It's been some time since I posted an update on my own thread so here goes...
Things have pretty much settled in at the GEL household...as Honeypot so aptly put it....fairly boring LOL. My H (as expected) settled back to his routine of affection, but not initiating (once again...I expected this to happen). He's made great strides when it comes to communicating...he just still won't push through that one thing that holds him back from asking for sex. He thinks about it, he enjoys it, he just won't....actually make it happen. I'm not pushing for it either.
I have found (that like some others here) my own libido has taken a dip. I think about sex, sure...but right now...I could pretty much care less about it. If he asked me for it, sure I'd go for it....but right now, just don't have the energy towards pursuing it. That ebb could be due to many things...my work schedule has increased tremendously and I'm constantly on the run with that, it's hotter than Hades here in OK, and well....our 3yr old has a way of just draining whatever energy I have left at the end of the day....completely out LOL, oh and he had been in Honduras working on a plane for a week...then came home to working an opposite shift from mine as well for 4-weeks. So...I haven't been really concerned about "sex"...at least we are communicating really well.
He's still making efforts for us to have our date nights, which I really appreciate...that at least has stuck with him LOL. We've also agreed that beginning in a couple of weeks (our next MC session, we haven't had one in quite some time) that he will begin going alone....to concentrate on this last piece of the puzzle, because he's the only one that can produce the key.
We haven't had any further issues with his online activities (fortunately for him), but it's going to take me more time to re-build my trust for him. I trust him to an extent, but I find that at certain times I still get very wary when he's alone at home...and that's just going to take time to go away. As we know already, he tends to have a knee jerk reaction when I ask questions of him to well...lie if he feels he's going to get in trouble. When I call BS though, the truth comes out. That's why I call it a knee-jerk reaction....and this is getting better too.
For example....a few weeks ago I came across a bottle of Viagra that he had (he'd had it since we were dating and these issues began...right around the time he got his job back and well, the sex thing didn't fix itself...it was an old bottle.) Now, this in itself didn't freak me out....what I found bothered me was he had this medication, and NEVER told me he had it, that he'd tried it, that this was something he was doing to try to figure out what was wrong....you know, that he was actually doing SOMETHING to try to figure out this issue. Not to mention that there were some pills missing....which when I asked him about them, he told me "I never messed with the stuff" (knee-jerk reaction), and I called BS by saying "You never messed with the stuff...yet there are # pills missing from this prescription? Hmmmm...I think we need to put you on Aricept for your memory instead of Viagra, cause you have the worst friggin memory of anyone I've ever met." Then the truth came out about what he had done...his Dr. wouldn't give him a prescription because he didn't think it would help, so he ordered it online (true)...and was advised to try 1/2 pill a couple of times (which added up). We managed to talk it out....and we talked a bit about it again later. Ironically enough when we were watching tv that evening....one of the characters pulled out a viagra and referred to it as the "middle-aged mans best friend"....we both looked at each other and just busted out laughing!!!
Now...to something that happened last night that I found interesting, and perhaps key (I don't know). My H was talking with his folks in GA last night, and from the conversation I could tell they were inquiring about our finances (my H is an open book with them about our finances, which doesn't bother me.) My H has a great deal of credit card debt....partially due to him, partially due to his XW, and partially due to the time that he lost his job and was fighting to get it back. Anyway....he was paying a great deal a month to these cards and getting nowhere fast due to interest rates and now the doubled minimum payments....he was never going to be able to pay them off at the rate we could afford to pay. His parents made a hugely generous gesture.....they have offered to pay both of the credit cards off (I told you very generous.) Not only are they paying them off but they've told my H that if he absolutely feels he must pay them back (and that's how my H is) that he can send them half of what he had been paying on the cards (which will have this debt paid off in just a few years)....and they will put that money into an educational fund for our son and match what we pay. What an amazing gesture huh?!!
Anyway...I noticed after my H got off the phone with his folks (and we were watching tv a bit) that he was just sitting there silently crying. I have NEVER seen my H cry with the exception of Extreme Home Makeovers LOL....I have never seen him cry from true emotion, it was so refreshing to see him letting something out for once. The stress of those credit cards was truly weighing him down (which btw I do understand). Now, I haven't said anything to him in quite some time about showing me affection or anything like that....I've just pretty much backed off of that for quite some time. Without me saying anything out of the blue he comes, sits by me on the couch, puts his head on my lap and tells me "I know I don't show you I love you, I don't act like it, I don't say it....but I sure do....more than you could ever know." I guess the timing of this surprised me more than anything, but it was a nice surprise that's for sure. He's making progress...and I'm sure the stress of this debt being relieved helped too.
