How to Push into the Crucible

[heatherg]

You're criticizing him because he won't say he loves her, but he has never claimed to love her.

I can't see how you demand a commtiment from someone you've never loved. You just don't have that right....no more than she has the right to demand that you love her. I can completely understand reassessing the situation at this point, from her perspective. Perhaps she was willing to live that way for a time (in a loveless marriage), perhaps feeling it was the best thing for the baby and hoping that years together would foster a love. If she's not seeing that, and in fact is only seeing Cobra's demands closing in on her, then I can see why she may be keeping one foot out the door. When you don't love someone, you only have the right to ask but so much of them. Where is the reward in compliance with the boundaries? Getting to stay married to someone who doesn't love you, you don't love and who refuses to give you rights to various property? Sounds just about as tempting as my situation.

[cally]

Yes I have been reading through old posts. I understand not being in love to begin with. But after many years and more children later I don't understand. I know as a woman I wouldn't have had more children if I wasn't in love. Love can build over time and children and sharing lives. But I did go looking for a good example from an old post to use. This is cobra's words....

She said she only had sex to appease me and she had no feelings toward me. I told her that wasn’t true, that she does have feelings and she would like to have a relationship with someone again. She acknowledged this but said it couldn’t be with me, there was just too much water under the bridge. I told her that was not true, that the problems were not that large but her anger is. She admitted that her anger was overwhelming toward me. I told her she needed to work through her anger with her mother and father and quit projecting them onto me.

She clearly states that she is angry with him. He then analyzes those feelings into something else and tells her she is angry with her parents and projecting it on her. She was talking to him about her feelings towards him. It has to be maddening to her to be analyzed so much and told her feelings aren't true that it is do to something else. I would shut down to. It's like why bother. She also says she would like to have a relationship with someone else. Which is why I say maybe she is at a plce where she knows he doesn't love her. He has alinated her from most of his life. Rememember she isn't even allowed to speak to his family. Maybe she wants to find true love. Maybe she wants to find someone who loves her. Maybe she is at a place where she realizes this is damaging to her children. She realizes she can't be honest with her feelings with him. Because if she says she has xyz feelings because of him or the past he always jumps in and analyzes her and turns the blame off himself.

[honeypot]

Cobra,
Perhaps my view of the conversation is not as it actually happened. I don't think that your question was a boundary...boundaries are saying what YOU will tolerate, not trying to force an answer out of the other person. However, it may not have been an attack...it might have just sounded that way in print.

Here's how it appeared to me:
The Mrs brings up her need for an apology, you apologize for your contributions but you're feeling a bit cornered..a bit defensive and pissy that she's trying to pull this so the very next thing you say (after that convo is over) is your need for a marriage commitment. It smacks of "oh yeah, well take this" cause you knew that she would not be able to give it and it fulfilled a little bit of your need for payback, perhaps?

Oh well, it's certainly not worthy of this much discussion. I'm surprised that you can't see any room for improvement within your own behavior--only hers.
I can't count how many times I've thought back on my own situation and thought, Oh I got advice along those lines a while back..sure wish I would have listened to it then.
Other people seem to be able to see our situations more clearly than we do.

Best,
H.

[Cobra]

All,

I don’t remember when the issue of an apology first came up, sine it was a few months ago, but I think it was in response to my saying we need to move forward. The apology was basically her deflection to my request. HP, from what I remember I think you’ve got the sequence of events reversed.

Are there things I could have done differently? Sure, as she could have. But my efforts for such a long time were in trying to do something. Her efforts were on trying to not do anything. Now that is from my perspective of course. She say she was making changes though for the life of me I never could see anything different. It was just talk and deflection. Even the counselor was frustrated with W for her defensiveness and avoidance. The counselor is a woman, who initially was all over my case to change, let go of my anger, stop the fighting, etc. She has commented on how much I have turned around, and W agrees as well.

