Positively new thread - how do you deal with this?

[PositivelyListening]

Hi everyone, I am thinking my old thread may lock up soon. So here is my new thread, with a link to the old one. Wow. And I am still here :-)

Positively Listening - First round

Very first - Positively Newbie thread

[RBinBR]

PL, congratulations on surviving to a 2nd thread! Ha ha. I'm sure that we all wish we could reconcile and close these threads down.

I know that we're not supposed to do R talks, but it has been an awfully long time since your H got back from Europe. I can definitely understand your need to know something about where he is. It might be time for a heart-to-heart, since I can see your frustration with the stagnation of your sitch. I think, though, that you should wait until after your coaching session before doing that, so you can get some professional advice.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as the book you're reading (I assume that it's Love Must be Tough by Dr. James Dobson, I think that particular advice you mention is for those still living with their spouses in a marital relationship while the spouse continues an A. There's already been the "shake up" in your case, because he's already out of the house.

You may, though, want to see if there are any 180's that you can do to change the dynamics of your sitch. Remember that Michele tells us to constantly experiment and monitor results. If you can't think of any, that might be good to ask your coach for ideas.

[PositivelyListening]

Hi RB and all,

RB, Thanks for checking in on me with your usual great support. I have made an appointment with DB coach Chuck for Wednesday afternoon this week, and will take Wednesday morning to prepare so I can get full value. I will ask Chuck about having an R talk with H (yes, it surely feels like a LONG time without one word about the OW or A or our M although I think his behavior is still speaking a fair amount). I will also inquire about some 180's as I am having trouble figuring out what I might do there. I will make a list of other things too, and what has happened in the past month. I will make sure to post what I learn from Chuck for everyone's benefit.

Update on the past few days: I stayed in a hotel with H for 3 nights. D's graduation festivities and all the friends and relatives seemed to bring H closer to me. We had a great time together. We cuddled in bed every night through much of the night, and there were many times when he cuddled, held or initiated hugging me. There were some truly precious moments for the two of us alone. In particular, on D's graduation day, we had a long pause together, I was looking out of the hotel window, when H came over and hugged and held me and looked out the window with me for a very long time. It was a quiet time, and very powerful. I can not remember the last time H lingered with me and held me like that. He said a few very loving things, and he looked at me very lovingly more than once, instead of just staring out the window. This pause for our connection meant a lot to me. He also told me that I have done a very good job of including him and making him part of the family. (H is actually the "newest addition" to the clan). I told him that he was important to us; and also very important to me. Earlier, while laying on the bed, I got a little teary reminiscing about D when she was little, and he came over and laid on the bed with me and listened and caressed my bare leg while I shared.

On this trip, he allowed me to give him a full body massage twice which is more open to touching than he has been since the A was revealed. He kissed me a few times, and touched my skin. But I am clear he is maintaining a 100% non-sexual stance with me which is frankly a barrier I would like to break down anytime now. I think he may be "trying" though, but he is just scared to death. Alternatively, he is perhaps still feeling too guilty, or perhaps is still too caught up with OW. No way to know right now. I invited him to take a shower with me after our long day at Disneyland, and although he did not join me, he arrived naked as I was getting out. First time I have seen him frontally naked in a long long while. He has been dressing with his back to me until this weekend, so he is definitely being more open. I am trying not to push or pursue while still being affectionate and inviting. I did kiss him on two different evenings while we were in bed, and he immediately moved me to hold me, hugging me and placing my head on his shoulder while he spoke to me instead of allowing the kissing to continue. Trying to manage me at a safe distance and making sure things don't progress is how I understand that. But still cuddling. I do not know how this works, but I have heard it is common to be continually stand-offish if there is an OW. So if those of you who have insights into this have thoughts to share, I am most open. I can tell you all that a "problem" in our M was that H did not think I initiated ML often enough. I was looking for him to initiate much more too, as that is what I prefer. I have never said no (really!), but it was his impression that I was not interested often, and it was my impression that he wasn't. We were both stressing and working too much too and struggled with creating opportunities for privacy which didn't help our energy levels or interest either. It got to the point we only ML when we travelled and were staying in a hotel. Part of the reason I like the hoteling of late. But the sitch is different now, and perhaps it is still way too early to be thinking about sex (but I do think about it alot now - and those thoughts keep me awake sometimes ) I'm not sure how the OW plays in, and it seems like H is kind of a reversal of "the man likes to pursue" thing so I don't begin to know how to behave around this issue. Except that letting it atrophy forever won't work for me. I do remember that in the beginning of our R, H used to initiate often. At some point, he indicated that I had hurt him or made him insecure by something I said, and even though I apologized saying I had not intended what he thought, and reassured him many times, he said that was why the sex slowed down.

