Positively new thread - how do you deal with this?

[RBinBR]

Forgive me -- I know that you have talked several times about the S12 in Germany and efforts to bring him here.

Your last post, I think, helps explain the depths of your H's depression and strangeness. He went into a MLC not only because of a mistress, but because his personal failure cost him a son.

Just curious -- have you seen any indication on your H's part that he might be considering a permanent return to Germany?

[PositivelyListening]

Hi RB, No indication so far that he is planning to return to Germany. He is in the midst of completing his US citizenship, awaiting only the oath ceremony. Of course a US passport is a good thing to have, and would not impede his return to Germany. But I do not think he wants to go there. I do periodically get the sense that he and OW may be hatching something, but more like a fantasy scenario for years down the road is my guess. He's made a couple of recent comments about wanting to retire when he is 50, which he never said while living with me - his ambitions around his work and a dream to build houses (prior to the recent comments) were VERY long term, as he said he loved his work and couldn't picture ever NOT working, and he loves living here. I do know OW has never lived outside her home town in Germany, and she has no intention of leaving her H or children (younger teenagers - 13 or 14 age range I believe) at this time. My suspicion is that H & OW are fantasizing an escape for when the children are grown, which is why H wants to retire at 50 and make lots of money between now and then so he can finance their dream escape. I also found that he had accessed a web site about living in Australia, and when I have mentioned Australia recently (I have a friend there for a month, etc.) he has acted either overly interested or pointedly looked away as if uninterested. Just speculation on my part of course but I wouldn't be surprised if they have some future fantasies that include figuring out a way to be together somewhere new. I just don't think he'll go back to Germany as the economic prospects aren't good (and he has a strong and growing business here) and the weather doesn't suit him there either. And I suspect if they did try to live together in Germany, people in their lives would give them a hard time about what they had done.

In some ways, I wish he would have the urge to go back to Germany. I think he's find out pretty quickly if he did that, that the R with OW will not work. But at a distance, they can continue to text message 20 times a day and keep the longing and fantasy going. Forgive me, but I am a little pissy about it today. All MY recent fantasies have involved kicking him to the curb. Sometimes it just feels so unlikely that he will ever wake up. I re-read parts of DR last night, and it reminded me that if all my best DB efforts do not get results, it is due to an OW in the wings. The best I can do is focus on me, and not them. It will make me crazy, I just want to shake him up, wake him up and it won't work. I know that he feels like he has found his true love for forever Sometimes I think his behavior is so stupid it is hard to be compassionate. But then I remember that underneath all of this he is hurting and trying to find a way out of the pain, and I can be patient one more day.

[grasshopper]

Maybe he just has to learn that lesson one more time, just like I have to learn this walk-away syndrome and learn to accept it without judgement I don't know how to do that. Honestly, it just feels wrong. It doesn't fit my values. I can accept that he is hurting, and have compassion. But I don't think I will ever be able to accept the behavior of a secret affair or a walk-away choice as OK, even if I can understand how it happens.

Ok, but you have to accept this if you are ever to reconcile (and I know you are saying that you may not be able to). I think what you are failing to accept is that he is his own person, out of your control. You need to accept that he is a human being and as thus, makes mistakes. This affair is NOT who he is, but rather a decision he made. As in all decisions, one can either be proud of it, or eventually have regret about it. Someone who commits a crime but never has remorse for it is worse, both literally and morally, than someone who repents their crimes/sins and works to make themselves right.

I agree that his decisions don't match your morals right now but don't make the mistake of assuming his FUTURE decisions will not.

To me, that is how you learn to accept this. You understand that it's merely a decision, one you disagree with but that does not define him totally as a man...yet.

GH

[PositivelyListening]

Wise as always, Grasshopper.

I agree that his decisions don't match your morals right now but don't make the mistake of assuming his FUTURE decisions will not.

