Joanne, I can see that you've been workiing very hard at this so let's dig in a bit deeper.
"I would very much like him to treat me at least as well as he does other people."
He would smile and be light hearted but sincere. Gentle in his approach and say things that are warm and caring. His tone of voice would tell me that he is more interested in me than what he has been doing all day.
He would say things that he knows are in my mind, or in his mind and want to talk about them because his "job" has finished for the day. Things like what we are going to plan for that evening, or do around the house, or go out, where and when. I have never expected him to NOT talk about his work and his day, I am interested in that too, but it has always taken first place. I used to say to him that he had a full half hour when he came in that I would listen to what had happened in his day and then the rest of the time was our time for other things. He didn't like that, he felt it was controlling and that I wasn't interested. I always feel that I am in competition with his job for his attention and efforts and I always lose out. His work and what he's done take priority over everything. I look for balance. I'm happy that he enjoys his job but there must be a balance between living to work and working to live.
After reading this, I am going to sift out of all of it the parts I think are really clear. The rest is fuzzy. 1- YOu want him to smile when he comes home. 2- He can talk about work for a half hour if he wants, but then you want him to talk about other things such as your plans, what you are going to do that evening or things that need to be done around the house.
When you use terms such as, sincere, light-hearted, and so on, it really doesn't say too much that is helpful. Okay?
Now, you say that he feels that you are controlling and not interested in him when you try to limit the time he talks about work. I agree with you that everyone needs balance in their lives and that life isn't just about working. You are absolutely right about this Joanne. However, I suspect that he feels unimportant to you for other reasons. I don't know what they are just yet, but I wonder why he doesn't feel as if he's number one on your list. Sometimes, when men feel unimportant to their wives, it has something to do with their intimate relationship. Often something is missing. I don't know if this is true for the two of you, but it is certainly the case with lots of people who will be reading this and many who aren't! If this is going to work, you will need to hear from him why he feels unimportant to you, even if you hate what he has to say and disagree vehemently. You said you want to have honesty in your marriage, well, go for it.
Nonetheless, it's important, as you already know, for couples to have time together that is free from work-related issues. So, you're on to something important here, no doubt.
"I would like him to be interested in me, who I am and how I feel about everything and anything."
He would be commenting on how I feel, how I look, and what I'm doing, showing interest verbally in my ideas and asking questions about why, when, where, who and what.
Give some examples of things he will be saying to you when he comments on how you feel or look. In regards to asking you questions, think I understand that you just want him to ask you your thoughts about things such as, "What did you think about that movie,?" "WHy did you respond the way you did to your friend?" Right? Give some examples.
Usually it ends up in an argument because he feels the need to play devil's advocate on how I feel, how I look, what I'm doing, my ideas, my wants and needs.
Again, when he stops playing devil's advocate, what are the kinds of things he will be sayiing to you? Be specific. Are you talking about compliments here?
He would ask questions so that he understood, support me verbally with his understanding and ask me how he could help me achieve what I want and need in my life. He would tell me that my wants and needs are important to him too. Everything and anything are a bit of an overstatement, but I mean it in general terms, not every little bitty detail about everything under the sun.
From this I get that, again, you want him to ask you more questions about your thoughts and tell you that what you want for yourself in your life is important to him too. (I have a feeling that you might not be as clear as you think you are about what YOU want for YOURSELF in your life, but that's a whole other issue. Maybe we'll get to that too. I wonder how you feel about your own life as an individual, completely separate from him. I always tell people that relationships should be icing on the cake, not the cake itself. We have to be happy as individuals if we are going to make a marriage work. But more about that later.)
"I need him to initiate talking that isn't about him or his job or other people, but is about me, him and us."
He would voluntarily make deliberate moves to be alone somewhere quiet so that we could talk even if I have to start the talking. What does this mean? He would say, "Joanne, let's go take a walk alone," or "Let's go out to dinner, just the two of us,?" Is that what you're saying. Be specific.
He would tell me what is going on in his head about our relationship. He would discuss where he is right now, where he wants to go and how we should work at getting there. He would tell me ideas that he may have and verbalise what he wants and needs from me as well as listening to the same from me. Maybe the subject would be hopes and dreams, maybe families and what is going on with them, maybe politics or future plans.
This is fairly clear. However, he might have trouble doing this. This doesn't mean he is being dishonest or doesn't love you enough. Some people are just not good at or comfortable with these kinds of discussions. Ask him questions rather than expect him to take the lead. And then, if he does respond, even if it isn't perfect, you must really compliment him. Let him know how much you appreciate the effort he is making, even if it isn't 100% right! Joanne, I have a feeling that you've been so disappointed in your relationship that much of what happens between you is negative and critical. You both need to change that. Any time he verbalizes something personal (since that is what you seem to yearn for), let him know how happy you are. Even if his personal sharing isn't completely positive, tell him you appreciate that he is willing to share his thoughts. That will go a long way to encouraging him to do it more and work harder at it.
I know you might feel defensive because you've been working hard at your marriage for a long time. But there is a big difference between working hard and working smart. I am trying to show you the difference. Okay?
"And I need him to listen and really absorb what I say about my feelings."
He would look at me, listen without interrupting and tell me his perception of what I am saying. He would ask questions so that he reached a full understanding of what I am saying.
So far, so good. Really good.
He would switch off everything in his head apart from the words I am saying to him.
And you would know this because....(see what I mean here?
