I did not see your longer post above. Yeah, what you say is just what she says. But it is all rationalization as she does. Don’t get the impression that my wife is an innocent victim, controlled by me. The fact is that since going to counseling over the past 3 years or so, I have stopped walking on eggshells, stopped giving up my power and stopped backing down to her ultimatums. She still does all she can to get the upper hand if I let her. So I am learning to hold onto my boundaries. If that is control, then good for me because the “balance” in the relationship is quite fair right now. She does not think so because she is used to having most of the control. Sharing power is very scary to her.
We’ve been over the TKD issue before. There is a lot more to TKD than just kicking. TKD is very much an ethical/moral type issue to me. I see so much value for the kids already. There is so much more for them to still gain. To me, there is little difference in this than making the kids go to church.
As for the “petty examples” you cite, I agree, except that you’ve got the roles reversed. She is the one who likes to argue over little issues like matching colors, not me. Yep, she is sick and tired of arguing and having to share some of her power. She doesn’t like me challenging her for pulling the kids out of school without my knowledge. She doesn’t like me questioning why she has the kids on antidepressants without my prior knowledge or approval. So she shuts down when I, the father, wants to know what is going on and have some say so over my kids. Sorry Cally, you’ve got my sitch all wrong.
Should she be angry because she went to jail? Sure. But she is 50% responsible, just as I was responsible when she called the cops on me. As for a record that might affect her employment, it doesn’t seem to matter since I dropped charges and the school is well aware of her situation.
You seem to focus on the control issues going on here, and there are plenty of them. As long as we try to find a way to match one control against the other, the marriage is doomed. That is the problem we’ve had for so long. The underlying issue is the fear of insecurity, abandonment, loss, etc. Remove those fears and the need to control goes away.
And I do let her decide a lot of what goes on with the kids. But in other marriages, I know the W does not operate in a vacuum. Other wives will take the father’s wishes into consideration of how to handle the kids. My wife never did this. She did what she wanted, when she wanted and how she wanted. So I have had to exert MAJOR control to bring this into balance. As the kids get older, this becomes less and less an issue. They are beginning to decide things for themselves and she is learning to listen to them. The family counseling is helping with this, since even the counselor sees that my W does not listen to the kids.
The problem at this moment is not restoring a balance of power because I think the balance is pretty fair. The problem is for her to get used to this balance and relieve her anxiety. She grabbed that control early on in our marriage for a very good reason. I have learned to focus on that reason and try to make changes there.
Cobra, the first thing that came to my mind after reading your update was, Does he want to be right or does he want to be happy? The whole apologizing for the jail incident sort of irked me. And I think that's because I was thinking about my own situation when H left. Both traumatic events in our M's. If my H has never even attempted to apologize after all that time (which is what your W stated in C), I would be very reluctant to commit to the M too. Don't you see that??
I hear both of you and I know what you re saying. The issue is not to be right, the issue is hold to my boundaries and not allow her to project her responsibility onto me. She has done this our whole marriage through her mastery of deflection. The is a lot to what happened that she is responsible for. I will not own that part. I did apologize for my actions and what I did to start and escalate the fight. That is al I will apologize for. If she is uncomfortable accepting her responsibility, that is her problem to deal with. That is her crucible, not mine. This is the lesson of differentiation I have learned. It would be so much easier for me accept responsibility for everything, let her feel justified, give her the moral high ground, and take back her lost power. That is a stage of our previous marriage I will not go back to. I think you both should understand this all too well.
I've stated to Heather that she should work on "softening" and I think you could benefit from that too. I don't mean turn into a pansy, I just mean lighten up a touch. Beceome a Litle more sensitive to your W's perceptions of the M. They DO count. As much as you feel they are wrong.
I agree and I have acknowledged all her points. But that does not mean I agree with them. It is not that I am insensitive to her perceptions. I accept them. But I have my perceptions that count just as much and she needs to acknowledge that too. This is where we are stumbling. It is because she has still not learned to accept herself without need for confirmation from me. In other words, she is still enmeshed, though she claims not to be.