What I have been struggling with lately is, isn't there something else I can DO to help move this forward? I keep thinking about what DB Coach Chuck said to me last week - we are not "manipulating" but we are certainly doing everything we can to influence a decision that works for us through our own actions and behaviors. And that is perfectly OK. So, I guess I feel stuck right now. The pace feels like a snail's pace, stopped, stuck, maybe even going backwards. Patience and trust in short supply right now. I am not feeling confident that anything I am doing or have done is making a difference. I realize I have no control over my H's choices, only over my own choices and behaviors. I just do not know how long I should reasonably hold the space for an unknown future with him. If he was showing any interest in me or an R with me, it would certainly help. I do not see that. I have always believed in him, but I guess right now I am questioning everything I thought I knew to be true. I read in a few threads on these boards that some people think MLC doesn't really exist - that's it's just an excuse for selfish inconsiderate immature hurtful behavior. That seems so judgemental and angry. But maybe I am a naive and hopeful doormat and my H has no concept of fidelity, commitment, responsibility, unconditional love? I can bust my butt to model it but what if the chasm is too deep and wide and I will pour myself out and never be able to fill the space between where we are now and where I have always believed we could be? Will it still be a worthwhile thing to do? I think so, but God it is so hard. It is such a lonely lonely road.

It has been difficult in particular this week to experience the upset and anger my D is finally expressing too. She feels that H has ruined my life and taken me away from her because I am spending time focused on DBing and our M which takes so much work and effort and she sees me somewhat "gone" also. She sees how hard it is, and it is hard for her to watch. I thought I was doing much better than before (and she says, "you are! but what a waste of energy, how unnecessary all this is!") She is mad at him, she has lost respect for him, is she is tired and dissapointed too, unsure that she could ever feel good about him or trust him again. So that is hard for me to see, the effects on my girls. I wish I could have protected them more, prevented this, or could assure them a "happy ending". The only thing I can see to do right now is to pull back and walk away myself. Yet, I feel like it would take H months to even notice and wonder where I went. Meanwhile, what? I will be having my life, fine. But H has never responded well to absenses, that has always made him more distant. So how will it help him or us? It will only help me, and only short term I think. H does not maintain old friendships that well, although he is always happy when old friends find him. I am supposed to be creating an environment that encourages him to look at me again. What does that look like? I like me (most of the time, when I am not sad and hopeless), but right now, I don't like him either. Maybe it's just because I am sad and feeling hopeless. I want to like him again, but where is he? Where did my loving H go? I wish he could just throw me a bone right now, something to encourage me. Too much to expect I guess. And I don't know if I can keep doing this without any help from him. It seems like he is disdainful that I am making any effort to save our M. Only thing I can see is to back off until I get to a place where it doesn't hurt and I feel better. I am just not at all sure I am reading him right. He's so up and down anyway. And I am still too interested in what he thinks/feels/wants even when I know he's not thinking straight.

I feel like I want to give him an overview of what I think has happened so far (although realistically it wouldn't be all pretty), ways that I have grown and insights that I have had, and the choices we could make so he is aware of the options and consequences and that no movement on his part is a choice with consequences too. But I do not have confidence that he can hear me, or is willing or able to listen. Maybe that would just be more pressure at a time when he can't handle it, so what good will that do? Not sure he would care anyway, but I so much want to articulate what I see happening and I guess I want him to understand he is responsible for the choices being made (including no action), not just blaming me for what shows up later.

So, I am grieving the loss of our M once again. I am wanting at least some acknowledgement from him that he gets what is happening, when it appears there is no collective understanding to be had. We always came to agreement before. Now I feel like he just faked agreement all the way through, built resentment, and now will flee. Oh poop. poop poop.

If there was such a thing as a certain future, one way or the other, I would know what to do now. What are the odds on DBing? Does anyone have any success story threads I could read right now to give me some more hope? I feel like my scenario is the most hopeless type (MLC H who refuses to end the A). Show me some success stories like mine, I say, and a timeline . I can feel depression and sadness taking over again. No energy to work out/exercise, want to eat and sleep and read and stay in bed only. I did get up and go to work. People tell me I look good, but I feel like a shell. No wonder D is upset, she can see that in ways others can't. She knows me.

