That seems to be a recurring theme here on the board...many of us have H's who avoid conflict, have difficulty expressing feelings, and just fuel the communication problems with their passivity. I know how infuriating this can be...and to top it off, rejection.
I am seeing in my marriage that things tend to turn around quicker, so hopefully tonite or tomorrow you guys will be on the right track.
Thanks IHJ, but even chocolate right now does not sound appealing. I'm on my pity pot and can't even get myself in a good enough mood to enjoy a favorite chocolaty treat. Boo hoo to me. I'm sure we will bounce back but it's the cycle of never really getting to some sense of M stability/happiness/contentment that drives me insane at times. I just feel like I am in a constant struggle to find some...passion...with my H, whether that is sexually, emotionally, any way at all.
The thing I keep thinking about your sich is that you would have been better off if your H hadn't wanted to reconcile because he was feeling "pathetic". I mean it would have been better if something had happened while you were separated that made him feel like he was quite the "man-o'steel" and he was freely choosing "reconcile with wife" from a variety of good options.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Oh Mojo I can't go down that road, the what if's. It's hard enough dealing with all of this, let alone always wondering what would have happened if we didn't reconcile. Would I have found that ideal guy? Who knows. No one is ideal. But it does frustrate me that H and I are still having to deal with what I think really boils down to very different personality types, at least related to our Need for passion. I feel like I am a passioanate person and he...just isn't. I love him, find him one of the most interesting people I know, best friend and all, but passion wise we just don't click, may never click. The only way this will work is if I lower my standards. It's as simple/impossible as that.
LustForLife I am very sorry to hear that you had such a tough weekend. I know you have been working so hard to try and be patient with you H. This type of setback must have really seemed discouraging. Plus, your H managed to hit all your sensitive areas full force. Ouch.
He could barely say he was pissed off that we were fighting. He kept saying he was "hurt", "upset", "confused" etc but Never angry. I could tell he was saying things to try and just end the fight but that was pissing me off more because he always tries to conflict avoid. Why can't he just be Real with me and show some Real F-ing emotions!!! In case it helps, my guess is you did not see anger emotions from him simply because he was not feeling those emotions at the time. You have been pretty vocal here that you wish your H was more alpha, had more sex, showed more fire, and basically acted more the way that you do. If you have been that clearly vocal here, then your H most definitely knows these things too. Consequently, he is probably feeling like he is disappointing you and not living up to your expectations at a baseline level. Feeling like you are letting some one you love down can really make a guy feel like rejected, like less of a man, and suck confidence right away. If he was in fact thinking those things, then when your fight rolled around on Friday, he was probably focusing on those “hurt” and “upset” feelings and less on the anger feelings like you were. Then, based on your post, I am going to guess that you probably started to yell at him and get visibly angry. If so, then your reactions would have only fed his inadequacy fears which in fact would have made the problem you are complaining about worse. This sounds to be a really vicious cycle that you two are in right now. Well, that is my guess. Though, of course you were there, so what do you think? Any credence to my theory? Why do you feel he focused on hurt instead of anger like you were? Also, why is it so important to you that he vent anger in the way you want? What does it feel like to you when he stays calm and somber while you are seething with anger?
On this same topic, LFL, what were your parents like growing up in this regard? As a child, did you see your parents yelling at each other a lot? Was one parent more calm and collected while the other was more fiery? What about other BFs? Have you historically been attracted to men that would yell and be dominate in arguments? Now, to flip this around, why is it so hard for you to control your anger and communicate the way your H wants to? What happens when you two exchange frustrations in a clam fashion? Do you feel he does not understand or hear what you are saying?
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
This type of setback must have really seemed discouraging. Plus, your H managed to hit all your sensitive areas full force. Ouch. Yes, I do feel discouraged right now. In a bad place mentally but I am also very aware of it so that helps keep it somewhat in check. To be outright rejected from H and then, last night, he still shows no interest in me, really hurts. I'm annoyed, frustrated, feeling kind of hopeless. IT's not like things are awful. We are getting along well, things are "fine" in that sense, but the SL just is a continual struggle.
