Following up to Lilliepearl’s thread on differentiation, I thought it might be helpful to start a new topic on Schnarch’s idea of the crucible. As background, he uses this term to mean the process of self confrontation, either for yourself or your spouse. Schnarch describes several steps as prerequisites to entering the crucible. One of the basic requirements is differentiation. Lils thread explains this concept which is important to identifying issues that are truly yours versus those that aren’t, to avoid getting stuck in a tit-for-tat struggle, and to stay on-message hen applying pressure without getting side-tracked. If your spouse is the one in the crucible, not staying focused on the issue at hand can allow him/her to escape the crucible.
Schnarch defines a few activities of differentiation that he terms “holding onto yourself.”
• Maintaining a clear sense of who your are as you become increasingly intimate with a partner who is increasingly important to you… (which may require the FOO analysis) • Maintaining a sense of perspective about your anxieties, limitations, and shortcomings so that they neither drive nor immobilize you. • The willingness to engage in self confrontation necessary for growth. • Acknowledging your projections and distortions (again requiring FOO work) • Tolerating the pain involved in growing… (see chapter 12 for a complete discussion)
Schnarch describes constructing your crucible as “extracting your unresolved personal issues embedded in your gridlocked situation and confronting them as an act of integrity.” Basically this means making a choice, such as tolerating less sex and maintaining the status quo or pushing some sort of confrontation in order to raise the level of sex.
As we have seen on so many of these threads, and now most recently Fighting4Wife, pushing your spouse into the crucible before you are able to handle the resulting reactions can be disastrous. I believe it is critical to have a good handle on your own issues before turning up the pressure, otherwise YOU are bound to erupt (and you should EXPECT your spouse is going to erupt). If you cannot hold onto yourself, then possibly irreparable damage can occur. F4W is there. I was almost there too. Mojo has been gracious enough to let us see the process firsthand and understand the personal pain we must go through to learn differentiation, to begin to identify our two choice dilemmas, or determine if the issue is even important enough to put forth to our spouse as a dilemma.
We all are working on ourselves via this board and the advice we learn here. But our spouses generally are not doing this and many of us seem frustrated that their spouse will not grow or confront their own issues. Since I am not a fan of sitting back and waiting forever for my W to confront her issues, I believe applying a certain amount of pressure is often necessary. But not matter how much or what kind of pressure is applied, I believe it is critical to keep focus on the objective you want to achieve. It is not uncommon for an alternate path to open up that will still meet your objective, but people get hung up on trying to take THEIR preconceived path only. Not a wise strategy.
So how do we put out spouse into the crucible? What types of strategies have you used for what types of issues, situations and personality types?
Since I pose the question, I will go first. Long ago I watched a very experienced realtor negotiate a new office lease for my company. His strategy was to first get both parties to commit to achieving a common objective – signing a mutually agreeable office lease. As issues and disagreements came up, the question asked each time was whether compromising one that point was worth losing the lease. Consistently each party met each other half way and we signed a very good lease.
In my marriage, I tried to do the same thing. It took some time to work through my anger and that of my wife, but we were eventually able to agree that we did not want to divorce. This agreement was long in coming and very painful, requiring me to retain a lawyer and begin drawing up papers. My wife, who had usually been the one throughout our marriage to threaten divorce, was suddenly trying to find a way to “get out of this mess.” This allowed us to work out some of our disagreements and make compromises to hold to our objective.
The problem I experienced in the past is that she was not truthful with herself when she would threaten divorce. When I called her bluff, she realized it was not something she wanted to do. The major factor was the kids, but they were not a concern before. Her own deception contributed to us staying in gridlock.
As we went through this struggle, neither one of us was sufficiently differentiated to maintain the ground we had gained. The anger and resentment were also still present. We had another blow-up, pushed each other’s buttons, and this time I called the cops on her. Had we both been more differentiated I think this situation could have been avoided. We each needed the ability to hold onto ourselves in order to not react to those pushed buttons as well as helping us to better understand the other’s requests rather than denying the validity of those requests.
This second incident was an even larger crucible for both of us. This is where we dropped the games and started listening to each other. She especially began to listen to me. I am still working on this in counseling, trying to present contradictions to her about her denials and also teaching the kids to speak up for themselves. The added benefit of this is that she will listen to hard truths from them when she will not listen to the same thing from me.
