LFL, I am convinced that the best partner is the one who is most willing to make efforts to improve the marriage ( thanks, Lil, for this insight). It really doesn't matter what the issues are. We are all on this board because our partners are not willing to truly make the effort. Your H reverts back to avoidance and non sexuality...the question becomes...do we nudge our spouses along when they are regressing or do we wait for them to pull it together and make the effort? I have heard conflicting advice on the BB...don't jump in and rescue, versus, don't wait for things to really fall apart---jump in. My advice to you falls somehwere in the middle...instead of doing nothing or jumping in, you might want to take a little step to get things on track.
LFL: The problem I have with me being the one to do the initiating is that whole assertive/submissive biology thing I have stuck in my head. I WANT the man to initiate. I guarantee that your H knows this. Though, I doubt that he is holding back just to hurt you. On the contrary, I would be willing to bet you that your H probably has the topic of sex cross his mind a number of times an hour when he is around you. Considering your intense needs LFL, I am nearly certain that your body language broadcasts your desires clearer than a road side billboard. The problem is that your H is not interpreting your needs as a positive. If he has self confidence and depression issues, the thought of sex crossing his mind probably actually makes him feel worse and act more timid. I guess what I am trying to say is that it is not realistic to expect him to be the initiator right now because his mental state does not seem to be conducive to that happening. That is in no way a measure of how sexy and appealing you are to him. Thus, you really should try your best to lessen how much this hurts your feelings.
The cycle that you are stuck in will only resolve itself when you H’s confidence goes up, he gets a hold of his depression, and he finds the personal motivation to improve. If you want to be supportive of his progress, then you have to try your best to keep from excessively punishing him. Holding out on sex right now is definitely a form of punishing him. By holding out, you are sending a man that already has feelings of inadequacy a message that he has sunk so low that now you don’t even want him any more. Even worse, if you let this continue, the problem will escalate to something far worse once you two start snapping at each other due to this tension. My friendly advice to you is that I would suggest you reconsider your hold out tactic. Of course, keep your own happiness and needs as your first priority. Though, from there, it would really be best to give all you can to help reduce tension and create an emotional environment that gives your H the best possible footing to attack his emotional issues. In the mean time, if you need to vent and blow off steam, you have a lot of caring people here happy to listen.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
Ok, another night of no sex. We've been very "nice and pleasant" to each other. barf But I'm trying to do a 180 here and not be a pest about it. He's been affectionate, little kisses, certainly not open mouth, and we are getting along fine. But there is this unspoken tension between us. Hate that feeling. some guys that are not totally into themselves/self centered also need clues I'm sure you're right Lou. Several people have said to maybe give him a little "nudge" but I'm still waiting it out for now. And the nudge would have to pretty obvious for H to "get it." Meaning fairly openly sexual. Otherwise, we're just being affectionate with each other. Big difference. I don't want to be the one to do that all the time. At least not this week.
Hi IHJ do we nudge our spouses along when they are regressing or do we wait for them to pull it together and make the effort? I have heard conflicting advice on the BB...don't jump in and rescue, versus, don't wait for things to really fall apart---jump in. My advice to you falls somehwere in the middle...instead of doing nothing or jumping in, you might want to take a little step to get things on track. I wouldn't say things are "off the track", but like I said in the last post, unless I blatantly do something sexual, my H will read it as simply affection. Why can't he be the one to step up to the plate? He's the man. He KNOWS I want him to do this and yet, still, something prevents him from maying the effort. I'm going this week in non-initiating mode and will re-evaluate on Sunday.