The problem was that neither the counselor nor I saw any movement in W. That in itself was a major problem because it kept us from growing. What you all are focusing on is the growth I am trying to push for my W. Recall that I mentioned how much I had done to address the list of complaints my wife had. There is little she can complain about now. I have made huge changes in myself.

Some of those changes were not to her liking however. Cutting off the joint checking account was not well received. Putting up a hard boundary on her ravings and calling the cops was not well received. But until the last year, what changes I have made (that she asked for) did little to nothing to create changes in her that I asked for. If she did make a change, it would last about a month, then slowly she would go back to her old ways.

She would ALWAYS have plenty of excuses for why she couldn’t do this or that. When I would confront her on it, she would of course resort to the “fog machine” but eventually it came out that she did not want to change, she was still angry, and she only made token changes to make peace. The problem as I saw it is that she was not committed to the marriage but was only trying to buy time. If there is no genuine buy-in to the program, it is destined for failure and I experienced this pattern more times that I want to recall.

It made me realize the only way for us to move forward as a couple was for us to both commit to the marriage. So I first changed as much as I could, addressing her complaints, helping around the house, spending more time with the kids, ignoring the small stuff and not focusing on minor daily disagreements. To her credit she did some of the same and would try to stay out of some arguments, but she even admits this was not out of some new trust in me but resignation that if we divorced, this is how life would be whether she liked it or not.

So where do you go with this? Just play nice, be the attractive man o’ steel and hope she comes around in a few years? I decided I was not going to play this game forever. I have a life and I cannot hold myself hostage to this situation for much longer. I decided I needed to push. The outcome from not pushing was quite clear to me. There was no uncertainty in my mind where that would lead. But I did think there was a better than 50/50 chance that my pushing would get us where we both wanted to be. I knew that down deep she really wanted a solid marriage, security, intimacy and all that good stuff. I also learned more and more just how scary that was for her.

So now I tell her that I will not stay in this marriage if we stay in limbo. I set a boundary. If she wants to keep the status quo, I will walk at some point (I did not say when). If she makes a verbal commitment, as non-binding as that is, then we move forward and can work on our issues.

There is nothing that requires a crucible test to be comfortable, to be to your or your spouse’s liking. She did not like my closing the joint checking account. But I complained for YEARS about our debt situation. She made no effort to change her spending and even seemed to me to have the mindset that she needed to take what she could while she could since she wasn’t going to stick around forever anyway. If she runs up a huge credit card debt (and we’ve had about $16,000 on the cards), it doesn’t really matter. I will get stuck with most of the debt in the divorce proceedings and she gets a free ride. So I set a boundary. She doesn’t like it but she will live with it. We don’t have the huge fights over money that we once did.

If the day ever comes that she sees her future tied to mine so that managing our money is in her interests as well as mine, I might consider another joint account. But not anytime soon. I have kids on the verge of college and I have no idea how I am going to pay for it.

So what is the problem? Why does everyone think the only way to work through marriage issues is to be nice and civil, present options and wait for the other person to choose? What if they never choose? That is what I see too many people doing on this board. They are scared to push forward because they might tick off their spouse and the spouse might get mad and leave. But not pushing means you will get mad and leave. So what do you do???? I have my strategy. From what I can tell, it is working. My wife does not seem to be angry with me, she seems to understand, she seems to have more security knowing that I want her to stay with me. I have not found another approach that worked or even moved us forward. It seemed that everything else actually made things worse.

I am still waiting, like so many others here, to see a good approach that will work in such a difficult situation. We are not passionately in love with each other but that is not the end of the world. Emotions are VERY fleeting. People can be in love one week and hate each other the next. I am not concerned with the love aspect. As the marriage improves, the love will take care of itself. Everyone is WAAAAY too wrapped up in focusing on love. It is one of the biggest obstacles I see holding back growth. Moving forward and jeopardizing love is very scary. But not moving forward will eventually destroy the love anyway. That is the catch 22, whether you like it or not.