Regarding how I was over this past weekend - I noticed that I had little moments of suspicion about H's behaviors. I had thoughts like, "Is he text messaging OW right in front of me while I'm on the carousel at Disneyland?" (It turned out no, he was fiddling with my camara so he could get a photo of us). I wanted to check his phone log again a few different times (didn't). H got upset and aloof for about 2 hours at D's graduation party - I spent some thought trying to second guess what had happened (was it the people, did someone say something to him? had the OW called? was it something I had said/done?) It turned out there were some technical problems with the house which was going to require MORE work on H's part and he did not want to tell me at the party as this has been the MOST frustrating experience imaginable. I do not like the fact that I still spend some time (not as much as it might appear from my posts - but some) trying to second guess H and thinking or focusing on H's thoughts instead of busying myself with my own thoughts about life. I certainly have enough going on in my life that I do not need to waste my time on worry or suspicious thoughts about H when I have no information to base them on. Of course, I would prefer to have straight information always including now. Other than the occasional distractions related to suspicion, however, I have been positive, cheery, upbeat, playful, compassionate, emotionally available and related. Mostly just myself at my best. Looking good feeling good, most of the time.

I left D's house early this morning, but D's house saga continues, and we had a plumbing break a few hours after I left, flooded the whole house from every water source at once (toilet, shower, washer - happy graduation to adult life D!) and we were told by the plumber we need a new main line. Are YOU KIDDING? What kind of luck is this when escrow closes on that house in 5 days and it would have been covered for them under homeowners warranty? The party's what did it too - just plain overload. H is still down there dealing with the city and those repairs and trying to get them to sign off, and now this too. He sounded extremely dejected on the phone today - so sad to see after such a happy weekend for us. Good God, my H has been a saint making all these repairs on that house for at least 15 whole days in the last month. I honestly don't know what I could possibly do to appreciate him enough for solving all this. I worry sometimes that the pressure of this house alone would be enough to make him run away. Why would he want to buy another house with me as he says? Must be the MLC wanting to bury the depression in workaholism, or plain glutton for this particular kind of fixer-upper punishment. I on the other hand, know why I want a 100% marriage before we go deeper into business ventures. My priorities are keeping me up at night . Although I suspect his are too, they are just not as fun...

H said he would call me tonight after he gets home. We shall see, somehow I think he might not as he sounded so down. We are due to go back to D's house one last time this week, to close out the house and move all our stuff and her. After that, H & I have no more official plans to do anything together. However, this weekend H mentioned which hotel he wanted to stay in when we go down for his citizenship oath ceremony (and the hotel he mentioned was one we stayed at together when life was very good between us .) So if that was H making a plan when he brought that up (which he rarely does as I am the big planner) that seemed like a good sign. Maybe that will be my 180 - make no plans and see if he initiates some. This seems tricky since H regularly thrives on reassurance and appreciation, and that has worked pretty well up until now and is coming quite naturally to me now. So as usual I dunno what to do about these 180's and what they should look like.

Thoughts on any of this are always welcome.

[PositivelyListening]

I had an interesting day yesterday. I am enrolled in an academic program which periodically involves face-to-face work with other students, including a lot of personal stories and which creates a lot of intimacy due to the sharing. We also have social events as part of the program, and last night included a trip out to dinner and live music, drinks etc. A fellow in my class spent a lot of time at the dinner with me, and is very attractive and successful, funny and smart, etc. He is also married, and as it turns out, having some difficulties with a lack of sexual interest from his W. He also knows the sitch I am in. Don't worry y'all, I took the high road here. Told him about the Five Love Languages and His Needs, Her Needs and suggested that he deserved a life and marriage that was full and alive rather than living in resignation (which is where he seems to be) - hoped he would read the books and share them with his W. If he had intended to purse infidelity with me, I suppose I was a wet blanket refering him back to his M. But the interesting part for me was that I got how easy it would be to have an A. I kind of "forgot" the scene was out there. An A would have been very easy to do and for the first time in my life I understood the temptation and the "who would know, who would care, I have needs" kind of thinking. It also gave me some compassion for my H. I believe he was vulnerable for a number of reasons, and I once again am clear that I forgive him for his choice even though it has been so painful to me. It is a lot of work to be faithful and committed, and I can see now so clearly how our society and environment doesn't make it any easier. This doesn't excuse it, but I understand in a new way now. Even more so, I understand how an EA can happen even if you don't pursue a PA. I had fantasies, and my ego was well massaged last night. So, I spent very little time talking to this fellow today in our classes, and didn't seek him out to say good bye. There can be dangers out there after all.