Quote: As we have seen on so many of these threads, and now most recently Fighting4Wife, pushing your spouse into the crucible before you are able to handle the resulting reactions can be disastrous. I believe it is critical to have a good handle on your own issues before turning up the pressure, otherwise YOU are bound to erupt (and you should EXPECT your spouse is going to erupt). If you cannot hold onto yourself, then possibly irreparable damage can occur. F4W is there. I was almost there too. Mojo has been gracious enough to let us see the process firsthand and understand the personal pain we must go through to learn differentiation, to begin to identify our two choice dilemmas, or determine if the issue is even important enough to put forth to our spouse as a dilemma.
A bit of exception to the use of my situation in your thread. First I am not angered, so do not read this as such.
I will state that the only ones that know the relationship is those in the relationship. I am fully prepared for the fall out of my actions, which were not fear driven but rather confrontational from her actions and non-actions that we had agreed to cease doing, and the results and threats that my wife has made. That does not mean that I am going to jump for joy that they will or might happen. It does not mean that I am going to enjoy the devastating effects of them. But to stay in limbo or paralyzed by inaction and fear of the what may happen is not being differentiated. I have researched and gotten information that makes the result if she follows through very unpalletable. But also, the result of not moving forward (gridlock, which I believe is a Gottman term) is also not pallettable. So it comes down to what are you willing to compromise and live with.
As stated the solution that my wife is choosing is one that stems from her fears and her inability or unwillingness to look at them and address them. That is her growth that is not taking place.
I agree that frustrations do creep in when we see ourselves applying effort and gaining knowledge for growth and our partners remain in the dark, holding onto a defensive stance and lashing out and throwing blame. Yes I was there, yes we all get there.
Oddly I see similarities in where you were with your wife and where I am right now. The outcomes may be completely different because the realtionships and factors in them are completely different.
Who is to say that this is not the genesis of my wife's journey for her own personal change. That journey may or may not include me as her spouse. That is her choice. But to say that where I am at and the status of our relationship as irrepairable, is a bit of an assumption and fatalistic.
I am quite able to hold onto myself. But I am also going to state that holding onto yourself does not mean that you are devoid of emotional human response and feelings. We are not robotic in our interpersonal communications. If divorce is the final outcome of this than the proof of being differentiated comes in how I grieve the end of my marriage and how I move past it in time.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
Quote: I am quite able to hold onto myself. But I am also going to state that holding onto yourself does not mean that you are devoid of emotional human response and feelings.
Did you get the idea that "holding on to yourself" means that you don't have feelings or that you become a robot?
Quite the contrary.
Holding on to yourself means you FEEL the feelings without distracting yourself by precipitous reactions, without distracting yourself by lashing out and making your feelings the other person's fault.
It means that when they throw gasoline on you, don't defend yourself or throw gasoling back. You simply stand there and burn. It is just about the most challenging thing you can do...
Thanks for the Schnarch Cliff Notes and the background info on your sich. What is your situation sexually? Did you decide that sex really wasn't your issue and that control issues surrounding parenting were more critical or is it just that you have to resolve the parenting issues before you can resolve your sexual issues? Did your W's bid for dominance in parenting make you seek to prove your dominance sexually beyond your natural desire for sexual pleasure? Of course, I've come up with this theory based on the theories you've suggested for me which didn't ring true (LOL).
It's interesting to me that both you and my H at times have interpreted my desire to initiate sex as a desire for dominance or control. This is obviously a basic fear for most men- the fear of being the f*ckee rather than the f*cker. Though, of course, it is also a strong primitive fantasy for many/most men also, which is why the "Bend Over Boyfriend" DVD is a constant bestseller at Good Vibrations. However, the fact of the matter is that 90% of the time I initiate sex with my husband I am thinking "Please f*ck my brains out." not "I want to f*ck your brains out". Really any man who finds himself with a woman who is thinking "I want to f*ck your brains out" should consider himself very lucky since that is an honor/feeling that women usually reserve for rock stars. For instance, I have a friend who had sex with a famous author who is probably one of the Top 20 Eligible Bachelors on the planet. I saw her the next day and when I asked her how their date went she said "I f*cked his brains out.".
Sorry, I guess I went off-topic here. Back to the crucible.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Sorry, didn’t mean to offend you by citing your sitch, but I do believe you were not as well prepared as you could have been to handle the confrontation that occurred. But in a tense situation like yours, it is tough to do much growth. Defenses are just way to high. My point is that the work needs to occur before emotions enter the “red zone” as the Dog Whisperer puts it. Once in that zone, there is little you can do. My advice is geared toward never getting into that zone. It is too much of a knife edge.
