I have been using some very close co-workers as armchair counselors and today I was discussing my SSM dilemma with one female and seeking advice on how to approach W about certain issues.
This co-worker recommended I ask W not if she loved me but rather whether she is "in love with me." She was adamant about the importance of the distinction for most women. I had never really thought about it.
I would like to know from any of you how you draw the distinction, if at all.
Also, how should I approach my insecure and LDW about this, if at all.
Hi GG- welcome. I think you should be like a good lawyer and never ask a leading question that you do not know the answer to. How do you think your situation will be improved by asking such a question? How will one answer mean something different from the other answer? I think that is not a good question... if she says she's NOT in love with you, can you handle that? If she says she IS in love with you, you'll ask yourself (or her) why don't I feel like you are? If she says she loves you but is not IN LOVE with you-- yuck... I don't think that will further the cause of your sitch, whatever it is.
It's likely that both of you are "insecure," if by that we mean that each of you is wondering what the other one is thinking...
Hmm…I don’t know goodguy59. If you are suffering the full force of SSM issues right now, do you really want to press your W into a corner and make her answer that? I guess this depends on how you feel that your W might respond. On the flip side, if you suspect there might be some one else and you need this answer to feel sane, then ask away.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
Wow, what a great response. (Although you did not make the distinction, I get your point about my question whether to ask such a question and believe it to be a valid one.)
I am in a classic SSM. I also believe that my W suffers from mild depression (sleeps alot, doesn't enjoy much from life, laughs very little) I would also describe her as a confrontational communicator which makes discussions about our sex life extremely difficult and really non-existent. I respond in the ways described in the book and am having a difficult time finding ways to change my behavior and response to get a different behavior and response from her. I usually keep reminding myself that she is simply not interested and only initiate a few times a month so as not to cause conflict.
We ML about once per month with me always the initiator. She shys away from physical touch and does not respond well to my verbal expressions of love and affection. She simply is not an affectionate person. She is an act of service kind of person.
We have S17 and D15.
I have been having more and more thoughts of Sep. and D as I question whether I can go through the rest of my life in a R with no outward signs of affection (either physical or other) from the person whom I have, up until this point dedicated my life to.
Cetainly there is more to my sitch but for now, that is the nutshell.
Just posted about this on my own thread. I think Lil is right here. Why such a distinction between "love" and "in love". Most S's will admit to loving their S. True romantics like to use the term "in love" to somehow prove that the R?M is better than other R/M's. I've asked many of my girlfriend's this question and almost everyone of them laughed at the term "in love". These are practical women, obviously. Also all on first M's and while they admit to common M struggles, they all report to be quite happy with their M. I think I needed to take a note from their book because I was always looking at my M through "romantic" eyes. That I should have this wonderful, passionate M that you see in movies and read about in books. True love is not like that GoodGuy. True love is about working your azz off every day to make the M thrive. My guess is that those people who constantly seek the "in love" R are more likely to have A's and also get D. Romantic love is NOT a solid basis for a long-term M. I like it as much as the next person, don't get me wrong, but I don't think I should be basing my M on these romantic notions.
LFL - Doesn't need to be "in love." Just wants some hot sex dammit!
I have been having more and more thoughts of Sep. and D as I question whether I can go through the rest of my life in a R with no outward signs of affection (either physical or other) from the person whom I have, up until this point dedicated my life to.
Ok, this I can agree with. But this has nothing to do with being "in love." Affection/Sex is an important part of M because it is a loving thing to do. I think the distinction has to be made that you can be happy in your M if your W makes the EFFORT and FOLLOWS THROUGH on more affection/sex. But if you are looking for some "in love" feelings to flow to and from you both, you may be setting yourself up for disappointment. Again, I feel great love for my H and from my H. We are affectionate every day and have sex 1-2x a week. But those "in love" chemicals are not flowing. The butterflies aren't there. I'm ok with this because again, M and Love for your S is ultimately a choice that you have to make and work hard to maintain everyday. If your W is not participating in creating a loving M, you certainly have a problem. Maybe you could be very specific with her about what sort of expectations you have, loving gestures every day, sex a certain # of x a month. etc She should also be dealing with her depression. My H went through depression too and it can really F-up the SL along with everything else.
I think you feel like you are "in love" when you are sexually infatuated with someone that you also "love". For instance, I was infatuated with Mick Jagger when I was 15. I love my H (even though I currently am considering ending the relationship) and I have felt like I was "in love" with him off and on throughout our relationship. I think it is possible to have a long term relationship in which you could pretty much continuously feel "in love" with your partner and have that feeling returned. I think it is also quite rare and something most people shouldn't plan on attaining in their lifetime. Most of us are probably better off settling for passionate sex or committed love and not hoping to have both. We should just keep dollar cost averaging our love investment into our current relationships and keep our love bank books tucked securely under our mattresses. Surely such sensible behavior will pay off in the end. Remember risk aversion is the right road to happiness in all human endeavor. Who wants to be "in love" if first you have to fall and then rely on hope or faith alone that someone will be there to catch you?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
From the group it sounds as if most make no distinction between "being in love" and infatuation, which makes sense to me and why I was so taken off guard by my colleague's ideas about this. My belief all along has been that the butterfly feelings go away and are replaced by respect and admiration. What should continue is outward "love actions"; positive affirmations of the love, respect and admiration between the two such as loving words and, of course, sex.