So, I'm going to just continue on as I have been and observe. I'm curious to see if the weight of this debt being lifted changes some of his behaviors....even if that means he's just more light-hearted, I'll be curious to watch and see. At least for the next four weeks we are back on the same work-schedule, that always helps too :-)
Well...that's pretty much it for now. See...boring LOL.
Re GEL after my H got off the phone with his folks (and we were watching TV a bit) that he was just sitting there silently crying I am one of those guys that worries about debt too. although sometimes I can't put my finger on a problem (debt) I know I used to think about It a lot, which took away my ability to spend more time thinking about the marital relationship. Maybe this is similar to how your H operates.
they have offered to pay both of the credit cards off I did something like this for my D35. I did a partial of the total and paid off the 3 highest interest cards. She had 6 cards she was paying on.
Back to your H, I hope, with the CC debt behind him he can spend more mental energy on the R.
(knee-jerk reaction), I called BS by saying "You never messed with the stuff... you have the worst friggin memory of anyone I've ever met." Then the truth came out about what he had done....... We managed to talk it out....
Good for you guys. Do you ever go over a situation like this in a week or two, not to review who did what to prove a point, but to encourage Mr GEL to be more open and emphasise no one got nailed to the cross, it was not about who did what, it was about being honest and it was OK if he did something that was not perfect.
I think a guys work carries over into his home life. At work, he has to do the procedures according to a set of rules and there are few chances to experiment and no chances to be caught making mistakes, so he has learned to do the best he can at home and that includes not being discovered in an area you might consider (in his mind) as wrong or a mistake.
In some ways he does not want to differ with you. In some ways he might not want to be seen as having any flaws. And of course there is the view he sees as right and proper that might differ from your views. All or most of this might be considered conflict avoidant on a non-power trip level, or to some people passive/aggressive.
....even if that means he's just more light-hearted, I'll be curious to watch and see Good frame of mind GEL. If you see something more light-hearted, point it out to him and ask him if having less debt is the reason for any changes. He might not be aware of it as much as he should in your eyes.
About paying his parents back, I think that would be a good idea for him, and them in the long run, not to mention the kids college fund. If he does (my way of thinking) he won't mentally owe them one and will be able to think of himself as a person that needs help from time to time rather than as someone that needs help. I just think a persons equity in a relationship is sounder when the money is paid back, even if it is at a slower than the normal rate.
GEL, that is my $0.02 and keep in mind I placed a high value on what I do as a person and as a man on the work I did, and the money I earn to a lesser degree.
Some women might get too much of their self-esteem from thinking of them-self as a good mother and how well their children are doing. I think there are a lot of men that equate their value as a person to how well they are doing at work and how good of a job they have. I can't tell you how much finances, work pressures played a part in our M when it shouldn't have. I didn't see it till much later. I hope your H is different. FWIW.
Thanks for the feedback. And...yes, I do bring things up a couple weeks later when the right situation comes up....and I reinforce that #1 it's ok to make mistakes, and #2 I'm not out to crucify the man. I emphasize that I'm not on a fault-finding mission, I simply want an honest relationship. If either of us screws up, as long as we are honest about it, it can be worked through.
As for the loan his parents have made...yes it will be paid back. In fact I just got off the phone with my MIL who asked me to draw up a promissory note with the amortization schedule etc...so we can have it notarized and formalize things. It's just better for everyone all the way around. This way we will have everything paid off in seven years rather than....never....so now there is a a light at the end of the tunnel for my H (and it's not a train.) :-)
I have no doubt that you are probably on target as you your comment about his work-behavior and his home behavior too. Where he works if someone messes up....they are crucified, made examples of, and often ridiculed in front of others. He did tell me too when it came to the Viagra that "that's just not something guys talk about"...I understand that frame of thinking, but it's pretty important information when a couple is going through what we have....and that's what I conveyed to him. He's making progress about it.
I think you can chalk your H's deceptive behavior regarding the Viagra up to the male tendency to not want to seek out help. Sort of the equivalent of a guy who realizes he is lost and really needs to look at a map but still doesn't want to look at the map in front of his woman so sneaks a peek in the men's room instead. It's like he didn't really have to look at the map if nobody know that he actually did. Self-deception more than anything.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I'm not really all that concerned about him not telling me about the Viagra (although I will admit it was shocking to run across after knowing about his online activities, so in a way it was a trigger for me)...that's actually something I CAN understand. The thing I was pointing out to him is that...when I was asking him (many times in the beginning of this process) WHAT it was he was trying (when he told me he was "working on it")....IF he had confided that in me, it would have really eased my mind. Instead, from my perspective....it looked like he was doing nothing. On that aspect, he agreed with me.
Do I understand why he would have hesitated to share the fact that he was trying that medication? Oh heck yeah, I can definitely see that as a guy thing.