Mojo,
What is your situation sexually?
Before all this blew up the first of this year, I had gone almost 4 months without sex. Then maybe sex for one or two times for a week or so, then another long dry spell. Now things have become more regular, about twice a week. Understandably my drive was very high before, being sex starved, but now it has diminished considerably. The analogy of food being the first priority to a starving man is very apropos for me. I found that my drive has moderated and is a lower priority now. It is still important to me but not as all consuming as it once was.
There is also more comfort in knowing that if I don’t have sex one weekend, I can still get it soon. Before, if I had a chance for sex and an argument came up, my next chance was completely uncertain and maybe weeks or months away. This created a lot of anger in me.
Did you decide that sex really wasn't your issue and that control issues surrounding parenting were more critical or is it just that you have to resolve the parenting issues before you can resolve your sexual issues?
Parenting issues were only part of the overall control issues. A while back money was a major problem. We could never get out of debt. No matter how my income grew over time, the spending went right along with it so that the leftover margin for debt payment/savings never changed. I finally cancelled the joint checking and took her off all my credit cards. I took myself off her credit cards but missed one. She pulled $8,300 in cash off that one which I have finally paid down. The other credit cards are now under control. Hopefully I can start saving soon. She is also working now and has her own money. I pay all the bills so she has no expenses other than gas, maybe a little food here and there, some toys/clothes for the kids. She put up a fight about this and brought it up in counseling several times but could never get a sympathetic ear. We have not argued over money for some time now.
She has also learned to let me have a say so over the kids. TKD was a big issue or a while. I have backed off pushing TKD and making the kids go to tournaments, though I would still like for them to attend at least once a year (and it’s been a year since their last tournament). Home schooling was an issue at one time too. I was opposed to this but tolerated it for a year. Now they are all in public school and doing well so that has settled down. Arguments over my side of the family was another thing. I’ve stopped seeing my family as much so that too has diminished, though it is also partly due to busier schedules as the girls get older. So time has taken care of a lot of our problems. My taking action and forcing some changes has cured other things. Growth by both of us has helped to cure the rest.
Did your W's bid for dominance in parenting make you seek to prove your dominance sexually beyond your natural desire for sexual pleasure?
No, I don’t think this ever played a factor. I’ve never had any issues sexually and have always been more willing to do more than just the standard positions. She is a little more reserved, but not prudish.
We don’t have that kind of heavy EC type of “making love” sex that you have as new lovers in college. But the sex is still good so I don’t really care. My only complaint is that she doesn’t like to show her belly, where she has excess skin and fat. She has said she would like to get a tummy tuck, which I am fine with, but I don’t know when she’ll ever do that.
The struggles we had were more for control over issues rather than exerting dominance over one another. This distinction is subtle but significant. To me, dominance is trying to subjugate me and I never felt she was trying to do that. I was not trying to subjugate her either, though I’m not sure how she felt about it.
Again, I agree somewhat with that. Again, as intelligent as I feel I may be at sometimes, the situation being so close sometimes clouds my objectiveness.
I understand and I do beleive the nature of our conflict in my M is one that cannot be fixed without counseling, to this we have both agreed upon. The stepping into the fray was not the right move at that time but was on the horizon, no matter which way I moved. I am not in a power play situation anymore from my perspective because through my actions and hers I have relinquished my power of influence in regards to "how" we were interacting.
The "cliff notes" as MoJo put it, help even more now. As does Lil's gruesome image of being set aflame! OUCH!
I would be interested in how you and your W started repair after your flirtation with divorce proceedings. A new thread? A posting on mine?
No real offense taken Cobra. As I stand by my actions in real life, I stand and take accountability for them here, and see you point and where you were going.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
There is nobody more differentiated then a person having an affair.
Sorry Blackfoot, this is wrong. I find it very hard to conceive of a truly differentiated person having an affair. People like this are usually very enmeshed and have the affair to get back at their spouse, to flex some power, to defy the abandonment they feel from their spouse. The truly differentiate person will try to work through the problems, and then if it can be resolved, divorce.
Im really glad you found schnarchy and that his communication style gets across to you what you need to do. Your doing excellent with it, though I dont think you get why, yet.
I know exactly why you think a highly differentiated style is what I need – because it paints me in the alpha male role. But I disagree that a pure alpha male model is the objective toward which one should strive. Maybe it is fine for dogs, but I find it insufficient for humans. I think your comment on Heather’s thread that you would blow up here truck is a case in point. Burgbud rebutted that comment quite nicely I thought. A show of dominance and power is great for animals, but it usually won’t cut it with people. There are some people with whom it will work, but I think these are often weaker, more passive, follower types and they don’t always stay followers.