So my fantasies of what I want to do are: 1) Write H a heartfelt letter letting him know what I think has happened, what I would like to see happen, but also telling him I am willing to let him go completely if that is what he wants. 2) Getting mad in front of him (for the first time in six months) and letting him know I can't accept his insensitive uncommitted behavior towards me anymore and that I can not go on this way 3) Telling him I am leaving, and will communicate with his parents and brother and sister-in-law about why 4) Telling him that I love him deeply and remain committed, but I am backing off until such time as he is committed to working on reconciliation, and then we can explore if it's still possible from my end. Some permutation of 1 & 4 I think about alot. So how will that hurt or help my goals?

Right now, I have the distinct impression that H takes me for granted, resents me and is critical of me, thinks I am emotionally available and open to him whenever he wants. I believe that he fakes kindness and is very generous so he can feel justified in pursuing the A. I feel like he will be able to say I "used him" to work on the house etc. after the R was dead, and that bothers me because that is the scenario he has played out in R's in the past (working hard, unappreciated, no love from the girl in the end). I feel he is killing it off, and will blame me. None of this is pleasant for me, nor healthy for either of us IMHO. He appears extremely extremely addicted to OW. Texting OW in front of family members at Disneyland. Checking his phone for messages every 1/2 hour on moving day and at meals. How do I get from here to a healthy R when I am the only one participating? Is any improvement possible when he is MLC and having an A? I am trying to keep our distance equal, but emotionally I am quite sure that I am overly invested. I am concerned for him. But I have no ability to help the sitch? No that's not right. What can I do to make it better? I feel like I am doing what he is doing to me, in terms of being nice, kind and cordial towards him. But I am not pissy, impatient, unkind, or critical in front of him as he is sometimes towards me. I am not rude. I do not say inappropriate things or laugh inappropriately or embarrass my children (more frequent lately). I can still censor myself. I am only contacting him regarding "business" matters right now which is all he talks about with me. He is non-committal and aloof to anything fun with me, which indicates to me that he was feeling pursued. So I am conscious now about going about planning all fun without him. But I am sad. Dissapointed. Frustrated. Wishing it would be different.

My current plans are to walk on the beach tonight, review my DB goals and assess where I am objectively in terms of the progress over the past 5 months, write new DB action steps and goals, and organize my school work and files.

So, what is the difference beteeen detaching and not caring? I have asked this before. But, it seems like the results I am seeing with others are after the LBS has gotten mad and/or just given up. You know, "Frankly, Scarlett, I just don't give a damn" and then the WAS wakes up and it's too late. I feel like I just want to give up and walk away, but I also feel like I shouldn't, that I will regret it because I will never be able to reconnect again. Well, if GH is right, then I would be able to if H was ever the H again that I could be "in love with". Because I love him, but I sure couldn't be "in love" with him right now. Oh help. Oh poop.

[always_14]

Hey PL....sorry you're having such a hard time with all of this. It often gets this way, I understand. It's so hard standing still and feeling like it's what you need to do to make progress.

Make some new goals for yourself. Stop worrying so much. So much of what is bothering you now is what I worry about too....but realize that much of that is OUT of your control. Just keep what you're doing. Enjoy time with D, friends and life. Make that the goal for the summer, H can join if he wants. It's so easy to get down, so don't worry. BUT, you have to pick yourself back up for your D's (and for US!). I know you can do it.

Detach or not care...hmmm, good question. I'm facing that now. It's so hard for me to look at H and feel the love....in fact, I feel loathing at times. But, that's also kinda natural. At other times, I feel so good, still not in love, that I just want to put it all away. BUT, you know, it's still early for me, we still haven't cleared the air with talks....so me expecting to be in love now is unrealistic. I still have to wait, and so do you.

We have all been treading on the the line of limbo for so long that we become crazed with questions of certainty for our future. It's understandable. You're feeling out of control. Focus on how to get that feeling of control back.

Take it 1 step at a time. Write your DB goals down, but also write down goals for the summer for YOU. remember to keep in mind all aspects of your self (spiritual, physical, mental, family, etc). Most days will be pushing yourself through these things, but then you'll see that they actually make you forget for a little while and mkae you feel better.

Hang in there.

[RBinBR]

PL, I'm so sorry to see you so down about your sitch. You've gotten no measurable progress in a while, and I know how tough that can be. The good news is that you have been improving yourself during the meantime.