The other thing that happened is that my H told me he was going to come over while I was out last night. He had my suitcase and offered to drop it here, and also wanted to "work a little in the office". I called him back to discuss our final trip down to D's house and when we would leave, so I could make hotel arrangements etc. However, with fear in my belly, I also took a risk with H. I told him that when he had moved out in January, I had asked him to remove all things from our home and to cease all activities in our home that were connected to the OW and/or the A. I told him that I felt awkward bringing this up, but when he said he was coming over to "work in the office" that it often felt to me like he was coming over to use the office space to pursue activities or communications related to the A from our home. He said, "I remember when you asked me to do that, and I removed everything then. I am not communicating with OW from the house, not on the phone or on the computer." You may recall from earlier posts that I discovered a document on H's computer which has messages from OW in it, and new messages have periodically been added to that document as recently as this month. It felt like maybe H pulled a "Clinton" - he is not communicating with her directly, just recording her on his computer, making CD's for her, etc. so he thinks that doesn't count? He was so cheery and sweet after he told me NOTHING was here, like he was so happy to be able to give me the answer I wanted. He sounded so sincere. I felt so sad about that. However, a friend said to me on the phone last night that this is why MY integrity is so important. This is a problem because I snooped at one time, and now I know that document is there. Now that I know it is there, I have periodically checked to see if it has been updated. I have not told H that I found that doc, and he probably wouldn't like it. It's his document, his computer. I can justify that I found it accidentally, that we never had secrets before, and that he has promised to be honest with me so my initial accidental discovery was justified. But is it right now that I know it is there to act like I don't? So what is there to do to resolve this? Apologize but let him know that I found the document? Ignore it and never look at it again? Delete it and see if he notices? (I won't do that). Wait until someday when he brings it up along with everything else that still remains to be talked about?

I wish my H would come clean with me about OW, the A, everything. Normally, to have that happen in my life, I would need to make sure that I was behaving the way I want others to behave. "Be the change you want to see in the world" as Ghandi said. However, it seems in DR we are told not to say all sorts of things. I am used to being very straight and direct and honest. I usually don't leave much to wonder or worry about, I am usually pretty much an open book. This mysterious, not telling everything way of being is rather complicated and unnatural to me. And seems so counter-intuitive. I don't understand - when is the appropriate time to just talk straight with him again and be myself?

Last bit: another lightbulb went on last night. Sad but important. I found a book that H gave me on Valentine's Day 2004. It was Dr. Laura's book on "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands". At the time the book came out, Dr. Laura was very controversial as she had made some strong anti-gay comments as well as anti-feminist comments, and had alienated a huge portion of our community including me even though I had never read her or listened to her. I am a political progressive (you know, the educated liberal stereotype) and anyway, when H gave me the book, I recall making some harsh and negative comments about Dr. Laura's inappropriate stance on issues that I care about, and dismissed the book without ever looking at it again until last night. It pains me deeply to write this. I was so unkind to my H, in his attempt to communicate with me in a playful way, that he had needs. I was not listening to him, and I am really sad about that. FYI - the book has chapters in it about how important respect is to an H, and the importance of a comfortable home, feeling like the W builds up the H's self esteem, etc. I honestly don't care at all right now about Dr. Laura's political correctness. My H was trying to communicate with me, to let me know what he needed, and I missed it and dismissed it. I have cried twice about this now. I am looking forward to the opportunity to offer my H a heartfelt apology for being so insensitive. I am deeply sad for how long it has taken me to have such a small revelation. I wonder how much more there are about my behaviors that will be so painful to see? I wish more than anything that I could start all over with H. I know I could do much much better. I just want a chance. I pray it is not too late for us.

Tomorrow I leave to go to D's house with H, two nights again in a hotel together. He chose and extra night with me (one more than was really needed) and I will choose to see that as a positive. I am hopeful he will continue his warm and affectionate demeanor, but will go in with no expectations. Tomorrow before I go, I will also have a phone consult with DB coach Chuck. I will let you all know how that goes.

I have not been receiving much feedback lately. Perhaps my posts are too long? Or maybe something big needs to be said but no one wants to tell me? Am I missing something? I do miss hearing from you all.