You have been pretty vocal here that you wish your H was more alpha, had more sex, showed more fire, and basically acted more the way that you do. If you have been that clearly vocal here, then your H most definitely knows these things too. Consequently, he is probably feeling like he is disappointing you and not living up to your expectations at a baseline level. Feeling like you are letting some one you love down can really make a guy feel like rejected, like less of a man, and suck confidence right away. It is a vicious cycle with us. He is probably feeling like I am disappointed in him, which I have to admit that I am. I can forgive the drunken Saturday night incident, but he KNEW I was interested and even made a comment "maybe later" or something like that. Well, later came and went and come to think of it, I don't think he even gave me a kiss goodnight last night. Probably thought it might lead to more and Avoided me. I know, don't put thoughts in his head, but I know that man very well and I'd bet big money that he avoided touching me like the plague yesterday because he didn't want to have sex.
Why do you feel he focused on hurt instead of anger like you were? Also, why is it so important to you that he vent anger in the way you want? What does it feel like to you when he stays calm and somber while you are seething with anger?
I feel like he lacks passion for me/us when he doesn't express himself. He is like this in and out of the bedroom. It is safer for him to stay "hurt" than to be "angry. Lot of that guets into his FOO where his Mom went balistic if people stood up to her so I'm sure he sees some of that in me and shuts down, the way he did as a child. He is fully aware of this FOO issue and is working on it in IC. But it doesn't mean it's easily fixed.
On this same topic, LFL, what were your parents like growing up in this regard? As a child, did you see your parents yelling at each other a lot? Was one parent more calm and collected while the other was more fiery? My Dad was completely unemotional. Not too different from my H, although even more extreme. I don't think I've seen my Dad angry, sad, hurt, anything. At least he Never showed it to me. Probably why I'm getting pissy with H for the same behaviors. Damm FOO. My Mom was more emotional but not overly. She got angry very easily though with my Dad. I even recall her losing it on him once and trying to hit him when he was ignoring her. That was the one and only incident. I remember my Dad proceeded to say "I don't need this" and went for a long car ride to escape the chaos. Never saw them really fight other than that so it is seared in my memory.
Have you historically been attracted to men that would yell and be dominate in arguments? Now, to flip this around, why is it so hard for you to control your anger and communicate the way your H wants to? What happens when you two exchange frustrations in a clam fashion? Do you feel he does not understand or hear what you are saying?
No, I do not think I have typically been attracted to guys who yell and are dominant. They tend to be more like my Dad just leave when they've had enough. My college boyfriend and I broke up tons of times, 80% of the time it was his decision. He always came back though. Hmmm.. so did H, come to think of it. So I don't know what that says about me. I'm a PITA but the guys still tend to come back for more? "Can't live with her, can't live without her." So I know I have some anger/control issues. That's a given. I'm working on it but I also feel like that "fire" in me makes me who I am and I don't want to totally get rid of it. Just wouldn't be me to push the envelope now and then. Of course, H probably says the same thing about himself, just wouldn't be him without some avoidance tactics. I think H hears me when I am calmer but I also feel like I am supressing part of myself, and then it leaks out in other ways. I become resentful even more of the crappy SL if I don't say something about it. Make sense?
Oh LFL, I am very sorry that you are hurting so much and feeling hopeless. I know I have only been around for a short while, but this is the most “down” you have ever come across. Thus, I am not going to ask you any more analysis questions this time. Instead, I am going to try and offer a little inspiration and support.
I can see how being down in the trenches makes things look so bleak right now. Thus, let’s step back for a minute and look at this from a higher level. On the plus side, your H was alpha enough to approach a beautiful and intimidating stranger and strike up a conversation. This alone speaks volumes about his character because it shows that underneath all this current bunk, he is a strong, confident, and assertive guy. From there, you have said that he is a best friend, a caring companion, attentive to your needs, helps around the house, and is a great father. Plus, he is smart, driven, successful and stable. Oh yea, and most importantly, he has great taste in music Based on those facts alone, I know a number of near 40s single women that give anything for a guy even half that. I am sure that you do too.
On the negative side, your H is a stifling depressive conflict avoider lacking self confidence. On top of that, he is not quite the sexual dynamo that you might have hoped. The negatives are clashing with your personality traits and needs resulting in a really painful home and interpersonal life. I am right there with you, those can certainly be deal-breaking issues.