I'll advise what I always tell people in your position -- take a break. Figure out a way to avoid calling him about business (can you just email him) and give yourself a break for a week or two with no phone or personal contact. It will help you detach, and it will give you some peace from which you can make some decisions. It might also make him curious, so don't tell him that you're taking a break -- just do it.

[PositivelyListening]

Hi Always, Thanks for writing to me. I just had a big cry fest. Hopefully will feel the results of that and feel better soon. H just called me, all happy and funny. Wanted to know if I had any news, guess he hadn't understood that we closed escrow last Friday on D's house and thought it was today. He was in a celebratory mood, all upbeat. He had a big talk with me about our finances, he was really on a roll. Talked to me again about the "hot" real estate market, how that is the only way we will get farther ahead, by buying another house again. I feel like he is just trying to wear me down on this issue. I insisted on selling D's house when the A was revealed, to protect myself financially since we borrowed against our main house (in my name only) to buy it. I wanted to protect this asset, as I can not afford to live here with that debt without H's income, so then I would lose it. Worst part is I KNOW that we will be better off financially if we keep our funds and personal attributes co-mingled and move forward on another house. I have the capital available, he has the skills and ability to fix a fixer up, and our long term goals will be reached much quicker if we are working together with my house $$ and his skills. Up to now, I have been the arranger/planner/shopper, he the repairing, building doing guy and that has worked well. So there he was on the phone, playing up this scenario once again. Third time in a month. And part of me wants to do it too, but I also don't want all our assets tangled up with an OW plan for his future. I am not sure I can trust him as long as he is "with" her. It's an integrity issue, if he lies and cheats, where's the line? So, he was talking about which financial coaches have worked for us best, H seems to be willing to have those conversations with the professionals in this arena (just not MC or life coaching).

I feel that he is testing me, testing my boundaries. I told him last time, that I wanted another house too, but I only wanted to move forward in the context of a committed healthy marriage. I feel like he just wants to wear me down, so that I will say yes, or be able to blame me later if I say no. There is a lot of logic to his desire to do this. Is this a time when I should set my emotions aside (the betrayal, the trust issues, the hurt) and be happy that he wants to have some kind of relationship with me rather than none? And keep nursing it along, whatever IS available? It makes me feel used, like selling myself out for a few $$$. This is not the first time I have been asked in my life to give up what really mattered to me (my integrity, my truth, love, ideals) for money. It has never set right with me before when I have done it. So it doesn't make me want to go forward, feeling that way, and I don't think he can provide the reassurance I need. I just need to feel like I am worth more than a few $$ in order to stay engaged with H in my life. Shooting myself in the foot , I fear. I don't know.

So I had a good cry. It started even before I got off the phone with H. I tried to conceal it, but he could tell anyway. He remained all cheery, wished me a good evening, happy tone. I started crying immediately, no holding back, as soon as he was off.

I want to please him and keep the R going, but I want to please ME a lot more. Problem is I just don't know what's the right thing to do. I am hoping this is the dark before the dawn for me.

One thing I can do (his suggestion actually) is call our former cash-flow coach. He trusts her, and she helped us in the past improve our situation financially and get the emotions out of the way on more than one occasion. Best of all, she has had the personal growth training that H & I trained in, which bases itself in integrity. I will call her tomorrow. Maybe a small miracle will occur, to release the impasse.

I am so glad to see a post from you. Thank you Always. I will especially sort out my goals for the summer. And I will sort out the categories of them, including financial, health, play (vacation) spiritual, physical etc. I am sure that will help. I know at some point this will get better

[PositivelyListening]

Hi RB, You are so right:

I'll advise what I always tell people in your position -- take a break. Figure out a way to avoid calling him about business (can you just email him) and give yourself a break for a week or two with no phone or personal contact. It will help you detach, and it will give you some peace from which you can make some decisions. It might also make him curious, so don't tell him that you're taking a break -- just do it.

