yes. and you are pulling some of your own power plays. more on that in a second
It really is, but we are way down the road to where there are few alternatives left but divorce.
are you preparing for a negative outcome? Is that where you see you and your W headed? because if it is then you will most likely end up there.
What would the big deal be if you put her name on the van title? Its a gesture of faith, a token of goodwill on your part. In the long run or in a D, its not going to mean a thing.
back to the power play.
It is time for her to make a choice
What choice? the choice to commit to the M? Cobra, I and every other guy here understand what you are saying and wanting, but
Its Irrelevant. (dont have time for a long diatribe, and monolougue about it right now.)
That is your issue. (and mine and pretty much every mans. )
Drop it. Let go of this need to pin her down and have her give up all her power (which is what it feels like to her) by satisfying this need in you.
stop mentioning it. Try it for a little while. assume that she is committed amd wants to be there, instead of afraid that she isnt.
What do you do to make her feel good, and smile? Do you make her laugh, everyday? Can you be goofy with her?
Hey Cobra, I was thinking about the down payment that she wants a stake in, that was given to you by your parents. Why not have your attorney draft a legal document granting both of you some sort of Joint Tenancy with Right of Survivorship (that way, she gets it if you die, and you both have an ownership interest in it), but include a clause in there, like, "but, in the event that the marriage is legally terminated within 10 (or however many years you want) years, Wife's ownership interest will cease" or something to that effect. I am not a property-law specialist, but I bet some overpaid lawyer in your locale has some crafty way of putting it. So, basically, you're giving your wife the property interest she wants, except for the cash-in if she dumps you. You could even make a "leap of faith" by indicating that her ownership interest will only cease if SHE is the petitioner in the divorce...if YOU are the petitioner, she still cashes in. What a way to show her that you're committed.
What kind of husband tries to strip a wife of any power at all. That seems very weird. How much farther are you willing to go. You have stripped her of being entitled to any of your money by taking her name off accounts. You refuse to let her have any rights to your property. You mentioned something about not letting her even be on the title to your vehicle.
Then you even made that comment about it's not your fault her family was not well off and din't leave her anything. Cobra that little stement you made was so full of hatred and was just down right nasty and mean. Then you say she hasn't wanted to be intimate with you and you are not letting that happen again. Why would she want to be intimate with you? If you spew that kind of hatred at her why would she even as much as find herself even wanting to kiss you let alone ML. I can't even imagine how I would feel if my husband put me and my family down like that. And said well to bad my family was well off and could give me something. Your family is poor and can't do anything for you. YOU CLEARLY send the message that you are not commited to this marriage by saying I am not going to give you one more assett to take away from me. Why in heck would she trust you? Why in the heck would she think you are commited? No wonder she doesn't trust you. You are so full of power plays right now. And have convinced yourself that what you are doing is right and is going to change your marriage around. You play as many games as she does.
Then you say she don't have the confidence to leave you and has abandonement issues. Then why are you so ticked off about the retainer fee? And if she was lacking such confidence and has abandonement issues would she have even of put that retainer fee down? Because maybe she has had enough.
What do you mean by well yeah she does have a police record but her job knows her situation? Did you call her place of employment to? You made a comment about her calling the police on you. So what was it when you did it just a knife in the back kind of payback. I just can't comprehend calling the police just because of an argument that I started to begin with.
Blackfoot made a good point..
What do you do to show her you love her? Because on here I don't think I have ever seen you give her credit for anything or say any nice word about her at all. Don't you think she has sense and feel your hatred and powerplays? I mean really think about it. Then think about if you would want to be intimate with a person like that.
Cobra, I agree with what the others are saying as well, so I won't rehash that. I just wanted to mention one thing that I haven't see anyone address yet. Do you tell her all of these nuggets of wisdom you collect on her about her fears and such? I'm curious because that would irritate the crap out of me. I can just hear your W trying to tell you something and you 'setting her straight' on how she 'really' feels or what her 'underlying' issues are. Periodically I can see where there is a place for that, basically calling your partner out on a BS statement. But I picture you as consistently doing that, which gives your W the impression that you think you have all the answers, you are self righteous, and to top it all off, you could be WAY off base which your analysis. Think of the implications of being way off base and yet so sure of yourself. You lose your credibility with her, she starts to think nothing she does matters anyway because you've got it set in your mind already the way things 'are'. Letting her tell you her issues and her feelings is her job. You can ask pointed questions that will get to the heart of the matter and can *help* her narrow down her own issues and disappointments. Maybe she doesn't know exactly how she feels about everything and why, but she doesn't need you filling in the blanks for her. Like I said, it's her job to figure that stuff out and to have someone else try to do it for you is insulting and it always falls short anyway. So maybe help her from a position of an interested H who wants to figure her out, not from the position of a condescending H who already knows it all if she would just listen to you. You have to support her and make her feel like the answers are within *her*, because they are.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I've taken some time to reply to you because once again...something you have written bothered me.