I guess that I have been feeling for many years that those oringinal "butterflies-in-the-stomach" feelings have not been replaced or evolved into the feelings and actions necessary to sustain a healthy R.
I am new to the message boards and really appreciate the honest responses.
BTW, I have been reading R/M book after R/M book for years looking for answers to how I got here and if there is a way to a better R. I describe my M as a mostly utilitarian one. What seems to matter most to my W is getting things done to get the day, or simply to co-exist and maintain a household. She doesn't seem to need more. Well, by God, I do and I am just too afraid to get our R off center.
Lilliperl's statement about both me and W being insecure struck a difficult chord with me because I consider myself to be very secure in who I am as a person and what my values are except when it comes to my W and M. We are such opposites. She is confrontational while I avoid it. This leads to no meaningful conversations about our R. Over time, I have become resentful of the W and M and need to overcome my fear of a confrontation with her.
The funny thing is that I am a good communicator in my work and am admired for my tact. Yet nothing that I can say to W that even suggests unhappiness about the R leads to her flying off the handle and manipulation of me with her anger.
She has cried over little things walked out of the house for little more. As recently as last week she cried most of the night because I rolled away from her in the bed. I believe that she took this as a hostile act on my part, when I was simply giving up on getting her aroused. She had rejected me for no apparent reason the previous 4 nights and for some reason that particular night had an interest in sex but never said anything and infact sent out no positive signals as I tried to initiate. There is never a verbal affirmation of her acceptance to my advances.
Well as you can tell, I have much to get off my chest and as I continue to post and reply to the message boards, I am sure more will surface.
Yeah, Lil’s got a pair of those secret X-ray glasses that can see into your soul! It sounds like she’s got you right. Insecurity is in the mix. I’ll even go her one better, I see signs of self pity in both of you too. There is a lot of stuff running under the surface. Can you give us more background? Why is your W so insecure that she lashes out at the mention of disloyalty to her (i.e., your “unhappiness about the R”).
The interesting thing to me is your wife plays both ends of the spectrum… I’ve not seen that before. You say she can fly off the handle with her anger, is aggressive, yet she plays the sympathy and martyr card with her crying, even at little things, a passive aggressive ploy. Usually manipulation is along one theme – anger and intimidation or martyrdom and self deprecation… They are both means to maintain control but using them together is a strange mix and really odd…
Does she shy from physical touch only with you, or just men, or everyone, including your kids? What is she depressed about? Does she have mood swings? I am wondering if there is more than just a relationship issue here or if there could be a more serious disorder involved… a little too early to tell. Can you give us more background?
Here is a bit more background. My W is not very affectionate to either of the kids and is usually in a very confrontational mode with both. My kids have expressed their frustration with W to me on several times. The situation is particularly hard on my daughter who has seen a C (at my W's objections.) The C expressed concern to me that there were conflicts in the family that need to addressed. This never went any further.
W has also struggled with very difficult and long menstrual cycles. Usually she is either menstrating or suffering from PMS for AT LEAST two weeks every month. She has recieved perscriptions for depression after seeing Dr. about moodiness associated with her cycle but only took once or twice because they made her feel weird.
In December she recieved an implant in her uterus that will eventually stop her periods. Since then she has had less mood swings and less severe cylces.
All of this aside, our SL has been once per month since our D was born nearly 16 years ago and always with me the initiator.
I spoke with her mother a few months ago and asked what her relationship with her H was like. My W is very much like her father so much so that her family makes comments about this often. I have never seen her Father outwardly express affecion or love for her Mother. My Mother-in-law revealed that her husband has never told her he loves her in more than 40 years of marriage. I was very saddened by this. I do not know what their SL is or has been like but would like to know. I have a good relationship with my Mother-in-law and think that I can ask.
From this I conclude that W never got any genuine affection from her Father and never saw him express love in a physical or verbal way to her Mother. As the theory goes, this is what she knows about marriage and perhaps believes that this is how a H and W should interact.
My W does not respond well to my compliments about her beauty or her caring side (which she does have.) Once, after complimenting her on how radiant she was, she seemed upset so I asked her about why she didn't say thank you or return a happy response. She had trouble verbalizing her emotions and appeared very uneasy.
Well, there is more, but I gotta go now.
Keep up the feedback. I will probably be on later tonight.