[Cobra]

BTW, GEL and Cally have brought up this analyzing thing. I generally save the analysis for this board and have spoken to the counselor about my ideas. I have mentioned to W that I think her anger toward me is in part a projection from her father. We had a good session not too long ago where W came to realize this and that I was not acting as her father, so she shouldn’t punish me as her father.

For my sitch I think analysis is critical. There is so much danger in almost any direction I turn. The fights over the years have run the gamut, to the extent that I became scared to speak up and found myself walking on eggshells to avoid another fight. That only made me angry and resentful and the fights came anyway.

But as I have gained deeper insight into what drives her, I find I am better able to hold onto myself, and also know where to pick my fights and over what topics. But I think the most important benefit is that I can now see when she is turning on the fog machine and hold her to the core issue that is driving her anger. To prevent her from becoming defensive, I also need to explain how I have similar fears, that I want but am afraid of intimacy and vulnerability. This is where I have learned to play the real man o’ steel, by exposing my vulnerability first, so she feels safe to come out. It works and works very well.

If I had not tried to understand her and analyze her, I don’t think I would be able to play this role. Our issues are not simple. They are very extensive and complex and have contributed to such defensive systems that for YEARS we would argue and never know what we just said. Things would go in circles, we would both feel like we had been heard to some extent, once the fog machine ran out of fuel, but nothing had been changed or fixed. Then the same argument would come up again. This pattern over the years is what convinces couples they are truly not compatible and are not in love with one another. I think that is the farthest thing from the truth.

So for me, I believe the analysis is critical. Your situation may differ….. then again, it may not.

[cally]

Yeah but I think you analyze way to much over everything she does. If she tells you what she feels you tell her it is wrong. That she is feeling this way because of xyz. That can be very irritating. I would imagine she feels it doesn't matter what she says to you.

I think you are wrong. Love is VERY important in a marriage. I think you have a strong ego and won't take into account at all that maybe being with you isn't appealing to her anymore. Maybe she wants more in life. She may be at a place where she wants to find love. You claim she likes to fight. But yet then you say you have learned what fights to pick. So I think you are both just as argumentative.

For many years she was SAHM. Working can change people. You meet new people and make friends. Maybe she has that foot out the door because she herself just doesn't know if she wants to be with you. (someone who doesn't love her)

I as a woman wouldn't find it appealing to be with you. For these reasons:
You don't love me
You have alienated your whole family from me and have spoke negatively about me. That would embarrass and humiliate me.
You don't act like a marriage is a joint situation. What yours is yours. There is no sharing.

But I don't think it matters what people say at all. You feel you are right and entitled to all your anger. If she gets angry then she is mad at her father. Your actions must not be working if she put up a retainer with a lawyer.

I just don't understand why stay together if there is no love? Can't you see past your anger and maybe take a look at your children who are sitting in a counselors office because of the way you two are. You are so into FOO issues. You have never addressed what FOO issues you think your own children will have.

I would never in a million years want my daughter to marry for convenience. I hope all my children experience love. I would never encourage them to stay where there is no love.

[blackfoot]

Cobra.

I dont have a problem with anything you are saying, or trying to do.

In fact months ago I told you how much effort and probable fights you would have to go thru, in order to get thru to your Wife due to your divergent FOO's.
Cally and heather, maybe even GEL (honestly, Im choosing to assume all women for my reality from now on--except MWD, but shes not available -- ) may not be able to grasp love is a choice and not a feeling, but the reality is, most R's in our society are based on romantic love (attraction ). So while I do agree with your efforts, and will say again I like that schnarch is able to communicate to you, I want to reiterate that you should?, need?, want? to also work on filling your W's LB with positive feelings. Your doing really well with requiring and earning her respect in different areas.
Have some fun togther too. Im not talking about housework or placating her with remodels. I mean the two of you go out. See a play or a comedian at the Hobby center. Go to the arts festival. Go to San Antonio City walk for a weekend, or Galveston and take a sailing lesson together. Is there any chance you are afraid of this, becuase it causes you to fall/feel 'in love' with her?