One problem with too much alpha male is that you run the risk of the rule “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” If you believe in the animalistic nature of man, you cannot discount this truth. Every man has his price. No one is beyond corruption. Too much power leads to arrogance which will ultimately lead to relationship problems.
I think the better approach is to develop power through self awareness, training, whatever, but harness it with humility. This is tough to do but true differentiation is one way to achieve it since this requires the ability to hold onto yourself as your partner flexes his/her muscle. Acknowledging and accepting this blends well with humility.
Nothing in her current behavior is likely to be found in that other book you like so much.
Stop being cryptic. What other book are you talking about?
Hopefully mine wont be too erratic. I got smashed in the face with a 8' fence post yesterday, and got concussed, by an irresponsible crane operator. Venting. I live on the edge a lot. But I dont put others at risk. In fact Im usually the saftey guy at work. So I got kinda pissed. Pain like that just puts me in a rage. anyways,
Ive been away from the boards because there were some conversations going on for a while that were emphasizing to me that there really is nothing more then attraction in R's. (sometimes Im kinda slow...) I was becoming disillusioned. Probably a good thing. I was beginning to --feel-- there was no point to honor, integrity, commitment. Probably just a normal part of the recovery process, but I needed to remove myself from part of what was exacerbating my issue. I was really coming close to walking a path that I should... I did and do find unconcionable. Ive always been a person with strong black/white--right/wrong. Im very mentally flexable, try to eliminate ego, but there are certain things that you have to make non negotiable. For yourself. Real concrete and steel inner boundaries.
Ex. Married women are off limits. Women with BF's are off limits. One of the very first questions I ask when meeting a woman is 'Are you single' After many acquaintences of both sexes saying things like 'BF's arent husbands' and 'There is no ring on this finger' I was waffling. Ah... but to what point does the BF rule extend to. Friends with benefits? Dating for 1 year? Living together for 5 years?...... Pretty much a 21st century marriage IMO. So if thats acceptable, why not married women? Just a POP. The unhappy ones are just looking for a way out, Right? or maybe get there H's attention. or just a side fling. So why not use my skills and offer them that apparent out? I was rationalizing, and spiraling down. This place wasnt at fault but it wasnt helping me either.
Anyways Im not dealing with your comments to me, these are my issues that have nothing to do with SSM. Just thought Id give a quick? update on why I left for a while. Ive had to change my awareness on some things, while keeping my values. ok enough babbling.
differentiate:--1. to perceive differences or distinctions between. Example Some persons cannot differentiate blue and green. Synonyms tell (5) , discriminate , distinguish (1) , tell apart {apart (PHR)} Crossref. Syn. contrast Similar Words demarcate , separate Definition 2. to indicate or constitute a difference between. Example Their songs differentiate the two similar birds. Crossref. Syn. distinguish Similar Words characterize , define , mark1 Definition 3. to cause to become different or distinct, esp. by changing. Example He differentiated himself from his twin brother by learning to ski.
Similar Words , separate
I really dont care for the word myself. I prefer concepts like above the chess board, outside the fray, etc. I stand by my remark. When a person has an affair they have changed(differentiated). They have seperated (differentiated), emotionally /mentally. The compare (differentiate) the OP to the SO. They are a liar. They have completely nullified the vows, that they expressed on their wedding day. And when a typical (for the most part psych healthy) woman has an affair, its becuase you no longer have a very high biological value too her. So she really doesnt care how you respond. (thats pretty differentiated) Shes got a replacement lined up. At least thats how their feelings are driving them.
So I stick by my statement that they are extremly differentiated. They are doing what In there opinion is "best for them". They are enmeshing themselves with a different person, becuase of a perceived (true or not) lack in the SO ability to sooth there need, desire, want. Even despite the pain of loss(withdrawal), guilt, etc. Its all very foggy. Kind off like people on drugs, who think they are doing amazing things, or saying profound things, untill they see/hear a recording of it played back later and they realize.... boy that was really effing dumb.
I agree with your comments though.