This is the lesson of differentiation I have learned. It would be so much easier for me accept responsibility for everything, let her feel justified, give her the moral high ground, and take back her lost power. That is a stage of our previous marriage I will not go back to. I think you both should understand this all too well. Dont you think there is a level of unhealthy, extreme differentiation? Maybe differentiation is not the correct word here. But I still get the sense you are being too extreme in your views of the M. The issue is not to be right, the issue is hold to my boundaries and not allow her to project her responsibility onto me. She has done this our whole marriage through her mastery of deflection. The is a lot to what happened that she is responsible for. I will not own that part. I did apologize for my actions and what I did to start and escalate the fight. That is al I will apologize for. If she is uncomfortable accepting her responsibility, that is her problem to deal with. That is her crucible, not mine. You can hold on strongly to your boundaries and still have appropriate social/relational skills. You can give a full apology and still have her own her own issues. It doesn't mean there is no responsibility on her. Why so extreme again Cobra? Don't you think I know damm well I have my own responsibilities for the state of my M, even though H has apologized profusely for leaving etc. One does not negate the other. It is not that I am insensitive to her perceptions. Well I'll be blunt here and say I think you are. Seems to me you have plenty of work to do on yourself without worrying so much about HER issues (enmeshment, deflection, etc). Come to think of it, one could say you are deflecting your own issues (control, insensitivity, etc) in order to "fix" your W.
Quote: I accept them. But I have my perceptions that count just as much and she needs to acknowledge that too.
SHE needs to acknowledge that or.....you need for her to acknowledge that? Sounds nit-picky I'm sure....but it makes a difference, and it is two different things.
It sounds much different if you say to someone "you need to acknowledge my perceptions are just as valid as yours"...or instead stay "I need for you to acknowledge my perceptions are just as valid as yours."
Obviously one statement sounds like you are telling someone that they ought to be doing something they aren't....the other is telling them something you need of them (much more effective). I don't know which approach you truly take...just going off of how you phrased it in your post.
Cobra, Have you ever noticed that what one person is complaining about, with respect to their spouse, is reflected so clearly in their own actions?
I see that in your situation.
You complain about your wife's deflection but you are a master deflector yourself. As soon as your wife requested an apology, you jumped on her about needing a commitment to the marriage. What in the world does an apology have to do with that? If you were truly differentiated from her, you would have looked at her and said "I am sorry". The end. There is no need to qualify what, exactly, you are sorry for and what percentage you contributed to the mess and how many hateful comments she vollied your way versus what you said to her. You simply apologize. If you did something wrong, you say sorry and move on. What is the big deal here?
Quote: As long as we try to find a way to match one control against the other, the marriage is doomed.
So stop.
When she tries to make it a power play, disengage from it. She brings up the past resentments because she knows that you will engage with her. Simply stop doing this. Look her in the eye and say "I'm sorry that I didn't support you the way you needed me to. I was doing the best I could." If that is not good enough for her, shrug your shoulders and walk away. What else can you do? Next time she brings it up, say the exact same thing, word for word. She will eventually get the message that this is all she's gonna get.
Finally, when your wife makes a request of you why do you try to "analyze" it away? Oh, it's a foo issue or deflection or this that and the other. You simultaneously expect her to take YOUR issues seriously, though.
I suppose what I'm saying is that you have made tons of progress the last few months but what appears to be holding you back is: you. You are so hyperfocused on her and her issues that you remain hopelessly fused and tangled up in the old dynamic. It's just a more civil version of the old dynamic. Holding on to yourself when she starts in with her old resentments would help your head stay clear. Meeting her in the middle..i.e., coughing up the apology in no way dilutes your progress. To convince yourself otherwise will keep you mired in the standoff and seriously enmeshed.
When your wife comes at you, stop deflecting and defending and really hear her--that way she won't have to get so ugly to get through to you. On the other hand, there's no need to suddenly fall prostrate at her feet with tears rollin down your face. A simple apology will suffice.
She is the third child. The oldest boy died in a car accident as a teenager. The second boy, the rebel and trouble maker, recently died of cancer, after a life of drug addiction and time in prison. She is the oldest girl and was the smart, responsible one. She has a two younger sisters and the very youngest is a boy, who is also alcoholic. Both sisters are married, have kids and are doing ok. Her father remarried and has several more kids, though obviously much younger.
In my opinion, my wife is the classic “lost” middle child, overshadowed by older boys (so she never felt as good or accepted by her dad) and not given the affection she needed from her mother (who was busy looking over the younger kids). My W took on the responsibility of trying to salvage the family after her dad left. I
This is my latest theory on how W’s FOO has shaped her and affected our marriage:
W’s mom fought with her Dad, which was a scary experience for W, being around 9 years old at the time. Her Mom could not protect W, leading W to have to abandonment and “not wanting to want” issues. W was angry with her Dad for being the aggressor but also with Mom for not having the strength to stand up to Dad for what W saw as unjustified and bullying behavior over Mom (is this where W’s past bullying behavior comes from?) Ultimately W was angry with Mom for not protecting W. This led W to hate weakness in women and machismo in men, though what she obviously wanted was love, affection, protection from both parents.
This set up a dichotomy of hating weak women and their association with femininity, and strong men and their association with aggressiveness. This made her feel like an outcast with everyone during high school since her hatred dissociated her from the majority of her peers. It destroyed her sense esteem, causing her to build a self image dependent on approval from others – a type of narcissistic supply. This approval was a surrogate for the attention and protection she wanted from her Mom.
W’s strong ego is a manifestation of her narcissism and her need to protect her inner self. Her walls cause her to be very defensive and aggressive. This allows her to have a feeling of control over a chaotic world, plus the show of strength is an offset to her feeling of inferiority vis-à-vis other kids. Rather than having comfort in a secure, nurturing family, she found comfort as a tough, independent, self reliant kid who did not need anyone to help her. This solidified her anger and her refusal to listen to others.
She relates intimacy, vulnerability with fear, pain, anxiety. With regard to us, whether she feels that pain or not seems dependent on whether I am accepting of her or not. In other words, she is dependent on me to reflect back to her the sense of self she has created. She maintains the position that she is unsure of my intentions, therefore she is unsure of what pain lies out there and whether she wants to commit or not. She is held captive by this codependency. Admitting to the desire to commit and be vulnerable to someone else is a sign of weakness, so rather than resolve those fears, she avoids this contradiction by deflecting and focusing on my issues. This requires her to hold onto the past and not let go of resentment and anger. This justifies her not having to make the choice of committing to the marriage, becoming vulnerable and having to face her fears.
On the other hand, she cannot make the decision to reject the marriage either because she truly does have abandonment issues from her past. She knows the damage divorce can have on the kids and does not want to relive that. She also knows she really wants to love and be loved. So she cannot commit to leaving the marriage. Her truly safe and secure zone is to stay trapped in a no-man’s land, not committing either way. Then she does not have to face vulnerability from a “real” relationship or abandonment from divorce.
Actually I did apologize for what I did. I would not apologize for what she did. Before this session, she was asking that I apologize for EVERYTHING, that in one way or another, I was somehow responsible. Now remember that she has still not elected to disarm her attorney. So as long as I think she may be plotting to D and take as many assets as she can (and she has said before that this is exactly what she intends to do), then I will not give her anymore ammunition in court. I have my own financial interests to watch over.
My proposal to her was to make the leap of faith first. Regardless of how she may feel toward me now, what does she WANT? What is her objective? If she does not ever want to be married, then there is little more to discuss and I will not give over any personal assets. If she does want a happy marriage, then I will commit to doing what it takes to get there. There is more at play here than simply acquiescing to an apology.
To your other point, I strongly disagree. It is I who have made the bulk of the progress. She has become stuck over the past few months because intimacy is slowly creeping into the picture. When she starts with her old resentments, I do hold onto myself. But I don’t cave into her either, which is what is ticking her off. I hear her concerns very clearly, too clearly because I know she is really scared and wants security and control. The problem is that her version of this is not something I can deliver. I can and will deliver a healthy version of love, but she needs to get to a position of being able to accept it.
Everyone here seems to get the idea that I am walking over my wife and trying to control and dictate to her. I have tried to think through my actions as clearly as I can and still believe that I am not forcing anything on her, but I am setting boundaries and consequences. She is doing everything she can to put things back the way they were. I won’t go there. She is suffering and scared, which means she is growing and learning.
Gotta comment on the question of blame, assets, and divorce. I think you're either being a bit paranoid, or you think that judges actually care about who takes the blame for what. It is highly unlikely that anything you say in a MC office is even going to be admissible as evidence in court. It is highly unlikely that an apology is going to have any effect on the division of assets, or that an admission of fault regarding an argument years ago will even register on a judge's interest-o-meter.
My advice? Apologize for what you did. Apologize for what she did. Apologize for what the Duke LaCrosse team may or may not have done to the stripper. Just apologize and move forward. You know, as well as I do, that it's not going to make a farking bit of difference whether you apologize for Eve eating the apple, she'll continue to be pissed off is that's what she wants. Apologize. No skin off you're back. Just be sure it sounds sincere. And you should be able to fake that.
So what if she wanted you to apologize for everything? You simply say "I'm sorry"......no qualifications, no further explanations, just an apology.
Why then begin the Commitment discussion? The argument that she can use the apology against you is ludicrous. No court is going to accept that you "made" her act a certain way and that she is not responsible for her actions. You tell her "I'm sorry for anything I did that provoked you." Lead her by your example. Encourage her to take responsibility for her own actions, kwim?
Here is what I see happening and do your best to hear me and not get immediately defensive. I KNOW you've made the bulk of the progress...still, Schnarch maintains that our partners are usually as differentiated as we are and I've found that to be generally true. I see two people who are pointing fingers at each other like a couple of kids. She is saying 'He did this to me!!' and you retort with 'I'm not saying sorry until she admits what SHE did!!'
It's still very much a power struggle and no further progress will be possible while this is going on.
She's not going to commit to the M until you apologize. You're not going to apologize until she commits to the M.
It makes the readers of your thread want to scream! I'm sure you can relate cause I know you've been there on other people's threads.
What she is asking for is insane. She wants someone else to be responsible for her juvenile behavior. There's no need to withhold an apology simply to make the point that she's being nutty. You can make that point SO MUCH more effectively by apologizing sincerely and throwing her nuttiness into the clear light of day. I'm sure the counselor wanted to make the point with her that your apology is for your own behavior and you can't take responsibility for HER behavior but your taking the convo and turning it into a marriage commitment discussion eliminated that possibility.
Now remember that she has still not elected to disarm her attorney. So as long as I think she may be plotting to D and take as many assets as she can (and she has said before that this is exactly what she intends to do), then I will not give her anymore ammunition in court. I have my own financial interests to watch over.
My proposal to her was to make the leap of faith first. Regardless of how she may feel toward me now, what does she WANT? What is her objective? If she does not ever want to be married, then there is little more to discuss and I will not give over any personal assets. If she does want a happy marriage, then I will commit to doing what it takes to get there. There is more at play here than simply acquiescing to an apology.
Why should she take the "leap of faith" if you are not willing to do so yourself? And all this "plotting" to D and "not give over any personal assets" (on both your parts) screams to me the two of you are NO WHERE CLOSE to having that intimate M you speak of. What kind of progress could there possibly be in this set-up?? One thing that strikes me, that you may find trite, is that the two of you are not NICE to each other. I also get ZERO sense of love/like/affection between the two of you (from your posts obviously). Even in our worst moments, H never tried to screw me over financially or even speak poorly of me. How do you possibly justify your actions and words about your W and expect this "intimate" M that you want? Makes no sense to me, and as HP states, it makes me want to scream at your posts sometimes. You seem to have boat- loads of insight about her and yet really not as much as you should about yourself. I have yet to see you write more than few sentences about your own FOO, a major issue for you, yet there are probably 100's of posts regarding your W's FOO, and deflections, and this, and that. Do you truly not see this??