[RBinBR]

PL, nice to see that you got a little dose of temptation. There's no question in my mind that this guy was hitting on you. It does help to see what our S's are exposed to, doesn't it? (You may remember my being tempted about a month ago.)

It's his document, his computer. I can justify that I found it accidentally, that we never had secrets before, and that he has promised to be honest with me so my initial accidental discovery was justified. But is it right now that I know it is there to act like I don't? So what is there to do to resolve this? ... Ignore it and never look at it again?

I think that ignoring it is the best answer. I also don't understand why it's so important to you that he not use his computer in the house to email the OW, as opposed to his doing it elsewhere. Really, as long as he isn't doing it in front of you, what's the difference?

I wish my H would come clean with me about OW, the A, everything. Normally, to have that happen in my life, I would need to make sure that I was behaving the way I want others to behave. "Be the change you want to see in the world" as Ghandi said. However, it seems in DR we are told not to say all sorts of things. I am used to being very straight and direct and honest. I usually don't leave much to wonder or worry about, I am usually pretty much an open book.

I doubt that you are completely an open book. Would you tell a friend that the weight she has put on really makes her look fat? If you went on a job interview, would you comment on how messy the interviewer's desk was?

The problem is really that you are used to being an open book with your H, and you really can't be anymore.

I think it's simply about putting your best foot forward. If you were on a first date with someone, would you immediately start telling him about your personality flaws or medical history? No, you would want to go out on a second date and you would gradually reveal more of yourself as the level of intimacy increased. That's the same situation you're in now, in a way. You are not in a commited relationship with your H, and there are things that it is not helpful to reveal until you are.

I recall making some harsh and negative comments about Dr. Laura's inappropriate stance on issues that I care about, and dismissed the book without ever looking at it again until last night. It pains me deeply to write this. I was so unkind to my H, in his attempt to communicate with me in a playful way, that he had needs. I was not listening to him, and I am really sad about that. FYI - the book has chapters in it about how important respect is to an H, and the importance of a comfortable home, feeling like the W builds up the H's self esteem, etc. I honestly don't care at all right now about Dr. Laura's political correctness. My H was trying to communicate with me, to let me know what he needed, and I missed it and dismissed it. I have cried twice about this now. I am looking forward to the opportunity to offer my H a heartfelt apology for being so insensitive.

As you know, just because somebody is wrong about one thing, doesn't mean that they are wrong about everything. I used to occasionally listen to Dr. Laura's radio show, and though I was annoyed by the rudeness with which she sometimes treated her callers, I always thought the advice she gave was pretty good.

I think you should be very careful in your apology to your H. It's easy for an apology to come off as pursuing ("I'm sorry, please take me back"). Don't do it unless you can do it with a smile, or at least without sounding upset. You want to project that the new you can learn from past mistakes and use them to grow in confidence and strength.

Good luck with Chuck this afternoon and please let us know what insights you gain.

[grasshopper]

PL, this is the pot calling the kettle black but yes, for me, keeping up with your posts can take more time than I have at any given moment so it takes me awhile to get to you. Maybe in the future, journal and then post some specific questions relating to your "journal" post that we can help you with. That way, even if we don't have time to read the entire journal entry, we can refrence it to answer your questions or offer you some specific advice.

Now, as for the latest monster post (lol)...

I think you handled the "getting hit on" thing pretty well. Good for you in trying to help the man out.

As for the "document", I agree with RB whole-heartedly. You need to STOP checking it. I COULD check my W's cell phone anytime I want. I suspect that if I checked it today when I got home, I would see OM's name in the "recently called" list but who freaking cares. I am not focused on the A or OM right now, I am focused on me and my marriage. I'm not in denial, just trying to focus on what I have control over. It's that framiliar refrain from DB that calls us to get past our attachment to the affair and treat it like the symptom it is, and not the disease we think it is.
You say it's a problem because you snooped one time. I snooped only once in all this to look at my W's phone and it IS a problem because of what I saw, but I stopped it immediatly from being any MORE of a problem because I just decided to stop snooping. YOU are the problem here. There is nothing magical about that document that MAKES you look at it. It's your choice and you keep choosing to look. Choose not to and then choose to get past it.

As far as him communicating with OW from your home, I think that was a hotly debated issue awhile ago in your sitch, finally settleing on this being a boundary you felt you needed to set and enforce. If that's the case, then you are being true to yourself to keep it in place. Otherwise, I again agree with RB that it seems like you are making a big issue out of something that is going to happen one way or another...or at least USED to happen one way or another.

