is my wife did what you are doing and that was one of the big reasons I came back and cut off the OW. If she had nagged and pushed and argued, I would be sleeping with the OW right now (well actually not right now since she is in the slammer for the weekend, but you get my gist).

****Does that always happen?
I have to believe it does. I have no empirical evidence other than my own situation, and now that I have a clear head, logic. Honestly....What is that R based on??? It's based on lies, weakness and being a traitor. To have an affair you have to lie in the beginning to hide it, you do it b/c the OW is filling a void and you're too weak to find a way in your own M to fix that and being a traitor b/c you made a vow.

Even if you H does "love" this person, their R is built on a house of cards. I have to believe as soon as life's troubles hits, the cards will fall.

****Also, I would love it if you have time to periodically check in on my sitch on my thread

Will do. Just take what I say with a grain of salt. I've learned a lot about affairs and will share my shame, but I'm not a marriage counselor.

****Do you ever think interference is a good thing?

Wow. That is a great question. I think it depends how deep your H is in the affair. If he is REAL deep, he will run away. If he has one foot in and one foot out, it may be a wake up call. Be VERY careful though. I was not put in that situation. That's just my gut reaction.

****But I have not been "tough", not at all. Although I have been straight at times, and strong. Your thoughts?

I've said before. I think my wife almost enabled my affair. Even though she did not know about it. Hell, I could upstairs right now and tell her I'll be gone for a couple of days and all she would say is, "OK be safe. Call me if you can."

The final straw for me was when I saw how selfish the OW was. When I first started my "clarity" a month ago 6/19, and started to break it off with the OW she went ape sh^t. All I could think was "Damn, I left my pregnant wife and three year old and my wife did not treat me this bad." Prior to this point every time I compared the OW and my wife the OW would come out on top (no pun intended).

But when you really start to think about your entire life and what you are going to give up...my wife came out on top every time. That's why I went back.