"Anyways, on a lighter note (sort of), wouldn't it be nice if it was socially acceptable to take a lover while M."
There is nothing surprising or light in that at all. That is biology talking. There is a reason that in many cultures throughout history concubines were acceptable. Of course, you are talking about the other way, but it is the same thing. Biology drives us to preserve our genetic code. The easiest way to do that is mate with as many others as possible to ensure that at least one combination will thrive. Monogamy is exceedingly rare in the animal world for a reason. And humans are animals, just with a brain more capable of creating pathways and connections than any other.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Threads without your brand of direct unabashed candor just are not as interesting or enlightening. Thanks for that flattering compliment. is your thought that you long for a more progressive M or is it that you really long to be back in a time when we were young, life was simple, and it was acceptable act as such? Out of curiosity, how were your teens and 20s? Were those thrilling and wild years for you? Alternatively, were you the committed long-term R girl back then?
Well, let's see, teen years, hmmm, never had a date until I was 18 but I clearly remember being "boy crazy" in high school. My friends and I were not in the popular crowd, not total nerds either. More like the freaks in high school I guess. But good kids. Always got good grades, that sort of stuff. Sort of nerdy cool. We thought we were cool anyways. About the boy crazy, I was very shy. Guys just didn't approach me that much. But I had these elaborate fantasies (even back then) about having a sexual and love R with many of them. Summer of 1988, between high school and college, was a real turning point. Came out of my shell. Met lots of new friends in the next town over. Started hanging out at clubs downtown. Just having fun, exploring music, exploring the opposite sex. Those are good memories. So the undergrad years came and it was certainly a time of finding my first "love". Dated him on and off (mainly on) for those four years. Had some other sexual partners when we were "on a break." lol Shortly after undergrad, met H out at a bar. We were inseperable from that point on. Saw each other every day. Moved in together about a year after dating. Married about 2 years after that. I think of those years as pretty good times. The most stress came with the kids I think. In my 20's we traveled all the time, went to grad school, just had so much more freedom to work on ourselves individually. In my 30's, we becamse real "adults." Babies, and all that goes along with that. Minivans, blah blah. We both sort of went into our own worlds. I focused on the kids and he focused on work but we lost each other in the process. Quite common for M's at this stage. Sex was more and more of an issue and we just really hit the wall by 2004. Separated and then reconciled fall 2005. Would I do any of it differently? Yes but I can't. I do not dwell on the past too much. I'm actually looking forward to what the future holds. I thought I knew my future back in 2004 but I was wrong. So I don't take anything for granted anymore. Just try to make myself happy and hope it makes our M happier in return. So, do I want a more progressive M? It depends on what you mean. Progressive for us I guess. No longer enmeshed. Free to do what we feel is right for us as individuals. When it comes to sex, I still have a desire for more. That worries me at times because I wonder what it is I'm really looking for. Is it the sex, the love, the "in love" feeling, some romance, some affirmations? This seems to be a common theme in your writing, the need for affirmation. Assuming a perfect world for a minute, how would you most like affirmations conveyed? What would the mix of techniques look like? The mix of techniques, hmmm. A perfect guy to me would be both Mr. Assertive/Aggressive as well as Mr. Sensitive Good Guy. An Alpha male who can be assertive in the bedroom yet when out of the bedroom, he "gets" me on a very personal, friendship, emotional level. He shares easily. He expresses himself easily and can show his emotions. He respects me and thinks I am an interesting person. He's extremely smart but never cocky about any of it. I'm not sure this guy could even exist in reality. But you did ask in terms of a "perfect world." So I guess the affirmations, ideally, are a mixture of both outward sexual behaviors from him and verbal expression of his feelings about me.
There is nothing surprising or light in that at all. That is biology talking. There is a reason that in many cultures throughout history concubines were acceptable. Of course, you are talking about the other way, but it is the same thing. Biology drives us to preserve our genetic code. The easiest way to do that is mate with as many others as possible to ensure that at least one combination will thrive. Monogamy is exceedingly rare in the animal world for a reason. And humans are animals, just with a brain more capable of creating pathways and connections than any other.