Quote: Maybe think I am doing a good job in conveying the extreme control and imbalance of power she has had in this relationship during the past, and how much I have turned things around
So if in the past she had the extreme control and imbalance of power...and you have turned things around well....doesn't that mean that you now have the imbalance of power? That's not right either Cobra.
There are SO very many statements in your posts Cobra that make it sound like things have swayed too far to the other side now. Naturally we only have the benefit of knowing what you post on here....but even you have doggedly stayed after someone on here when YOU have seen behaviors or statements in a participants post that wasn't benefitting their M.
Yes you and your W have made progress with different methods you have used, won't argue that. BUT there comes a time when you need to change your method. Honestly Cobra lately in your posts you aren't coming across as a very loving person towards your W, as we've said to CeMar oh-so-many times on here.....if your resentment etc towards her comes out so venemously on here, it's going to come out at home too. I truly would love to hear you say something nice & loving about her.
You are striking me as a stubborn mule right now (merely an analogy, not intended as an insult). You say you are enforcing boundaries, but you appear to be behaving in a simply stubborn manner. Cobra....you can still enforce boundaries and redefine how you enforce them. Enforcing them doesn't mean you dig in your heels on an issue and can't budge on something (Hairdoggie IMPO had a great solution for you as far as the property etc goes....I had a similar legal solution in mind). You are the one who sets the boundary, you are the one who decides in what manner it is to be enforced....and that manner CAN change.
You do also sound so very cold towards your W in how you speak of her. You sound unsymphathetic to her past which is a HUGE contributing factor to who she is today. If I were unsympathetic to my H's past...I can only imagine where I'd be right now. I've found that my best successes with my H come from being sympathetic & empathetic to his issues, trying to mentally put myself in his shoes to understand his motivations....and using them to help me design how I will reinforce my boundaries.
Cobra...to address something another poster brought up as well, do you try to diagnose your W when you talk with her? I've noticed you do tend to do that on here fairly quickly with other posters, so it's not a stretch for me to think that you might try to tell your W why she does xyz. As someone else said (Heather I think)....that'd just go right through me if someone did that to me. That would make me feel like you aren't listening to me and that...you think you have all the answers to everything, that everything would be fine as long as it's done YOUR way (that's just how I would fee if someone used that approach towards me...my H would react the SAME way). Perhaps you don't do this with your W, perhaps you have a different approach.....BUT it is how you do come across on here. Think about it, do you behave that way with her? If so, that behavior pushes someone away.
Cobra, I really do hope you are listening to what people are telling you....even though I can tell, it's not something you agree with. Often if we don't agree with something it's because we are resistent to it.....just think about what we're telling you. Take a good look at your behavior. With your current behavior, right now....would you want to be close to someone who behaved as you are?
cobra, I don't have time for a long reply... (installing my new hard drive... gonna have a funeral for the old one later today out in the country-- but this new one is WICKED fast!)...
Maybe I'm nuts, but I think you're doing the right stuff. I think everyone is misunderstanding you mightily. I totally understand the property thing (and think hairdog's suggestion is a good one). I'm not sure the others have the total picture of how long you and your W have been struggling, how far y'all have come, and most importantly, how little you started with emotionally.
When I read your posts, I mostly nod in agreement. No red flags or alarm bells go off. Yes there are battle lines drawn somewhat, but I think in your sitch, they're warranted.
Not sure why everyone is down on your case. You're not in a "normal" (excuse the expression) marriage with a strong Assumption of Good Will either in place, or at least in memory. You're crawling back from the edge of a M that, if it weren't for kids, would have and probably should have ended. I think self-protection, and especially financal self-protection, are very much in order.
Anyway, just wanted to check in. Back to installing, reinstalling, downloading, etc.
Maybe I'm nuts, but I think you're doing the right stuff.