The problem is that you say he keep updating the document and thus you assume that there is still stuff going on but YOU DON'T KNOW what is actually going on, even if you read the crap he puts in there.

And finally, I do feel for you about the Dr. Laura, both that you ignored your H trying to tell you something, and that you have her book (lol...kidding...sorta). It really does suck to look back and see SO clearly the wrong choices we made all in the name of marital complacency. We were SO sure things would always be "ok" because we were married and that's what being married was all about, eternal "ok-ness". Oops...guess we were wrong.
Don't beat yourself up. You know better now and you CAN still learn from this. You can discover what he was trying to tell you back then and maybe at some point discuss it with him.

Sorry it took so long for me to give you some feedback. I will try to do it more often in the future.

GH

[stillhangin]

I am not one of the better DBers here buit sadly I think I may be one of the best/worst snoopers around. What I have learned from it is that it does absolutely no good. All it's ever done for me is bring on more stress. I don't think that getting proof for something that you already "know" is healthy. I've come to the conclusion that I won't ask questions that I may not be able to handle the answer to. Leave his stuff alone and concentrate on your own business.

[grasshopper]

Very well put PMD. I think what irk's me the most is watching people damage themselves AND their hopes for reconciliation by constantly needing reinforcement of something they ALREADY know enough about to make appropriate decisions. To me it signifies a great deal of denial, which may seem opposite but what I mean is that why keep snooping to find out that the affair is still going on, or if they did "whatever" last week? Since most of us are VERY aware of the affair's status either because of our WAS's actions/words or what we "feel" then this constant snooping is indication that we need something more to prove to ourselves that this is REALLY going on. Oh, and as I always say, snooping because you think you're going to find that email where things are permanently broken off between them is just silly. It ain't gonna happen.

If you know your WAS is having an affair and he/she's lying about it then what more do you need to know? Why does it make you happy to know the details? Is it because you think, well, ok they've had sex, but so help me God, if he says "xxxxxx" to her or takes her to our favorite restaurant, IT'S OVER! My point is the same as it was earlier. Most of us already know all we need to know to make informed decisions. Knowing more just adds to our inability to shift focus away from the affair, and in the long run, our inability to reconcile.

Ok, rant over.

GH

[RBinBR]

PL, sorry to continue the hijack of sitch here, but hey, at least you're getting some comments.

I have to say that I may be one of the few people on this board who has benefited from snooping.

The time that I looked at my wife's cell phone and read all the text messages from the OM was a great relief to me. He was so childish (I know he was 20 years old, but still...). The emails were goo-goo gaa-gaa kind of baby talk. It was sick, yes, but I was sure then, and remain sure now, that my W will eventually decide that she wants to be with a man, not with a needy little boy whose mother divorced three times growing up and never gave him the love that he needed.

There was also the time early on after W left that I snooped on her bank card statements and discovered that OM didn't even have enough money to take her to Red Lobster or Chili's -- she had to pay all their expenses for both of them.

I'm not at all writing this in opposition to the general theory on the dangers of snooping, but just to point out an apparent exception in my case.

[grasshopper]

RB, I will argue that you have not been helped by snooping. Sure, you got some info that made you think a certain way but I think it's better when we learn to deal with the uncertainty of these things by standing on our own. A little over a week ago, you were ready to walk, and really, you still may be, but if that happened, and you ended up walking away, then you would have in effect, been wrong in that the A still continues and you W did not leave him.

My point is as it always is, what you derived from those text messages shaped your thinking in a way that may or may not have been correct. You assumed that because OM was an immature pud that you would get your W back. Of course you would because eventually she would have to choose her mature H and family over THAT alternative.

I admit that you did get some PMA benefits from snooping but I also think your fall would have been greater (notice WOULD HAVE been) if things didn't work out.

I just think that snooping is paying ultimate respect to the affair and the idea that the more we know about it, the better off we'll be is totally natural and in my opinion, totally false.

Yes, you did luck out that the info YOU saw helped you maintain, but that has a lot more to do with your already good handle on things, and ability to reason out that 20 year old+no money=failed relationship with W. Many people would have taken that info MUCH differently; 20 year old OM, OMG, how do I compete with THAT. He is probably in GREAT shape, etc. He doesn't have any money so that means W is going to drain our bank accounts to support him. He "needs" her, which is a strong appeal to her as a "nurturing" type person...etc...etc...etc...damn...damn...damn.

You see my point. You CHOSE to make what you found a positive. Most of us have a REALLY hard time doing that.

GH