I find Schnarch a bit hard to follow; what does he say is the way to get what is rightfully her dilemna back ONTO her? If my wife feels pressure if I initiate, and if she feels pressure when I DON'T initiate, but talk about my lack of satisfaction with our love life, and if she feels pressure when I neither initiate NOR talk about it (but she "knows what I'm thinking", and she "knows I'm dissatisfied"), then what's the answer?
Let me describe womanese here. Your W is trying to distract you from the topic at hand. She is assigning the pressure she feels to you, saying it is coming from you, regardless of whether or not you initiate. That is sheer bs. The pressure she feels comes from her but she is trying to distract you and herself from making a choice because she knows that the choice could define the future of your R. Of course she "knows" that you want sex sometime regardless of whether or not you initiate but that doesn't mean that the pressure comes from you. Make sense? How to put that dilemma back on her? "Well, W, I'm sorry to hear that you are feeling pressured. You are right to feel that way because I do want sex on a regular basis. I do not want to live in a sexless M. What do you want?"
DAMMIT, I just spent 15 minutes on a reply, and somehow I lost it all. I'll write more later, Karen, but thanks for the translation, and suffice to say for now that:
-- I HAVE asked her -- she told me what she wanted me to work on (and they were not small, easy things for me) -- I did them -- she's responded with NOTHING of what I've said I want
Do you still want sex? If so, at some point you have to intiate or bring it up. If she responds by citing "pressure" you can respond like so... " I just asked you if you want to have sex. Feel free to say yes or no but do not tell me that I am putting undue pressure on you. I want to have sex you can choose yes or no freely." No? Ok, then try again some other time. At some point the saying no out loud and whining about pressure will wear thin even for her.
As I am saying this I am thinking that I will likely need to do something similar. I am still collecting myself for the next bout in this battle.
"Do you still want sex?" Wow, those five words kinda hit me, for their powerful simplicity. I'm still trying to think of what my answer is.
I guess, if you look at how I've reacted to my wife's issues (giving up), you could make the case that I really DON'T want sex, or at least I don't want it BAD enough to have to go ahead and deal with the steps that are going to be necessary for us to reinstitute our sex lives.
I know this: I know that I clearly DON'T want it, if she's not "there", and obviously only doing it to be dutiful. Does that make me CeMar, but a slightly better writer? Maybe. But I don't want SEX; I want my beautiful wife to WANT to have sex, and to want to have it with ME.
I agree with you. Dr. Harley from "His Needs/Her Needs" also agrees with you. To reapir a SSM with a LD female REQUIRES that the LD female find a way to "Desire" . That is straight out of his workbook that goes along with "His Needs/Her Needs". Do you think your wife really understands this concept?
Not trying to bust your chops but I'm suggesting that sometimes if we don't clarify some basic questions then we don't really know what we are looking for. No one has any magic answers. Everyone has to chart their own path.
OK guys listen up. I am here posting as HDW with LDH. When I came back to the boards our SL was down to once a month usually with me initiating. Historically we have had long patches where I have felt higher D than H but I have also heard him complaining that I am not giving enough sex either.
The thing is last night I had a HUGE insight into how this whole LDW thing gets started. Our sitch has recently been improving and we have ML much more often and things are clicking. Night before last H initiated, he was pretty drunk and as a result (as he openly admitted) he was a bit desensitized and couldn’t “get there”. I laughingly said I would take full advantage and sure enough I clocked up about 7 O’s, there was a lot of EC too and then finally he O’d too. The final O that I had was (to me) that rare and special truly satisfying deep O. And here I have to say that when this happens I feel emptied of any further desire for sex. The next night (yesterday) H initiated again, and I flat out had NO DESIRE the previous night really had filled up my O tank. Now if I had not known what I know now, if I had not been posting these boards, if I had not known how dangerous it is to cross that line, I would just, as good-naturedly as possible, have shrugged off my H’s advances. Like someone pressing a 4th slice of chocolate cake on you after you’ve just eaten the biggest meal of your life. With the best will in the world you really can’t use any more. But sex is not food and a full love tank is not a full stomach so I was able (and it was a struggle) to get past the lack of desire and do it for H. Now I know a lot of you guys complain about W’s that just do it “for you” and I can understand that. The difference in the way I did it for H was that I started by explaining how incredibly satisfying the night before had been and then I whole heartedly got into holding him, kissing him and being full on affectionate with him while he did his stuff.