Now how can that be, you being nuts, especially if you agree with me?
Seriously, we had a good weekend. I’ve been putting tumbled marble tile over the kitchen backsplash, completely a minor kitchen makeover a couple of years in the process. I’ve not wanted to put money into the house in the event we divorced. So now the kitchen is really looking nice, and W is quite happy, not just for herself, but for the kids too. (Our middle daughter has expressed some embarrassment over the having her friends see the kitchen.)
I can tell W has a different attitude too, the same one when things are going well between us. She still does not have a clue about how to be intimate with me, so instead she goes on about her schoolwork and preparing materials for the fall semester. I have offered to help organize, catalogue and generally systematize her stuff. I also got my company to give her 5 old PC they would have simply discarded. She can use them for running kid’s learning programs (she works with mentally retarded kids.)
I wasn’t sure how she would feel about sex so I asked if we could on Saturday and she was willing and completely non-defensive. Not even an attitude about it. We also had sex last night (this one was a surprise). So the point is that everyone has completely misread my sitch. And here is why.
My W and I are not in a situation that is just a drought of love. Our problems are deeper and more fundamental. For my W, I firmly believe she sees our major battles not as a matter of disagreement that needs a creative solution, but as a matter of pure survival. She quickly descends into a panic, anxious state where I think she feels engulfed, overwhelmed and possibly some degree of hopelessness. But she is a fighter by nature, and is used to resorting to physical fighting if needed. As a kid growing up in an minority dominated inner city school, that was the only way to survive.
This is especially true for her brothers, since having your place in the male pecking order is so important. Think in terms of a gang-like environment. Boys really need to be tough to survive. Her second brother was very much like this, having been to the federal penitentiary several times for cocaine possession. Although W says she fought a lot with this brother, I see so much of him in her. She has a certain admiration for his wild, crazy, reckless strength. He knew (and W learned I think) that the only way to fight was full force, no holds barred. Holding back would only get you killed. Since W did not have a good role model father, I think she emulated her brother A LOT.
So if you put yourself in that mindset, you can see how every major challenge is not about maintaining attractiveness, but about fighting for survival. I think she has little understanding of the kind of alpha male attractiveness we speak of here. This means much of the methods we propose here will not work. They haven’t for the 15 years I’ve been married to her. What she does understand is a more basic power hierarchy. She does want relations between us to be civil, but when the fighting starts, she simply will not recognize my needs and wants. What she has said so many times is “Make me.” See the difference?
When she goes into “combat mode” she is in the red zone and it is there that I think she really does become temporarily insane. She is capable of almost anything and while I think she knows what she is doing may be wrong or out of bounds, there is little she can do to stop herself. Now I must say she is getting much better at this than she was before. The kids are older so she does not feel as threatened. I think age is mellowing her a little (well, maybe not that much).
So what does she understand? Power, pure and simple. That is the ONLY thing that has given results. Remember that I have commented a time or two that power, legitimacy and authority are the three pillars on which society exists. Authority is granted by the people to the government because they see that government as legitimate and entitled to enforce its rules. But underneath all of that is power. Most of use respect authority because we believe in the legitimacy of the accepted conventions of marriage. We maintain some standard of respect for our spouse and others. There are some actions that are beyond our value systems to where we will not go. We hold ourselves accountable to this concept of authority because we believe it legitimate.
But if you do not recognize “the system” and actually thing it is corrupt, i.e., meant to exploit women for the good of men, then the only thing that will keep you in check is power. This more closely describes my world and what I have struggled with. I walk a rather thin line. I need to bring into our relationship a respect for the legitimacy of marriage and following “the rules” (whatever that may be). The consequences of my W not doing so is not shame or disapproval from me. She does not recognize that she has such a need from me. So the consequences must stem from the most basic level – power.
Others on this board are not wrestling with this level in their relationship (well, maybe a few of us are). But NONE that have replied to my post are on this level (maybe Heather’s H to some degree). That is why I think my actions seem so offensive to so many.
As our relationship changes, then so too must my actions. I recognize this and try to reward new behavior with new levels of reward. I see using the carrot and the stick approach as essential. The carrot alone is not sufficient. Years ago my W was pretty convinced she did not want or need a marriage and nay carrots toward that end were nothing more than a path toward entrapment. So I must push her. Having kids is also a very powerful pull for her since they are growing up to respect the authority and legitimacy of marriage and are putting a more powerful influence on W that I ever could.