heatherg --I can't see how you demand a commitiment from someone you've never loved

I doubt Cobra demanded Marriage from his W. Even if he did its not probable or likely to have been accepted by the local authorities, unless they were living in the bayou at the time she got pregnant. Marital commitments have been given for aeons without romantic love. They have nothing to do with each other.

this is an orange---> Marital commitment/social contract/concious choice/legal schmegal

this is an apple---> romantic love/attraction/ subconscious urge/ emotional ocean.

see the difference?

I dont see where he is demanding one now. He is saying make the acknowledgement, and Ill work with you. Or say your not, and D me.
But make a decision. Im sure it feels heavy and demanding to her.

I think he'll get more results with a different tact, because currently Cobra, its come down to a power play over vocalizations of an ideal. Neither which are real, tangible, or can be felt. I disagree with you pushing on this particular piece, because its insecurity/fear based on your part. If the insecurity wasnt there, if you werent afraid and trying to self protect, you wouldnt need this so bad. This insecurity is idgiting your W, and she will just rub rub rub rub rub at it untill it breaks you or you get rid of it.

Everyone on this BB... at least this forum, KNOWs that WOA is needed by a man from his W. So many A's start from a woman giving WOA. And yet you know from being here on this forum, that even women that know this refuse or are unable to do it. They cant control themself. They're too 'idgited'. They want a man who is confidant, not one they have to let know. So they test test test. They are a huge part of the R problem when they continue doing this, and would soon find like HP when you tell your H and think your H is great he soon becomes so. But your W isnt here for me to discourse this with.

Cally-- I know as a woman I wouldn't have had more children if I wasn't in love.

Um.
Ok.
This remark is negated by the fact that around 25% of children dont belong to the Mothers H. (the apparent father). Last Friday night, after closing, an aquaintenance said to me, "I want another baby SOOOOOO BAD. I dont even care if the guy wants to be a dad.' She is already a single mother of a six year old. So from that and other experiences and observations,
I have a feeling that a womans drive for children, is entirely independant of her feelings for whatever man may or may not be in her life.

Please, Feel free to correct me if Im wrong, Cally, but with some facts a little more concrete then how you feel about it, or what you would do .

Thank you, though for sharing how Cobra could be alienating his W, with his mine/not yours actions. Im thinking, and hoping its not as bad as his clinical and detached analyzings here on the forum, come off though. Im certain Cobra loves his W and family.

Maybe you can take this opportunity to see that men arent really emotionless bastards, that dont care about womens feelings. Try to see that men dont, emote like women do, nor should we be required to.
Maybe if she feed him and sexed him and told him she wasnt going anywhere, he wouldnt be so angry and withholding. I know, I know, its simple, and boring, and he doesnt deserve it, because he is angry and witholding.

Whee. around and around. So fun-- like a merry go round. Till it goes too fast and everyone is flung off the ride to nurse their bruises.

[OG_Lou]

Re blackfoot Everyone on this BB... at least this forum, KNOWs that WOA is needed by a man from his W. So many A's start from a woman giving WOA. And yet you know from being here on this forum, that even women that know this refuse or are unable to do it. They can't control them self. They're too 'idgited'. They want a man who is confidant, not one they have to let know. So they test test test.

BB doesn't drive much compared to me. So, the other day she asked me if I am in the correct lane to make a turn.

I continued to drive without saying a word. I did not say anything as I took her comments as another one of those female "testing" her man things.

After the turn, I asked BB if she really thought I acted that in-competent or clueless. She said "it" was only a question.

blackfoot, you are right! Test, test, test.

Any female WOA's out there. I think I am ready for an EA. Just kidding to prove BF's hypothesis.