I think it is really easy to see how a W who does not have the insight I have spent a lot of time and trouble in getting to would not have been able to react this way, would have shrugged H off, would have ended up with him feeling PO’d and more grabby more needy. H then tries it again next night but the dynamic is already a little off kilter and all it takes is a little bad luck, bad communication for each to become further entrenched in their positions.
The only way to release that pressure you say your W’s feel is to really release it. And the only way you can do that is to look inside yourselves for ways to really “do it for her”. Just let go of the need to have sex, let it float away from you. Do not fear this, free yourself somehow of that need and that pressure that she says she feels even when you don’t do or say anything really will go away. How do I know this, because I freed myself of the need to protect myself from H’s advances.
If W offers “duty sex” take it and be glad, truly glad, show her the affection you feel, make her feel like she has done a good thing not something second best. Reward her efforts. She will feel she has done a good thing, she will want to do that good thing again. Don’t get into the mindset of thinking “well she’ll just thinks that’s good enough”. That’s not how people work, reward the good and she will strive harder not less.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Quote: If W offers “duty sex” take it and be glad, truly glad, show her the affection you feel, make her feel like she has done a good thing not something second best. Reward her efforts. She will feel she has done a good thing, she will want to do that good thing again. Don’t get into the mindset of thinking “well she’ll just thinks that’s good enough”. That’s not how people work, reward the good and she will strive harder not less.
Hmmm. As one that has provided 'duty sex' on occasion (when I feel that H is going to lose the plot soon), I have to say that I just want it over with and hope that it never happens again. I'm doing something I really have no desire to, but if I don't my life will be hell until I have sex. If the partner offering is happy to provide it then fine, you just have to make sure that is the case. I can only offer my perspective in my R.
CeMar sounds so much like my H it frightens me. My H has said similar things as CeMar such as 'If I knew this was going to happen I would never have married you'. Well, I may have changed, but he has to realise that he has also. A lot of changes have been due to having children - hormones, sleepless nights, no time to myself except when the kids are in bed.
Up until only a few years ago, H was not overly affectionate or romantic but he did like his sex - that hasn't changed! It took me a long time to come to terms with the 'he isn't the holding hands while walking down the street type of guy' and I never tried to make him something he wasn't. So, for 10 years or so we went along with sex being the only way that he showed affection for me and that was fine with me. Sex was ok, but I never O'd much. Then the first child came along. I was breasfeeding, not sleeping, hardly ever left the house except to go to the supermarket. I did not feel very sexy and got very resentful that H still had a life - he could come and go as he pleased and got to talk to adults! Sleep took precedence over sex and I got really irritated when H thought he needed sex more than I needed sleep. He also started groping me a lot more, which was just intolerable as I felt like a piece of meat. A cow for the baby and a toy for the H. We stopped having sex and I didn't miss it. The days, weeks and months went by until H would blow up and I would realise how long it actually had been.
So that's what it was like until our 2nd child was 18 months old - a year ago. Since then we have been trying to work on things. I have seen doctors, which couldn't help with my problems, I have taken herbal remedies, read SSM and Passionate Marriage and we have seen counsellors together. You know what the biggest problem ended up being? Thinking and talking about sex all the time and how much of a failure I was. I just got so sick of the whole subject that I felt like I was on overload (this is part of the pressure I was talking about in my other post) I developed an automatic cut off switch. The subject came up and I would just tune out. My H said I was a 'cold, heartless bitch' and I suppose I was. It was either that or go completely insane.
So I have been trying not to think about things too much, that's why I haven't been around for a while. Trying to get into a better headspace. Now I just have to work out how to enjoy sex again.
Jeez, sorry about the long post, maybe it will give CeMar an insight to the other side of his M.
It can't come quickly enough
And now you've spent your life
Waiting for this moment
And when you finally saw it come
It passed you by and left you so defeated.
Scissor Sisters - 'It Can't Come Quickly Enough'
I think you summed up one of the perspectives of an LDW very well. I could easily relate to many things you said back in my LD days as well.
I hope it does give CeMar something to think about. Hopefully one of these days he will take responsibility for his role in the situation he now finds himself in within his M. Many people have encouraged him to look within himself, so far I have yet to see him do this....to recognize how he's contributed to his own problem. He still continually blames her for everything.