Hi Brian I doubt that he is holding back just to hurt you. I agree with this. I think he really is just so fearful of our past problems resurfacing that once again, he simply avoids. He'd rather have "pleasant and no SL" than "risk a fight with SL". He avoids conflict at all costs, including the cost of sex. I hate that. Considering your intense needs LFL, I am nearly certain that your body language broadcasts your desires clearer than a road side billboard. I don't know about this one Brian. I think I can "cover" pretty well in front of H. Inside I may be going stir-crazy but when I sense any rejection from him, I'll be dammed if I show him how I'm feeling. Part of the problem maybe, buy this is part of the cycle. The problem is that your H is not interpreting your needs as a positive. If he has self confidence and depression issues, the thought of sex crossing his mind probably actually makes him feel worse and act more timid. I guess what I am trying to say is that it is not realistic to expect him to be the initiator right now because his mental state does not seem to be conducive to that happening. My H is not depressed at this time. But part of his ingrained personality is to be non-assertive, especially sexually. He freaks out sometimes at my level of sexual "deviation"(?) Lol. For instance, I told him flat out that I like him to hold me down, maybe pull my hair, he interprets that as a "rape" fantasy and thinks that's basically perverted. I think the quote was "I'm not going to rape my W!" I tried to explain that it is hardly rape if I WANT that to happen, but it's not about my wants, it's about his comfort. That sexual act is about him showing a side of himself that I would find a big turn-on, him being aggressive, but that's so not him. Maybe that was too over the edge? Better start out smaller. That is in no way a measure of how sexy and appealing you are to him. Thus, you really should try your best to lessen how much this hurts your feelings.
I know. But the more I tell him about who I really am as a sexual person, the more I intimidate him. I can see it in his body language and his outright language. That is hurtful to me. So am I supposed to supress who I am? I want to take more of the GEL approach and be who I really am but H is NOT open to that at all. I feel stuck. The cycle that you are stuck in will only resolve itself when you H’s confidence goes up Maybe but I doubt it. He is just a very rigid person. He can be confident and yet say flat out he is not doing a, b, c. He does that now. A less than confident person would probably try and humor me somewhat, to appease me, but maybe I am wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. If you want to be supportive of his progress, then you have to try your best to keep from excessively punishing him. Right. And I think I've come a long way in making progress in this area. But the avoidance issue is still in full effect. Holding out on sex right now is definitely a form of punishing him. By holding out, you are sending a man that already has feelings of inadequacy a message that he has sunk so low that now you don’t even want him any more. Wrong. You're missing the point. I'm not "holding out" in the sense that if he approaches I will shut him down. To the contrary. I'll be thrilled if he initiates and make sure not to critique the "performance." Just enjoy it. I just want him to show me that he finds me sexually desirable by initiating and Wanting sex with me. When I initiate, I always have in the back of my mind that he is just doing it because I want to. it would really be best to give all you can to help reduce tension and create an emotional environment that gives your H the best possible footing to attack his emotional issues. In the mean time, if you need to vent and blow off steam, you have a lot of caring people here happy to listen. Thanks Brian. I will do that. This board is a great place to vent so that I don't snap at H. But I'm still carrying out the no initiating plan for now. We'll see how it goes.
Ok, another night of no sex. We've been very "nice and pleasant" to each other. Barf This is obviously really driving the dagger in deeper. I am so sorry.
I'll be dammed if I show him how I'm feeling. Ack…I am really sorry to hear you say this too. You must feel so pent up and isolated not being able to actually express how you feel. I know this is much easier to talk about than live, but what do you think would happen if you just turned over a leaf of being completely honest and direct with your H about your feelings and desires? When was the last time you felt able to actually just be completely open and free?
Several people have said to maybe give him a little "nudge" Instead of a nudge, what about setting up a date night? Maybe come straight out in the open and say, “Hey H. It seems that we have both been a little caught up and distracted lately so maybe it is time to set aside a little romantic time for us to reconnect? I was thinking maybe we should get a baby sitter, go to dinner on Friday, and then check into this really romantic hotel I read about?”