Maybe next time I won't turn even if I am in the correct lane. Would that put a stop to the XX's test, test, test thought process or just prove how in-competent some of us guys really are.

"I want another baby SOOOOOO BAD. I don't even care if the guy wants to be a dad.'
BF, I met a lady like this. She even talked about it with the group I was in at the time.

Maybe you can take this opportunity to see that men arent really emotionless bastards, that don't care about women's feelings.
We/I try to get it right, what ever right is at the time.

Maybe marriage it is something like a sign I saw in a printing shop.
I can do it fast. (timing)
I can do it cheap. (dedication or frequency)
I can do it right. (quality)
Pick two.


Lou

[Cobra]

Cally,

I don’t know why I bother responding to you, except for the fact that I think you have good intentions but are just ignorant of what you say. My W had her foot out the door from day one. It wasn’t three weeks after we married than she made her first threat of D. Then as now, she is free to leave. What she has had a hard time realizing is that she really does not want to leave. She wants to be wanted, but grew up learning to not want to be wanted. So she is caught in her own internal tug of war and she makes me pay for it.

There is nothing holding her to this marriage. She can leave anytime she wants. I did not alienate her from my family, she did so herself. She fishes for a fight, to the point that someone in my family finally reacts, then she says she is the victim. It is funny how she, the victim, has been preyed upon by every single person in my family, and her family too. Maybe the common denominator – her - is really the problem? So I told my family to stay away not just for her sake but for theirs as well. Otherwise fights can so damage feelings that if W and I ever worked things out, my family and her would never be able to come together again. Right now I do not sense hard feelings on the part of my family or her. I want to keep it that way for the time we can truly come back together. That time is not here yet, but it is closer. Can you see this through your blinders?

If you would feel humiliation and embarrassment, then you’ve got issues to work on. She does not feel like that at all. She is quite convinced the problem is not her, but everyone else. Slowly I hope to address this, but not now.

She truly is angry because of her past. She has been this way almost her whole life. She used to be even more physical and threatening when she was young. She put up the retainer in response to my retainer. I had contacted my lawyer first, and threatened D. Then we had the fight where she was arrested. At that point I knew it was over, that her anger would explode and reconciliation was hopeless. So I filed for D and requested a restraining order. To my surprise, after all that she actually wanted to save the marriage, but more for the kids (or so she says). So I dropped charges, unsuited the divorce and let the restraining order expire. She has not contacted her lawyer yet.

I know the kids are affected by all this. That is the biggest decision to weigh – at what point is the fighting so damaging that it is better to split versus how much healing can occur if the marriage can be saved. I think we were close to that inflection point, but with things going better lately, there has been some significant improvement in the kid’s attitudes and emotions. There is still a lot of work to be done, but having experience the fighting and knowing that life can still go on and get better, I am seeing a new resilience in them that was not there before. That is the sliver lining. The downside is that we still need to work more on their issues, their anger, etc. But I see advancement there too.

So just what other FOO issues do you think exist for my kids? The fighting is the source of it all.

And as Blackfoot mentions, you idea of love is completely naïve.


Blackfoot,

I agree that W and I need to spend time together, go do things, find a common interest or hobby outside the kids. I have realized this for a long time and even years ago tried to suggest different things. She was open to the idea, but never followed through. The kids consume her too much. With all the fighting over the past few years, that idea was out the window. I have been thinking about what we could do.

Regarding the “demand” that W commits to the marriage, I do not get the feeling that she feels undue pressure from me over this. I think it clicked in her that she is holding herself back as well as the marriage. That is why she did not put up much of an argument when I put forth my explanation of what was going on, and that it really was not me that was responsible for her feeling pressured, but her own indecision.

I agree that I would feel more comfortable and secure if W committed to the marriage, but I am also getting very tired of staying stuck. I think being in limbo is much more damaging than almost anything else. If we are fighting and arguing but we can see progress, there is hope and a willingness to confront the issues and stick it out. Being stuck only means endless fighting and no progress. That is demoralizing. That is what I really want to stop. I need to get out of this pit.