Well, that was a very intellectual, Dr. Chrome response , and while I certainly agree with you, my interest/fantasy in actually doing that is much more emotional for me than due to a biological sexual drive. I have been coming to grips with never having that "in love" feeling again...ever...in my whole life. And I am going back and forth in my head with why this is such an issue for me. I tell myself I do not need to be "in love" yet still the stupid romantic in me really wishes I could just feel it again. And I can tell myself I am "in love" with my H and I do love him very much. But you know what I'm talking about Chrome. Like the EA. It's just a different feeling. An amazing feeling that you only share with a few people in life, you know? Ugh. I don't know why I'm even discussing this since it's not going to be helpful to my M. But sometimes....I just wish I could have my cake and eat it too.
"A perfect guy to me would be both Mr. Assertive/Aggressive as well as Mr. Sensitive Good Guy. An Alpha male who can be assertive in the bedroom yet when out of the bedroom, he "gets" me on a very personal, friendship, emotional level. He shares easily. He expresses himself easily and can show his emotions. He respects me and thinks I am an interesting person. He's extremely smart but never cocky about any of it."
"I'm not sure this guy could even exist in reality."
(cough cough)
LOL. Just kidding around everyone
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
No Sh!t Sherlock Everyone on this board is aware of this "attraction." But I'm just one of your many admirers on this board Chrome. The BEST one, but still one of many.
“More like the freaks in high school I guess. But good kids. Always got good grades, that sort of stuff. Sort of nerdy cool. We thought we were cool anyways”
What, are you trying to say that being on the Speech and Debate team does not make you one of the popular kids? Hehe… yes, I know what you mean well. Were you a New Waver back then or did that come later?
So, to sum up your R history, you went from shy and unnoticed to “wild child” very briefly at the end of high school. Then, college rolls around and you dove right into a serious long-term thing. You mentioned that you had some experiences in between, but those were probably just hard, fast, and short. Then, right out of college you met your H and that was it. Is that about right? If so, did you ever really feel “comfortable, secure, and desirable” for any significant duration while you were single (the stress is on single here)? I hear you saying that you wish you had explored more. Though, I am kind of wondering if the “exploring” you desire might really be that you never really completely flushed out your self-identity. Specifically, you spent a lot of time seeking validation or having external validation. Though, did you ever get a chance to grow to a point where you did not feel you needed it?
“I'm not sure this guy could even exist in reality.”
It is funny to read your description. Though, I can tell you from first hand experience that even though you list those as desirable attributes, the reality is that most women don’t actually go for “that guy”. Instead, most women seem to actually pick the arrogant insensitive dominating types even though they know he is all wrong. I am at a loss to explain this. Do you have any insight why women will list an ideal, but willing choose to go the wrong route in a man any way? Heck, your description is not your H, so why did you?
Last edited by Brian_M; 05/18/0605:39 PM.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
Were you a New Waver back then or did that come later? Oh, that definitely started by 9th grade. Music was a huge part of my life back then. And college. So, to sum up your R history, you went from shy and unnoticed to “wild child” very briefly at the end of high school. Then, college rolls around and you dove right into a serious long-term thing. You mentioned that you had some experiences in between, but those were probably just hard, fast, and short. LOL! Hard, fast, and short, huh? Hopefully not too short, badumbum. But I get your gist. Yes, the college boyfriend was my first really long-term R and had some pretty short R's in between and before. Then, right out of college you met your H and that was it. Is that about right? If so, did you ever really feel “comfortable, secure, and desirable” for any significant duration while you were single (the stress is on single here)? Yes, that is about it. And no, I have never been "single" for any long stretch of time since 18. So you are correct, my "self-identity" was often lacking and/or too wrapped up in the man I was with at the time. I definitely feel like I lost myself even more as the M went on. But that was my fault, not his. It is funny to read your description. Though, I can tell you from first hand experience that even though you list those as desirable attributes, the reality is that most women don’t actually go for “that guy”. Instead, most women seem to actually pick the arrogant insensitive dominating types even though they know he is all wrong. I am at a loss to explain this. Do you have any insight why women will list an ideal, but willing choose to go the wrong route in a man any way? Heck, your description is not your H, so why did you? Oh boy, here we go again with "most women" I don't care what most women do when it comes to me personally. I have never picked guys that were jerks, meaning both arrogant and insensitive. It's often one or the other. My college boyfriend was too arrogant (which was annoying at times) but he was also very emotional and fairly sensitive. I liked that about him...and he was great in bed. My H is not arrogant or assertive at all but he holds some of the qualities I mentioned I wanted in a man, like getting me on a friendship level. That is very important to me and to him. I think it was ultimately the loss of our friendship and not the sex that led to our S. We no longer found each other interesting. Still working on that one as we work on ourselves. As to why women would choose to stay with a jerk, they are either dealing with some self-esteem, self-identity issues themselves (often from FOO) and/or the sex with a domineering guy can be a turn on for some women. I understand it in theory, if I just met someone and he came on very strong like that I would be intrigued. Possibly have the urge to sleep with him. But that would last a very short time. As soon as I figured out he was a jerk, I'd no longer find him that attractive. Well, let me say this, I still might want to use him for a good F, but I would never be able to fall in love with someone like that or have any kind of meaningful R.