For instance, I told him flat out that I like him to hold me down, maybe pull my hair, he interprets that as a "rape" fantasy and thinks that's basically perverted. I think the quote was "I'm not going to rape my W!" Hmm…I am afraid that I would have to side with your H a little bit here. Personally, I am all for light BDSM such as silk scarves, loosely tied down, no struggle hold down, and other things that imply restraint but do not really force it. Though, if there is any struggle involved that even resembles distress, then game over. Yes….and um, not a chance at hair pulling either. Personally, I don’t want to tie sex and violence. I am guessing that your H probably feels the same way. I am not so sure that your H is being unreasonable here. Plus Lusty, this topic is a bit more on the advanced side as it requires trust and a deep connection. It might be a good idea to sideline this goal until you get a bit farther along.
the more I tell him about who I really am as a sexual person, the more I intimidate him I am really not sure what to say here other than this must be a tough place to be.
..am I supposed to supress who I am? I want to take more of the GEL approach and be who I really am but H is NOT open to that at all. I feel stuck. No more suppressing! Yes, you definitely need to be true to yourself. There is no point in working out improvements with your H if the improvements don’t actually yield results that you would be happy with. I definitely agree with the wise GEL that you need to be true to yourself and let your real feelings be known. Your H will either learn to accept you as you are or come to the conclusion that he cannot. Either way, you will make progress.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
When was the last time you felt able to actually just be completely open and free?
Never. That doesn't go over well with H. what do you think would happen if you just turned over a leaf of being completely honest and direct with your H about your feelings and desires? I'd probably scare him away for good. That's half-joking. I just don't think he is ready or wants to hear about my "true" feelings. When I have attempted to go there in the past, he shuts down. Instead of a nudge, what about setting up a date night? Maybe come straight out in the open and say, “Hey H. It seems that we have both been a little caught up and distracted lately so maybe it is time to set aside a little romantic time for us to reconnect? I was thinking maybe we should get a baby sitter, go to dinner on Friday, and then check into this really romantic hotel I read about?”
Come to think of it. We are doing an overnight in another city next month. Almost forgot. All planned by him too. Hope he's not holding out til then though to make his move. Hmm…I am afraid that I would have to side with your H a little bit here. Personally, I am all for light BDSM such as silk scarves, loosely tied down, no struggle hold down, and other things that imply restraint but do not really force it. Though, if there is any struggle involved that even resembles distress, then game over. Yes….and um, not a chance at hair pulling either. Personally, I don’t want to tie sex and violence. I am guessing that your H probably feels the same way. I am not so sure that your H is being unreasonable here. Thanks for your take in this. And just to clarify, I really have no interest in being tied up or anything having to do with too many props. That would make me feel like I was at his total control and that's not what I'm going for here. I want to feel his bare hands on me in a forceful way. Maybe that is just symbolic of the larger issue of assertiveness in our M. No hair pulling? I don't mean ripping it out of someone's head. I just mean a slight to medium tug. I don't see what so weird about that. I don’t want to tie sex and violence. Now you sound like my H. That's a very PC thing to say but the truth of the matter is I don't see it as "violence." Violence is doing something to someone that they do not want done to them (I think). My scenario is different. Plus Lusty, this topic is a bit more on the advanced side as it requires trust and a deep connection. Well, I agree it's on the advance side but not because it requires trust and deep connection. I did this with OM all the time. I'm sure H is reading into my newfound sexual experimentation with him as a reflection of what I did do with OM, so maybe that is more central to the problem. No more suppressing! Yes, you definitely need to be true to yourself. There is no point in working out improvements with your H if the improvements don’t actually yield results that you would be happy with. I definitely agree with the wise GEL that you need to be true to yourself and let your real feelings be known. Your H will either learn to accept you as you are or come to the conclusion that he cannot. Either way, you will make progress.
Either I suppress my sexuality or my H thinks I'm a "freak." Gee, which choice to take.
Never. That doesn't go over well with H. Well, that is his problem to work on then, not yours. You can be there by his side and help him work through it. Though, you cannot and should not suppress your feelings and true self. To do so would be stifling, suffocating, and ultimately destructive.