You say she may be feeling pressure from my demand to commit, but I actually feel the opposite could be happening with W. I do think she feels pressure to commit to working on the marriage, but I am not sure she feels this pressure from me. I presented it and put her up to the matter, but I think she does see it as her issue and that the pressure she feels is really from herself. I am pretty confident that if this were not the case I would be hearing about it and she would have a totally different attitude and higher level of anger.

I have been seeing her trying to grow in the same way I have chosen, by trying to learn about others. Her sister and her friend both have marriage problems too. They both talk to W about this. W has for some time lectured her sister about demanding too much from her H, because of the long hours he works and because he has never been and never will be a “fixer upper” type person. Her sister is trying to transform him into something he is not and my W sees this. She is telling her sister that she should appreciate the long hours he works and that he wants to relax when he gets home. It is a little surprising to hear her say this so maybe she is heeding some of her own advice. That would be nice.

Her friend has picked up “His Needs Her Needs” and has had her H read through it. She is discussing this with my W and I think this will be very helpful learning experience for W as her friend works through their issues. So W is trying to grow, in her way and at her pace. She has also spoken to me briefly about both her sister and her friend and I will try to gently encourage more of this.


On another subject, and really just journaling here…

Our counselor mentioned to me once concerns about her obsessive-compulsive behavior. I am beginning to focus more on this too. I see it as a major problem for her and how it affects the balance in all our lives. She obsesses over something to the exclusion of everything else and to the point of being completely overwhelmed by it. Then she gets frustrated and angry because other things have fallen through the cracks. I have my suspicions about what drives her to do this, but my detachment from the whole affair may be the best approach for now. In other words, just let the natural consequences occur and don’t try to rescue her.

Yesterday when I came home the house was a wreck (she is off from school for the summer). She has dived headlong into preparing materials for the fall session, wanting to be fully prepared with all her lesson plans and thus reduce stress when school starts. I think that is a good idea and I support her and have offered to help and catalogue her stuff. But there is no balance. She lives on the computer, lets the house go, in fact has papers, materials, boxes all over the bedroom, the living room, the family room. The kids were in the house all day yesterday and did as kids will do, they made their own mess. They didn’t put up the dishes, put away the clothes, etc. W did not think about it either since her attention was elsewhere.

After we got back from TKD and ate dinner, she did have the kids fold clothes while watching TV and while I cleaned up the kitchen. She said she was frustrated but mostly with herself. I knew why so I just stayed out of it. She then started putting her things in boxes and semi-cleaning up her mess. The maid comes today and will have no clue as to what to do with W’s things. It seems the day before the maid comes is the day things get picked up. I complain that we spend money for the maid to set her stuff in neat little piles so she can just scatter them around again the next day. The maid does dust, vacuum and mop, but the house still looks messy.

I would like for W to understand how much stress she puts on herself and how she can drive herself crazy. If she could see this, I think she might realize how much she impacts the whole family when she gets overwhelmed and frustrated. Maybe if the marriage gets on a better track, she will feel more secure and less driven with her job…..but that’s gonna be another tough nut to crack. One step at a time.

[honeypot]

Cobra,
Here's a question for ya.

Why do you think you chose your wife?

Oh sure, I know all about the fact that you didn't 'choose' her to marry, she got pg and all that, but *something* in her attracted her to you, right?

I would concentrate on what FOO/fused things are or were within you that caused you to pick such an obviously broken creature and try to 'fix' her. We all tend to choose someone who is at the same level of differentiation than we are, and you guys are surely no different.

How have you addressed the areas within yourself that led you to pick her in the first place?

(I keep trying to lead the convo back to you and away from her, see.......)

P.S. About the boxes, my word that'd drive me absolutely batshit and I'm not known for my spicandspanness. Can you designate one room of the house for school stuff and she'd better keep the rest of it clutter free?