My suggestion to you would be to give this 1000ft perspective of the pros and cons both a little thought. From, there, reevaluate realistic expectations of these issues. Your H is probably not going to be the guy to take the strong stands like you would prefer. Nor is he probably going to be the guy to overwhelm you with sexually charged romance. At best, you will only be able to lessen the impact of those current issues. Though, the really important thing is that you need to make the commitment that you can accept him, flaws and all, and still be happy with your life together. At moment, I don’t hear statements that lead me to believe you are really committed to compromising as much as you might need to.
Next step, you need a little H beat down session. He is being a selfish jerk wallowing in personal pity. He got his feeling hurt and threw his own type of tantrum. Specifically, he purposely ignored your needs as a way of punishing you. That kind of behavior cannot continue, nor should you tolerate it. You have ever right to be angry and hurt. With that said, I highly suggest that you try to avoid “heat of the moment” arguments right now though. Your yelling and his avoidance is not an effective communication technique. Instead, it would probably be best to talk these things over with a neutral third party like a MC. Plus, deferring the argument until you have both cooled down a bit is probably going to yield much better results.
I know you are running short of energy and motivation. Though, remember that today is a new day and new chance to do better. Try to stay positive and keep the hope of improvement alive. Take a look at the whole view, good and bad, then ask yourself, “How do I help to move this forward?” Good luck, stay strong, and know you are not alone.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
That was a great post Brian. Really cheered me up. Want to be my MC? You had some great suggestions. I'll comment on those in a sec, but first a little light-heartedness:
a beautiful and intimidating stranger I'll take the compliments where I can get them. Scored some points. But then you lost them with this comment: near 40s single women I'm 36 dammit!! Near 40 is 39. kidding
Seriously though, that was a very accurate description of my H's positive and negative traits. You seem to have a very keen ability to read people. And considering you are fairly new on this baord, I'm impressed.
My suggestion to you would be to give this 1000ft perspective of the pros and cons both a little thought. From, there, reevaluate realistic expectations of these issues. Your H is probably not going to be the guy to take the strong stands like you would prefer. Nor is he probably going to be the guy to overwhelm you with sexually charged romance. At best, you will only be able to lessen the impact of those current issues. Though, the really important thing is that you need to make the commitment that you can accept him, flaws and all, and still be happy with your life together. At moment, I don’t hear statements that lead me to believe you are really committed to compromising as much as you might need to. Well, again, it comes down to me ultimately having to lower my expectations/standards. I know I have things to work on within myself, I will take responsibility for that piece of it. But when it comes to the SL, H is NOT going to be able to give me what I truly desire, I fully engaged, emotional man who can show his passion for me. That has never been him so I cannot expect him to do an about-face and turn into Mr. Emotional Alpha guy. He can make improvements but it's when we reach a slip up, like this weekend, I feel very discouraged. But that is MY issue not his. I am choosing to get down about that instead of just going with the flow more. I also have a negative tendency when down to project into the future. When I am happy, I can stay in the moment and take things one day at a time, but right now, I keep seeing 5, 10, 20, years down the line and wonder what our M is going to be like. Will I look back with regret? I fear that more than anything I think.
I highly suggest that you try to avoid “heat of the moment” arguments right now though. Your yelling and his avoidance is not an effective communication technique. We were doing so much better a month or two ago with these issues. Hopefully this weekend was just a mis-step. I have to remain hopeful or I'll just start sabotaging any continued progress. So yes, I will avoid the "heat of the moment" arguments and really try to not make my resentments any worse than they already are. I was really making progress on this and don't want to backtrack.
Try to stay positive and keep the hope of improvement alive. Take a look at the whole view, good and bad, then ask yourself, “How do I help to move this forward?” Good luck, stay strong, and know you are not alone. I will and thanks for the pep talk!
I'm 36 dammit!! Near 40 is 39. kidding Doh! I know better than to ever talk about women and age in the same sentence. What was I thinking?
Well, again, it comes down to me ultimately having to lower my expectations/standards. I am not going to say “lower”, but I will agree that your expectations will have to “change”. Your H will never be like you, no will he ever fit the preconceived mold you have in your head. Though, from the bits of your personalities that you have shared, I really do think that you CAN find a middle ground that will work for you both. In fact, I honestly believe that if you can make some key changes, then you two will evolve into something far greater than anything you can even imagine.