Quote: I find it very hard to conceive of a truly differentiated (how about self aware. cognizant. responsible for self. someone who lives there life instead of letteing life live them. ) person having an affair. People like this are usually very enmeshed (husband and wife will be enmeshed. its unavoidable, and is not a negative aspect.) and have the affair to get back at their spouse, (self destructive. vengeful. misplaced emotional energy. irrational. immature.) to flex some power, to defy the abandonment they feel (perception abilities. Making choices. Making decisions.) from their spouse. The truly differentiate self sufficient, non needy) person will try to work through the problems, and then if it can be resolved, divorce.
Hey look. a whole bunch of reasons not to get involved with married women, or women with BF's.
I know exactly why you think a highly differentiated style is what I need – because it paints me in the alpha male role. What you have been doing is being more assertive and puting your needs in a place of priority. You have also taken steps towards taking and having power Women find that attractive. Period. It is what it is.
But I disagree that a pure alpha male model is the objective toward which one should strive As much as I dont like seeing it discussed around here in general, I liked mojos comment on the difference between Alpha and Omega. I dont like it because most of the women on this forum DO in fact have Alpha H's or they would NOT in fact desire them so much. because of proximity or enmeshment they fixate on that ONE area of insecurity that they MUST have there H's fix, and find that even though they are great problem solvers or teriffic with helping OP baby step thru issues, becuase its there H they get 'icked'. Lack of appreciaton. Lack of perception control. You and I are here though so we can take it as a warning to continue to work on ourselves, remove/work on our insecurities, and when they challange us, do what we can, but differentiate by letting them deal with it, and definitely not apologizing when we cant or wont.
You have a great desire to be pysch healthy. You want to be fair, a good person, ethical. That is how I see you. (Oh yeah I dont really think you are narcisstic. I was just having fun throwing labels around. I knew you could handle it. He he he I love a full circle. ) I want to be those things too. But I also want my SO to desire me and want to F me senseless .... often. And there are certain manifestatations of behavior that create this desire in women. If you dont see it yet from the convos going on around here...... shrug. Yes they have to be balanced.
I think your comment on Heather’s thread that you would blow up her truck is a case in point. Burgbud rebutted that comment quite nicely I thought.
He didnt rebutt it at all. His comparison wasnt even apropos. Lets look at what I did. I took a symbol of the affair, and I destroyed it. yes it may have been theatrical, over the top and emotional. But I was venting anger towards an object/symbol. NOT a person, and not in a unsafe manner. I dont think the desert sands would be harmed long term by the outburst/explosion. . The action was also proactive --which is appreciated by females. Even when it should be their proaction. I dont think it was escalating either. I would happily replace the hated symbol with something else. Yes, selling it may be more financially sound. More emotionally controlled. Which I am for. So Mrs. Nops suggestion idea was much better, of course.
What burgbed suggested ---blowing up a persons vehicle who expressed that there spouse betraying them was more emotionally painful (which is a concious choice by there spouse and possible something they could have been a contributing factor too.) then there childs victimization (out of their control. The child truly is a VICTIM.) by another person is called vandalism and intolerance. Burgbud may have less of a emotional reaction to his SO cheating on him but Thats no call to engage in destruction of anothers personal property for expressing their feeling.
what I do with my property is my business. Expressing my self on other peoples property is not legal or acceptable.
Stop being cryptic. What other book are you talking about? Not my intention. I thought it would be obvious. "The women men adore and never want to leave."
Cobra. I think your doing really well. I just want you to remember that you will never get to a point in your R with your W where the 'tests', drama, issues, problems will completely go away. She will always need some sort of emotional juice to keep her needs/wants satisfied. To feel that you care and have a connection. If the drama/tests do go away you will find her becoming LD again. I know you want peace, quiet, free of strife life. Learn to stay above the fray when they happen, and enjoy/or at least deal with being in it.
Look at it like this. You want her to trust you. believe that you have good intentions for her and your family. She does. Once in a while she just has to test and make sure. If you pass it, which means doing what is best for you/her/ the family--preferable with a magnanimous dispostion, things will return to peace and quiet. If you dont--if you intead, acquiesce, and you try to 'fix it' with supplicating or placation... it will rapidly degenerate into her being less and less happy and more and more not nice, irritable, and testing you. She will be 'icked' out by you and there is nothing she can do to change that feeling. Only you can.
for example, In your sitch. she may complain about the finacial arrangement. You and she KNOW that she has not proven to be trustworthy or reliable with it. If she complained and you were to give her free reign again.... without a slow buildup and necessity of her showing increasing responsiblity in that area, that would be placating and not best for the family. She may want it and even nag about it, but in reality doing it will lead to disrespect for you from her.
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