I'd probably scare him away for good. That's half-joking. I just don't think he is ready or wants to hear about my "true" feelings. When I have attempted to go there in the past, he shuts down. Well, then he shuts down for a while, walks away, thinks about, and then works on the source of his tension. Lusty, you are not happy now, nor will you be happy in the long run, if you keep catering solely to his needs and ignore your own. He is a strong man. He will learn to deal with his own insecurity and issues. Lay it out there, let him get his nose bloodied, and give him a chance to work through it. Yes, this is a risky approach, but sitting back and following your current path is sure doom. I think you know that.
I want to feel his bare hands on me in a forceful way. Oh, sure, most women I have met do. That is kind of catering to the alpha attraction. I have no problem with that.
No hair pulling? I don't mean ripping it out of someone's head. I just mean a slight to medium tug. I don't see what so weird about that. Obviously other men are totally fine with this. Though, I personally see hair pulling as an aggressive act no matter what kind of spin is put on it. Consequently, I won’t do it. I am not sure what “normal” is in this regard, but I think your H’s viewpoints on this deserve respect and understanding.
Violence is doing something to someone that they do not want done to them (I think). My scenario is different. I disagree. In this case, violence is what ever your H feels it is. You have to remember that we all have different thresholds. Consequently, it is important to be sensitive to other’s viewpoints.
I did this with OM all the time. I'm sure H is reading into my newfound sexual experimentation with him as a reflection of what I did do with OM, so maybe that is more central to the problem. OH NO….wait.. you have not discussed OM sexual details with your H have you? How much have you told your H about that? What kind of impressions does your H have? This could be a huge issue right here.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
can be there by his side and help him work through it. That is what I am doing. I want this M to work or I wouldn't be here at all. I love him. We are just trying to figure out how to live with each of our very different personalites. I chose my H for some very good reasons and I need to remember that. Whether or not he fulfills my every sexual fantasy is not the issue. I can live without that, but I want to be able to be myself to, and be comfortable sharing with him. It's really more about the emotional aspects more than anything else. I feel stifled with him at times, that's what I want changed. catering to the alpha attraction I guess so. But that's what I like, sometimes. I wouldn't want him to completely change, I love many things about him that are not Alpha at all. It's just the mixture I find attractive. Can't have everything though. I personally see hair pulling as an aggressive act no matter what kind of spin is put on it. Consequently, I won’t do it. I am not sure what “normal” is in this regard, but I think your H’s viewpoints on this deserve respect and understanding.
Yes, it is aggressive, but to me that is different than violent. Semantics I guess. And you are so right. I need to respect his limits/boundaries on this issue. I need to stop being a spoiled brat and expecting to get what I want on this one. I'm dropping it. OH NO….wait.. you have not discussed OM sexual details with your H have you? How much have you told your H about that? What kind of impressions does your H have? This could be a huge issue right here.
Look, my H is fully aware of the sexual R I had while we were separated. He is man enough to understand that I went on with my life when he abandoned me and does not judge my choices. He has said I understand that you had a sexual R with someone else, I just don't want to hear the details. When the sexual aggression issues were discussed within our own M, he did ask at one point if OM was aggressive like that. I answered honestly and said yes. I'm sure that is not helping the situation and so out of respect for my H, I am not going to be discussing anymore of that type of sex act. It's not his thing to begin with and on top of it he probably has negative associations with OM. Can't blame him at all. That kind of reminds me of HeatherG's situation with her truck. She should get rid of it if her H is going to harbor resentment. My H probably harbors resentment about the OM although he has been wonderful about not rubbing that in my face. Just like I am trying to not rub it in his face that he left. It's not a tit for tat scenario luckily. But you are so right, that is probably a HUGE piece of the puzzle and I best stay right away from that can of worms.
LFL You really seem to have a very good handle on where you R is. I am really impressed by your level of introspection, honesty, caring, and candor. Once again, I restate that your H is a very lucky man on so many levels.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
Gee, which choice to take.