Every time I have taken a break (first time was 2 weeks after the reveal of A in January when I went to Atlanta for an education weekend) it has helped me regain my center. When I am home, I feel too predictable. When I am away, he wonders, and I have a GREAT time. So how do I create more wondering at home? Tonight on the phone, he told me that tomorrow he wants to drop by after work. I told him I wasn't sure I would be here but come on by if he wants to do some work in the office. [I have a beach walk planned with a friend, and I intend to take it!] But I don't want to feel like I have to invent activities to take me away from my home and doggie and kitty at night just to be mysterious. But I can perhaps, have D answer the phone and be less available if H calls. I think I need a phone with caller ID so I can screen calls when I'm home and not take his if I don't want to. I can do that on my cell, but not at home. I would have screened H tonight, but then I would have missed that cheery financial talk I think less of H will help me right now. The only thing I would really like to hear from H at the moment, is that he's committed to working on our M. Other than that (which surely isn't likely) I think you are right, I just need more space.

Thanks for being there, RB. I really look forward to seeing your posts. And your sitch has definitely given me hope. So thanks for sticking around through your dark times. I will eat, exercise, and read tonight. I am sure some of this will help. God bless you.

[PositivelyListening]

I am disturbed about this second house thing with my H. Trying to decide if I am just being stubborn and controlling, or smart and careful by taking a stand. Our situation is not ideal right now, so I am muddled. I wouldn't enter into business with someone who was a liar and a cheat. H wants me to separate the two worlds, personal and business. They are part of a whole person, a whole relationship, to me. I realize by enforcing a boundary about a "whole marriage" before we move forward with financial commitments could force his decision to end the M because he is not ready to end the A and right now does not want to pursue a healthy M with me as far as I can tell. I am willing to wait, do nothing for now, but H may see this as a control issue or an ultimatum to end the A. And obviously he can not force himself to love me if he doesn't want to and isn't willing to try to restore our M. So why would I want him in my life under those circumstances? Because it could change when the fog lifts, and he will feel like I was agreeable and was his friend and am still there. That feels so tenuous and risky. Any insights would be appreciated. Maybe I just need more information about how he thinks this will work. I think he wants the business with no personal, as he has said all along. I think the loss of the business aspect of our partnership is a logical consequence/outcome when trust has been broken. But of course I have not ended ALL contact, so right now we are trying to figure out what could work. I want it ALL, but should I accept what's available in the interim? D says it doesn't matter if we go ahead with another house, we will both be on the title so he can't really do anything without my agreement. I guess for me, if you can't trust someone, how can you trust them? I dunno. Your thoughts on this?

[lucyhelen]

Hi PL, I've been lurking awhile...just wanted to say a few things if you don't mind. Stand your ground on the house. You already told him you don't want to do it unless he is committed to the marriage. He knows it. But he's trying to wear you down, I think. So if you say no, and he walks away, what have you lost? You've lost someone who was using you for his own (and possibly the OW's) financial gain. I think maybe this is why you are disturbed by it. You know deep down he doesn't want to do it for you and him; he wants to do it for him, or possibly him and her. I think she's giving him that old familiar line, "I can't leave my kids yet; they're too young, but maybe when they are older...." blah blah blah She is never going to leave her safe world for an unsafe one. She may justify her actions by saying she's a "good" person for staying with her H and kids but she's a cheat and a liar. Your H hasn't figured the whole thing out yet.

Meanwhile, and yes, I've been there, the main word is patience. It's an awful word because you really want to hit him over the head with a frying pan and say, "Wake up, you idiot!" But you can't do it for him; he has to do it and unfortunately, maybe he never will.

You are grieving for your marriage and the H who used to be and my heart goes out to you. And, of course, you are free to do what you want, but if I were you I'd stand my ground on this house issue. If he wants to have a life without you, then fine; let him do it on his own. Don't make it easy for him. I KNOW all this is easier said than done. I think he wants to have his cake and eat it, too.

Too bad he doesn't notice how much the OW has already done for him. Turned his life upside down, broke up his marriage and destroyed his relationship with his son. Gee, she's great! What else will she do before he wakes up and smells the coffee? Frustrating, isn't it? I know.

I wish you luck! And I wish you peace. It's a long hard road but you're a strong person and you'll find your way. No matter what happens you WILL feel good again someday.

Ok, just my 2 cents!

LH