However, the really frustrating fact is that your H has most of the work to do right now. As I said in one of my posts, the ball is kind of in his court right now. He cannot even begin to nurture you if he can’t keep a handle on his own depression. From there, he needs to do the same reality check in that he needs to realize that to make you happy, he needs change his own behaviors a great deal. This means that he has to learn to communicate beyond his currently comfortable levels. Also, he has to quit walking away from his wife and children when things get tough. You cannot trust a man who does not fully commit or who pulls that avoidance BS. Avoidance is another form of abandonment. Most importantly, he needs to step up his romantic and physical efforts. He is the LD partner, so it is his responsibility to drive the process of improving your SL. I assume this is what your MC is saying to him as well?
Want to be my MC? LOL…I don’t think that would work out so well. Considering my bias, I would look over at your H and say, “Are you f’ing crazy!!! You have what almost ever man in his right mind fantasizes about and your are risking throwing it away. Wake up and change right now!!!!”. Would that work? If you think there is any merit to the method, will you do the same for my W?
I will and thanks for the pep talk! No problem. Just returning the favor.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
However, the really frustrating fact is that your H has most of the work to do right now. As I said in one of my posts, the ball is kind of in his court right now. He cannot even begin to nurture you if he can’t keep a handle on his own depression. From there, he needs to do the same reality check in that he needs to realize that to make you happy, he needs change his own behaviors a great deal. This means that he has to learn to communicate beyond his currently comfortable levels. Also, he has to quit walking away from his wife and children when things get tough. You cannot trust a man who does not fully commit or who pulls that avoidance BS. Avoidance is another form of abandonment. Most importantly, he needs to step up his romantic and physical efforts. He is the LD partner, so it is his responsibility to drive the process of improving your SL. I assume this is what your MC is saying to him as well?
We are not in MC at this time. He is just in IC. We went for 4 months of MC after he left and it didn't seem to help all that much because he was really not engaged in the process. I really don't think that is something you can force a person to do. They need to be open to the C to make it effective. Anyways, when we got back together we felt like we were managing things ok and he was still in IC so we didn't want to start up the MC again and dredge up old issues. Neither one of us feel like MC is a good idea right now. I think we have a good handle on the issues we need to work on. Now, we just need to DO it. A MC can't do that work for us. Anyways, I am sort of watching to see if H is going to make any efforts after our fight this weekend. Maybe that is wrong to do, but like you said, he needs to start showing some more efforts. He was for a while, but I fear he is going to slip back into "avoidant/comfort" mode. Last night, again no sex. A peck on the lips at bedtime and he rolled over. Didn't say a word, just started reading my book. Maybe this is the wrong tactic but I really want to see how long he'll go to avoid sex if I stop harping on it. Will he step up to the plate on his own? We'll see. Considering my bias, I would look over at your H and say, “Are you f’ing crazy!!! You have what almost ever man in his right mind fantasizes about and your are risking throwing it away. Wake up and change right now!!!!”. Would that work? If you think there is any merit to the method, will you do the same for my W?
Lol. Well, hearing things like that make me feel good and bad at the same time. Part of me gets pissy, wondering why I am putting up with this BS. That he doesn't appreciate my sexuality at all. How can he lie next to me in bed every night and not even want to touch me? And having the OM experience last year makes it even more painful. It's not like I'm stuck in this 20 year old mindset and I think I'm hot stuff. I very sexy, attractive man thought I was very sexy and attractive just last year. Even after two babies, c-sections scars, a few more wrinkles here and there. sigh But maybe I am having my own mlc. Scared to get old and then have No one think I'm attractive. If my H doesn't think I'm sexy now (at least sexy enough to want to F on a regular basis) then it ain't gonna get better when I'm 60. But then again I have to stay focused that a lot of this is about HIM not ME. I can embrace my sexuality even if my H doesn't. But it still sucks. will you do the same for my W? Lol. If only it were that easy. The irony being that perfect strangers can see things about you through a stupid computer keyboard that the people we love right in front of us either choose to ignore or really don't see at all. It's sad. It's frustrating. But I can see why people stay on this board for so long. It's nice to be understood on some level, even if it's all in cyber-space. Thanks again for your kind words. Hope you are having a great day!
just leave when they've had enough. 
Based on those facts alone, I know a number of near 40s single women that give anything for a guy even half that. I am sure that you do too.
You had some great suggestions. I'll comment on those in a sec, but first a little light-heartedness:
