I really like this thread; printed it and read it during lunch (making notes in the margin, haha). I have to say I agree with BF in his posts; to me his responses are down-to-earth and practical. Sometimes I get bogged down in the Psychoanalysis that goes on here and it makes me avoid the boards for at least a couple of days.
I have to say Dave, You have pulled alot of the 'Schnarch' 'talk' into focus for me.
(Actually; I'm starting to believe that Cobra IS Schnarch. Just admit it Cobra!)
I take the 'differentiate' thing as a 'coming into yourself'. A growth of spirit that changes the (destructive) cycles of your R/M. The crucible is the natural changing of the R, one way or the other that WILL happen by the pressure of the change in oneself. (Did that make sense?)
I must admit that this is relief to me. I was getting the impression that The Crucible was a kind of 'forcing the issue'. To make your S choose a path. Since I have come a long way in 'finding my own self' in this hard time I hated the thought of deciding on a 'time' to 'push' my H into something... and it probably would have just been into a corner!
I have to say though that remaining in this separateness is, at times, difficult. This is evident to me as in I have not worked up the courage to 'not get my feelings hurt' when I am rejected for intimacy. When H did this in the past; it was very painful and I believe is a conditioned response; like Pavolov's dogs. I must untrain myself but I guess my mind is stubborn. I imagine this is why I do not initate at all anymore.
... you should seek out situations as a couple that are catalysts for personal growth and then apply pressure by being your happy, goofy self.
I am happy most of the time... but I'm always goofy!
Thanks for the well wishes. It seems I have a very hard head.
It wasnt an accident Cobra. The crane operator was not following standard procedures, there was a interferance on top of that, and he continued anyways. There was no excuse. It felt like my forhead got caved in. I had to touch it to make sure. My point was there is certain amounts of pain that I cannot handle. once they get crossed, I cannot control the rage. I dont pass out, I dont 'crawl inside' I dont go into shock, or at least not like most. I just want to destroy the cause of the pain. I took it out on the fence post and the outrigger of the crane, but the crane operator hid in his truck. I just observe myself while it happens and keep it directed at objects. I remember having that same observer feeling when berating x.
My face is scraped up, some edema of course, but Im fine.
Ok on to differentiating...
first I dont want to quibble over interdependance and enmeshment. I understand the need for a common vocab to convey our thoughts. I agree with everything you are saying cobra about schnarch. That is a 'perfect scenario'. Reality is our R's and M's are based on romantic love. Attraction. And the cause of romantic love, which we ALL have a desire for, even want, is enmeshment. Mirroring and being mirrored.
No man/woman is an island. We have these needs and desires built into our eprom. there are going to be times when we fall down and it is not wrong or ridiculous to want, even EXPECT the SO to help us back up or at least, stay the course while we get back on track. Thats why we say vows.
One should not depend on the spouse for soothing. The spouse can and should provide comfort and empathy from a position of love
Should. A womans basic need is security. She counts on her H to soothe her, and gets idgited when he is unsure/insecure. That is what is.
The problem I have with jumping too much into the biological needs camp is that there are studies that have shown women who are given security and comfort
No where at anytime have I said providing security and comfort were one of the causes of attraction. In fact women are often very calculating in weighing the pros and cons between attraction and comfort/security. Just as we are often calculating between visually appealing and personality. Actually trying to provide comfort and security often come off as supplicating.
Bad bad bad for attraction. more then one guy here with that pesky habit.
If she has FOO issues, the most alpha of males will not satisfy her. actually its the reverse. ONLY the most alpha will appeal, no matter he is a criminal, abusive, narcisstic, addict.
Remember, such rigidity is to maintain a feeling of control over chaotic situation… a form of self soothing. Very differentiated of me then... LOL. I guess Ill stick with the black/white.
Your comment “So why not use my skills and offer them that apparent out?” is a little self serving. Why would you want to rescue someone in this situation? What could you possibly gain, except for adoration and worship?
I would 'take care of me'... get laid. I dont want to rescue them, thats their projection. yes it is self serving... thats the point of attraction and survival of the fittest. Why worry myself about the fallout and consequeces if that is all there is? Im being devils advocate and dont belive any of what I say. I was 'feeling' it though. Bitterness? resentment? entitlement? power...? who knows. for someone hits and you arent 'making decisions' anymore.
There is value to honor, integrity and commitment. Yes there is. Also self discipline. But biological needs do not recognize this. Exactly.
I decided what I would and wouldnt do a long time ago. I have even looked into the abyss myself when I was married. and now again from the other side. Its disconcerting to be betrayed by thoughts. Fortunately we are defined by our actions... hopefully the present actions are whats judged by our loved ones.
I think this is a good example of the contradictions and weakness of a purely biological needs approach
There is nothing weak about it. Biological needs conquer ideals, decisions, self direction, logic. Lack of respect for their power is the cause of much heart ache. Misunderstanding what they are, and misapplication are common mistakes. Schnarch is just another effort in the struggle to use them to our benefit. I also dont think all of it applies equally to both sexes.
The way you are applying it is working for you though. Im very pleased for you. I hope you connect the two.
My point was there is certain amounts of pain that I cannot handle. once they get crossed, I cannot control the rage. I dont pass out, I dont 'crawl inside' I dont go into shock, or at least not like most. I just want to destroy the cause of the pain. I took it out on the fence post and the outrigger of the crane, but the crane operator hid in his truck. I just observe myself while it happens and keep it directed at objects. I remember having that same observer feeling when berating x. ___________________________________________________
Are you some kind of distant relation? My Dad does this, my H does this too. Sometimes folks on the board get upset when such outbursts are described but I think a lot of men do this. As long as it is directed at something and not someone.
Weirdly, I get the observer feeling not while attacking someone verbally but while being attacked. I think we all have triggers that cause us to hit the detach button.
Quote: No man/woman is an island. We have these needs and desires built into our eprom. there are going to be times when we fall down and it is not wrong or ridiculous to want, even EXPECT the SO to help us back up or at least, stay the course while we get back on track. Thats why we say vows.
What I want to know is WHY are those vows a one way street? Why does one SO expect this when they 'fall down', and I'm talkig all the way into the pitt but refuse to receprocate for a temporary crisis of spirit(mine)? It is VERY frustating watching H fuel and keep alive anger, resentment and the (I swear he does this) NOW I can do anything I want and YOU have to put up with it if you want to save our M!
Last night we had another of our biweekly counseling sessions. For the most part, things have been going pretty well at home, but recently a new issue has popped up. Following are my notes of our session. Sorry for the length, but maybe there is some value to others in the detail ….
W started our session complaining about some arguments we had over the past few weeks relating back to when she went to jail, saying the jail incident was never really discussed before. I let her speak for a while, venting and justifying her anger, saying that she was abused for 14 years, and that her book says that if a counselor states the blame is really 50/50, the victim is just being exposed to more abuse in counseling. She complained that I have never apologized and that she will not commit to the marriage until I make an unconditional apology first. She said I should do this simply because it was the right thing to do.
She went on to explain what happened during the fight, saying that I instigated and perpetuated the fight and manipulated the situation with the police to make it look like she was the perpetrator. She recalled saying to herself that she loves her kids and will not engage with me, but I just had to get my “fix.” She ended by saying she did not know what, if anything, she did that was wrong.
I responded by saying all her statements were horse crap, that she was only seeing things through her eyes. I rebutted the idea of needing an adrenaline “fix,” that it was a theory of the C’s mom (who we had been seeing for MC before) and it was not true, that instead I was reacting out of fear and anxiety. I said W was been abusive too. Her withdrawing, avoiding, running, not talking is all a form of abandonment, if she would just read through her book. C agreed that silence was a form of verbal abuse. I explained to C how in the early days of our marriage I recall a time after she got mad that she did not speak to me for a solid 3 weeks. C seemed shocked to hear this. I recalled the time that period dropped to two weeks as an improvement, but I had been putting up with her abuse for 15 years.
I told W that I know she does not think she was being abusive during our fight, but her distancing was very upsetting and very abusive to me. For her avoiding any form of engulfment is what makes her comfortable and secure. So she thinks she was acting appropriately. But I do not think I was doing anything inappropriate because to me, engaging is a comforting action. I do not see it as abusive. So her actions make her 50% responsible for what happened. I was willing to apologize for my 50% only.
C asked what it would take to move forward, since it sounded like we were both willing to apologize. I said part of the problem is that W has not disarmed, she has not spoken to her lawyer who still has her retainer money. W is going on a statement from C long ago that in the event of divorce I would get visitation rights with the kids only 20% of the time. I said this is giving W confidence that a divorce would still be in her favor.
C discussed custody and visitation in Texas. I stated the standard possession order allows a 47/53 split for visitation. C again asked what it would take to move forward. Would I just apologize? I said that as long as W cannot agree on the objective of committing to the marriage, I cannot be sure all this is not a plot to put herself in a better financial position and then file. W admitted that this was her game plan at one point. I said I had no confidence she had truly dropped this plan, and until then I was not going to acknowledge or apologize for anything that could be used against me.
W said she does not know what is meant by committing to the marriage – she said she does not want to put up with more abuse or give in on her boundaries, etc. C corrected her on this, that while she might hate me now or even later, committing meant she would not resort to divorce as an option, that she will stay and work on the marriage, as hard as it may be. I reiterated Saundra’s initial comment to us that reconciliation will not work as long as either person keeps the divorce escape hatch open, and W has kept one foot out the door. C agreed with this.
I said we need to decide on our objective first, then debate how to get there. C agreed. W said she does not know what she wants since I have not apologized. I asked how does my position affect what she wants? Regardless of how she feels toward me, her wants do not change. She may want a loving marriage, with someone, anyone, but how she feels toward me should not change that want. W said she still needed me to acknowledge instigating and continuing the fight. I said I would and that constituted my 50% of the blame. W said she never heard me acknowledge my part of the blame before.
So I partially apologized, though not as much as C wanted. W was silent for a while (she seemed to be trying not to cry), then said she did not think it sounded like an apology. I said I would not accept responsibility for W’s actions and would not apologize for that. I did say, with C’s prompting, that I was sorry for what happened, that things turned out as they did, and for the damage done to the kids. Up to this point I was able to hold myself together and not get upset or yell.
W still had trouble agreeing to commit to the marriage. I then got mad and told her she was still avoiding, deflecting, even lying and not accepting her responsibility. She acted surprised and asked what it was she was doing. I told her that she was again avoiding her issues and her fear, being a chicken [censored] and not wanting to face her own decision, instead throwing it back on me. I told her committing to the marriage meant facing her fears on intimacy and vulnerability. Her other choice was to avoid this option and decide to leave the marriage, but she was too chicken to make that decision. So she tries to deflect the issues back onto me as my fault in order to avoid her choice. I told her that she complains that the issues always come back to her, but that is because she will not make a decision. C agreed that she needs to decide one way or the other but she cannot remain indecisive. C also told her to think about her choice, that on one hand she would get everything she wants, the money, love, caring, a united family. She did not need to make the decision now and could think about it.
I then commented that this is where W needed to make a leap of faith. I explained that I came to this realization myself some time back, after listening to W accuse me of have bad intentions for everything I did. I said that the only way I could have move forward at that time was to make the assumption that everything W did was not out of malice but due to her issues. If W wants to assume the worst, she can create a self fulfilling prophecy, but it was all deflection to put fault on me and give her reason not to confront her choice.
I concluded with mention that she needs to realize that much of what we argue over, especially concerning the kids, will not create much damage one way or the other. For example, whether the kids should be home schooled or not does not have much impact one way or another. The continued arguing is what created the damage. It is how we handle the process and not the end result that hurts the kids and the relationship. Knowing that those objectives really should not create problems, it should be easier to make the leap of faith to commit to the marriage, which in and of itself is a harmless matter.
As we left I reiterated with her and C that the ball is in W’s court and she owes me an answer as to which way she wants to go with the marriage. I recalled the last time we discussed all this W thought the matter was settled and did not realize she had still not answered my question.
What a struggle. So the relative peace and good will of the last few weeks was an illusion? She kind of reminds me of my bf in that one can't seem to build up a store of good will to call upon later. In an instant the store of good will can be zeroed out. Or am I reading this wrong?
P.S. Thanks for your support of me and my comments over the last couple of weeks.
Actually the past few months have been fairly good. We’ve had some arguments, but each of us has been able to contain ourselves and pick up on a cordial basis the next day. Its just the past two weeks or so she’s been giving excuses to not have sex…. well, more like just disappearing and going to bed. Part of this is understandable since last week was the last week of school for her and she has been short on sleep trying to wrap up the semester. But this past weekend seemed more deliberate and it ticked me off, so I made a big issue of it. I don’t want to let her think I will let this slide. I went all summer without sex last year and don’t intend to do it again, so I am holding very strongly to my boundaries.
Overall I think the session was actually very good. I held onto myself by thinking “Mojo, Mojo, Mojo,” recalling the deflection we worked through on this board. That was a very valuable experience for me. It is hard for me to tell who deflects more, the old Mojo or my wife (not meaning to pick on you Mojo). This board and all the posting I have been doing has also been invaluable. I think I can see my W’s issues pretty clearly now, and it is just a matter of finding ways to present her issues in a way that gets through.
The crucible I put her in worked out well I thought. Her choice is obvious and very non- threatening, at least to most people. So when she bounces the matter off her friends, I would think they will also see the choice as obvious. It will be interesting to see how she answers the question. It think she is struggling how to acknowledge and accept her wanting of intimacy and especially acceptance, but without becoming vulnerable. So I am waiting for the deflections, and will turn each one back as they come. I also want to make a note of the number of deflections and how hard she struggles with them. That will give me an indication (and hopefully her too) of how much denial she is in (actually I know how much denial she has – tons!)
The other interesting aspect of this crucible is that she has complained for so long about all the criticisms I made of her, my anger, my pursuing the argument, not helping enough around the house and on and on…. I don’t think she can put any of those arguments up know. There is little left on her list. So my question to her will be if she could not get close to me before due to her list, and she still cannot get close with the list resolved, how much influence did the list really have? How much influence do I really have, or could this have something to do with her. Having to face her choice will bring a lot of issues to the front. Her day of self reckoning is coming.
So to answer your question, I think her problem is that her love bank is not capable of holding love unit because she has these underlying FOO issues that perpetuate her anger. And she does not want to fix the bank because the consequence of having a healthy love bank is way too scary.
P.S. Thank you for all your posts. You have been extremely enlightening lately.
Quote: The other interesting aspect of this crucible is that she has complained for so long about all the criticisms I made of her, my anger, my pursuing the argument, not helping enough around the house and on and on…. I don’t think she can put any of those arguments up know.
Yes, she can actually. Those behaviors she complained about went on for quite some time right? You may not be doing those things now but she CAN still hold resentment over past behavior, she CAN still mistrust your new behavior for awhile....BUT what you CAN do is point out to her when she does mention these things that your behavior has and is changing. When she does put those arguments up it's then your turn to assure her that those behaviors are changing and remind her gently of that.
IMPO...if she does ever throw those behaviors up it's a sign of resentment of past behavior and mistrust of your current behavior....and therefore your opportunity to assure her it won't happen any longer.
I imagine this is why I do not initate at all anymore. 