One other thought… W is not one to hold her tongue if she thinks I or anyone else is forcing her into something. In our counseling session, she stopped dead in her tracks when I confronted her with being scared of facing the decision to commit or leave the marriage. The counselor also saw my point and backed me up, saying the indecision was causing so much of the fighting. Having her commit is my issue, but her not committing is hers. Because of her background as I have explained, I am confident that unless she is forced to take a stand, she will never choose, but will instead step in and out of the divorce escape hatch as her comfort requires. That I cannot tolerate this much longer is my issue.
So at the moment, she has not answered my question of whether she will commit to the marriage and I have not asked. But I think she has already committed to the answer. She is just not quite ready to come forward and offer it. She is letting her actions speak. I am reading this but I will also ask to hear the answer. This is as important for her as it is for me. It represents a major step for her to hear herself say it. I have not doubts now that she will say yes. I have no doubt that we are on a good path right now, and one that is leading in the right direction.
Cobra, I have no problem with you showing your power to your wife. That doesn't bother me in the least. In fact, you seem to be repeatedly misunderstanding what it is that I, and others, found disturbing about your counseling session.
You were absolutely correct in not taking full responsibility for your wife's actions and she's 100% delusional for even asking for it. However. The fact that you did not hold on to yourself immediately afterwards and instead decided to engage her on your own semi-ridiculous power play says to me that you are not as differentiated as you'd like to be. Note that I am not saying that in a 'neener neener' way--I am well aware that I'm not as differentiated as I'd like to be either...it's a journey, I suppose.
I can't for the life of me figure out why you are pushing your wife so hard for a marriage commitment. Here you've got two people who only sorta kinda love each other, are just now learning to behave in a most basic and civil manner towards each other, have little communication or problem solving skills and you want a firm commitment?? I don't think you are going to get it and what would it mean, anyway? You currently don't have the marital infrastructure to support a permanent no-matter-what commitment, so why are you pushing for that?
You seem to want a guarantee that you are not being played for a fool..that she's not going to financially wipe you out right when you think things are turning around. Although I don't blame you for wanting that, the very fact that you are acting this way is going to push her away. There is *nothing* attractive about a person saying, Commit to me or else. If I were you, I would absolutely STOP asking that question and keep doing what you are doing in your last post--commit to her and lead by example. If you cannot proceed with your own marriage commitment without knowing where she stands, then think "man o steel" and simply tell her (in a way that shows your own vulnerability without looking wimpy) that you are committed and you need that same commitment from her. And leave it at that. Do not press for an answer right away--she will give it to you.
Oh and guess what. We are remodeling our kitchen also. What a MESS!!!!!!!!
I hold no illusions that asking for a marriage commitment will hold any more water than a strainer. There is nothing binding about it. But I think it will require a significant shift in her mental attitude that is needed just for her to utter those words. She must feel that she is taking a leap of faith, jumping into the abyss, even though we both know there is absolutely nothing to hold her to it. This is a huge bump in the road for us, and once we get over that bump, I see much smoother travels. I see this as truly a matter of having nothing to fear but fear itself. This is really her crucible.
I disagree that the “man o’ steel’ model will work. There is just not enough attractiveness in that model for her to climb over the bump. It is just too scary and her fears easily overpower any attractiveness that might arise from her hard wiring. In hindsight, there is nothing I can see in our history that would lead me to believe that model has any incentive for her at all. But used with other incentives and disincentives, it can play a role. The inertia against moving forward is huge.
So what you are trying to say is that you are trying to strip your wife of all power? That just seems absurd. So is that the reason for taking her name off bank accounts? And taking her name off the vehicle title? Also not letting her name be on the property? I just don't buy that. I think you are mentally preparing for divorce. You proved that mentality once again when you stated you let your kitchen be an embarassment because in other words you'd be danged then to put any money into the house if she was going to divorce you. I think her having that retainer fee has really scared you. The only way you know how to fight back is to show your butt.
I also find it interesting that you haven't mentioned what you love about your wife? Or what good qualities does your wife have? You haven't even stated I don't believe ever that you love your wife.
She may not be about power. She may just not want to be intimate with you or get close to you. Your actions have been harsh and probably really pushed her away.
Just for the record because this seems like the harshest thing you have done to her but could you clarify why you put her in jail that night? How long did she have to stay in jail?
)