“I definitely feel like I lost myself even more as the M went on. But that was my fault, not his.”
That is exactly where I am kind of going with this. Could it be that the disconnect and resulting unhappiness that led to your separation could have been founded to a degree by your desire to “find your identity”? It would really make sense that if you feld “something was missing” that you might have unintentionally vented on your only outlet, your H. In turn, he might have interpreted that as if he was not giving you something you needed. Hence, his feelings and confidence could get squashed under the weight of a perceived inadequacy resulting in an even more shy and timid behavior. I know so little about you that I certainly don’t mean to take too many leaps. Though, I could definitely bridge a connection between your state and your H’s behavior. What do you think LFL?
“Oh boy, here we go again with "most women" Doh..I should have know better than to go there. I guess it is a sensitive topic for me because personality traits like you described have not worked out quite so well for me. Chrome, if you don’t mind sharing, how well did being the “nice guy” work for you prior to meeting your W?
“I still might want to use him for a good F” See, that is exactly my point! I won’t presuppose for all women, but I can at least say that in my experience, the women I have known don’t have sexual fantasies about the “nice guy”. This fact sends men a very conflicting message and makes it really hard to maintain self esteem.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
That is exactly where I am kind of going with this. Could it be that the disconnect and resulting unhappiness that led to your separation could have been founded to a degree by your desire to “find your identity”? It would really make sense that if you feld “something was missing” that you might have unintentionally vented on your only outlet, your H. In turn, he might have interpreted that as if he was not giving you something you needed. Hence, his feelings and confidence could get squashed under the weight of a perceived inadequacy resulting in an even more shy and timid behavior. I know so little about you that I certainly don’t mean to take too many leaps. Though, I could definitely bridge a connection between your state and your H’s behavior. What do you think LFL?
Subconsciously more for me than for him. I think even in his depressed state he was more aware that we were totally disconnected. I was somewhat more in denial, not that we were happy necessarily, but that anything bad would happen to our M. It wasn't until after he left that he verbalized to me how much pain he had been in that we had drifted so far apart, like I said, specifically friendship wise, since the sexual disconnect was always somewhat there. And yes, I totally agree that he probably felt "squashed" as a man with our sexual problems and then to add insult to injury, we no longer had our solid friendship.
See, that is exactly my point! I won’t presuppose for all women, but I can at least say that in my experience, the women I have known don’t have sexual fantasies about the “nice guy”. This fact sends men a very conflicting message and makes it really hard to maintain self esteem.
I strongly disagree that women (at least this woman) does not have sexual fantasies about the "nice guy." But yes, they tend to be more love-based fantasies and not as graphic as the raw sexual fantasies people can have. But men do this too. I'm sure guys can get off on some slutty porno girl fantasy for pure sexual pleasure but yet still have more romantic fantasies about being "in love" with someone they are attracted to, no? It's not gender specific. It's conflicting for women as well. Also why women are often wary of the Alpha male in terms of his level of sincere feelings for the woman. We want that in a man but it also puts us on guard. Simply because the Alpha male with the sensitive, nice guy traits is a rare bird.
I guess it is a sensitive topic for me because personality traits like you described have not worked out quite so well for me. Chrome, if you don’t mind sharing, how well did being the “nice guy” work for you prior to meeting your W?