He would feel comfortable telling me that he couldn't listen to me right now because a) he's too bothered about other things b) his need to be listened to is greater than mine c) he's annoyed with me about something d) any other reason….. but agree to make time in the very near future to hear what I have to say. He could tell me if what I want to talk about isn't of any interest to him and why. In general terms, I can accept that but not if it has anything to do with our relationship. Perhaps we should schedule time for OR talk to be separate from other talking but I'm not particularly comfortable formalising it like that, it makes me feel like we are sticking OR in a box until 8pm on a Tuesday and the rest of our life is somehow separate and different.
This is very clear and that's great. You are getting better, girl. However, I want you to think about something. I like the idea of scheduling OR talks, if that will be helpful to him. Keep in mind, in the same way that he doesn't like you to schedule time for him to discuss work-related issues, you might not like scheduling OR issues. But I say, "That's tough guys, that's what relationships are about, give and take. You both have to give. That's what love it."
What I'm trying to do with these goals is to say "Hey, please be interested in the things that are important to me because I need to feel that you care about them as much as the things that are important to you. I need you to do that for me. I need you to please look after my feelings in a loving and caring way. I need to feel as if I'm special in your life, that the person I am on the inside and show on the outside is loved because of my being who I am, feeling what I feel and acting how I act. I am happy with who I am, I need to hear and see that you are happy and love me for who I am." I just don't know how to say that in other words, or in action-oriented terms. I know these are needs and not goals, but I'm sorry Michele, I'm kind of stuck here. I know I have to turn these needs around into words and actions but my brain seems to be blocked. I have asked myself, how do I do it, what do I say and do that shows these same things to him but all I can come up with is that I am a naturally empathetic kind of person, I automatically work at understanding how he feels and why. Some women are more empathetic than some men. If I am and he isn't, how do I promote that kind of behaviour in him? He takes all the kindness, caring, consideration etc. etc. from me and he likes what he gets. Yet he cannot be that way back. Don't get me wrong, he's not a bad person, he is kind and caring and considerate in superficial ways but it's the deeper connection that I don't get and am struggling with how to communicate so that I do get it. I hope I am making sense here.
I know men don't relish deep and meaningful OR talk, but it doesn't always have to be that. There are so many other things to talk about that give lots of information about a person and who they are, their views and opinions, the things they aren't interested in just as much as the things they are interested in. I would like us to start from the beginning, like about the second date, and find out who we are married to. Let curiosity and interest put the questions in your head that come out through your mouth. Yes, we did this in the beginning, but after we were married, having children straight away, moving jobs and moving houses, it somehow stopped and was never started again. We were always too busy doing other things. That's what I would like to start again now. Forget the assumptions and taking for granted, the wrong ideas of feelings, and rebuild that connection and love between us. So how do I do that? Should one of my goals be to make time to talk about ourselves?
Joanne, I really do understand that you want more of a connection with your husband and this makes perfect sense to me. Spending time together, talking, having fun is such an important making of keeping your live alive. I'm glad to hear you say that you were able to do this long ago. Now I know that the ability to connect is there.
I'm also glad to hear you say that you would feel that it's acceptable for him to tell you that he's not in the mood to talk or listen sometimes. That's good. I get the feeling from your posts that you are quite directive with him (although not always clear) and that he tells you that he will do what you want him to do, just to get you off his back, and then he doesn't do it and, for that matter, probably resents you. (He might not even be aware of this resentment himself). In addition to your learning to be more action-oriented and realistic about your requests, it would be great if he could stand up to you more strongly. IF I were working with you both, and I were right about this dynamic, I would certainly talk to him about his allowing you to take charge the way you do. Now don't get defensive. First of all, I could be entirely wrong about this. Remember, I've never met you and my only impression about you and your h is through these words, these posts. It's hard to read between the lines sometimes. However, if this sounds true at all, and he were willing to be stronger with you,- tell you what he wants, likes, needs, tell you when he wants you to back off and so on, you need to ask yourself whether you'd be okay with this. Sometimes you'll hear things you might not like hearing. When you tell a person- "Tell me more about yourself, what you think and feel," you are opening up Pandora's box. Often the closed up person became that way because sharing negative feelings was met with hostility or disappointment. You can't have it both ways. Either you want your husband to be open and honest or not. Remember, honesty is a package deal. He might tell you, "I don't really feel like talking about our relationship very often. If you want to do it, fine, I'm willing, but it's not my thing." So be honest with yourself. Are you ready for the man you are asking him to become?
I really like your idea of dating. Why not try to enjoy each other's company, have fun, laugh, joke, kiss, rather that try to fix the problems? (I hope you can see the irony in what I'm saying here.) There is more than one way to heal a marriage. YOu can talk things through or live them through. Both are valid, both are necessary. So, when you ask, "should I set aside more time for talking,?" I say, "No, not necessarily. Set aside more time for fun."
I'll stop here before I tangle myself up any more.
I think you are in the process of untangling yourself, Joanne. I do want to say one more thing. I know you won't agree with this, but the things your husband does for you are not superficial. You might want more, and that is understandable, but don't belittle his way of reaching out to you. Many women would love the small things he does for you.
I have a homework assignment for you if you are willing. First, respond to this post so I know what you're thinking. Then. take a few days and notice things about your marriage and your husband that are worth keeping. In other words, what's happening in your life that you want to continue to happen? Pay attention to those things and post your responses.