I think you can chalk your H's deceptive behavior regarding the Viagra up to the male tendency to not want to seek out help. Sort of the equivalent of a guy who realizes he is lost and really needs to look at a map but still doesn't want to look at the map in front of his woman so sneaks a peek in the men's room instead. It's like he didn't really have to look at the map if nobody know that he actually did. Self-deception more than anything.
I agree that this self-deceptive behavior on the part of men, and that there are situations where your reasoning applies. But for the most part, from my perspective, I see men acting this way for another reason. Men are trained, conditioned and bred to have at least some aspects of alpha in them. What level they achieve varies, but I think most boys look at becoming the alpha football quarterback a lot like girls lot to become the head cheerleader. There is admiration, praise, self esteem involved from same sex peers. There is also the understanding that the opposite values these qualities too.
One of the trials of men is to find where they stand in the “pecking” order. Natural athletic ability determines this in sports, intellect in the classroom, charisma and looks in dating. Many men learn that they need to accept that their natural limitations are lower than others (remember that line from Dirty Harry – it is more relevant than you think!) So what is left? A man may come to accept his limitations versus other men, but against women, he must still feel he has a chance to be alpha. Conditioning tells him that if he succumbs on this level then he is a momma’s boy not only to other men but to women as well.
Not asking for help is a passive-aggressive way to hold on to this remnant of alpha. I think the more insecure the man, the more reluctant to ask for help. So your willingness to understand men’s needs to not ask for help is valuable. It can be even more valuable if you see it in a different light as an opportunity to further boost his confidence and sense of alpha, a recognition that in his own quirky way he is trying to be the alpha male you want, rather than analyzing him for what is weak and wrong. I think this is misperception of men by women is something that can be a sore point for men.
I agree with you. I wasn't trying to put a negative spin on the behavior. For instance, I am very much "Don't ask. Don't tell" when it comes to wondering exactly how my H is able to get turned on for our scheduled encounters. I am very much content to simply go along for the ride.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Geesh has it really been a month since I updated my own thread?
Well lets see...what's new? Well I think we have found our way to a compromise (sexually) that works for both of us. We know now my H's issues with the whole whore/madonna thing....so if I were to sit back and wait on him to initiate sex full out...I'd have white hair before it would happen (ok..it'd fade to pink since I'm a red-head). If I were to be the only one initiating all the time....as we all know, I'd go nuts too, out of frustration and resentment from things being so one-sided. I posted on another thread (forget which one now) something that I've been trying....and it really seems to be a way we are able to work around this.
What I have been doing is approaching my H (oh about once a week, because he feels pressured if it's more often) and simply asking "Hey hon...think we can "get together" in the next couple of days?" Now if I approach him this way...I can pretty much guarantee we will have sex Sat or Sun. This approach does a few things for us.
#1 (most important) it gets him thinking about sex with me. #2 I don't feel like I am always having to be the sexual aggressor in our M because while it's true I am the one initially bringing it up, I'm not actually the one to start it. #3 He's allowed to pick the when/where as he wishes, there's no pressure that it has to be now, or tonight. It puts him in control and keeps spontenaiety from being completely thrown by the wayside. #4 He DOES initiate in his own fashion when he's ready.
I really feel this approach is working for us because it takes the majority of pressure off of both of us. I of course will still initiate and let my inner porn star out every now and then, so she's not supressed....and he's fine with that. However, if I want to feel that my H is initiating in some manner....then this is the approach I take with him, and I'm seeing results with it.
I'm also noticing that by utilizing this approach with him that I do receive more sexual contact with my H throughout the time we are around each other....so there's hope this may improve as well. Right now though, I'm operating as though this is what I have to deal with, I'm going on a "what if he doesn't ever improve, what if this is all he has to give?" approach....and learning to work with what we do have. I guess in some ways this goes back to accepting him as he is...because due to that acceptance I'm able to say "Ok, here's the situation, lets say he has no control over it....so how can I deal with it so that I minimize resentments within myself?" When I looked at it in that light...I came up with this approach. Surprisingly I really am good with this....I think because there truly does feel like there is some give and take from both sides...and that does help.
Aside from that...we're still talking when we can, still doing our date nights etc. So things are going pretty good for us.
We're also looking at purchasing a 5yr old dead-broke mare (meaning you couldn't make this horse buck you off), that would be perfect for taking our S on rides with us...and she would be a perfect learning horse for him as he gets bigger as well.
Glad to hear that you are still hanging in there GEL! Your H is a very lucky man. Out of curiosity, I know you mentioned that you are both learning to work with what you have. Though, do you feel that you are growing into something new together by following this path or is it really just refining the raw materials?
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. -- Socrates
I absolutely can see that we are growing into a new relationship...it's so much better than what it was. We of course have the raw materials that we started with but I can see where those raw materials have morphed as well...but honestly it has become a different R than we started with, and in my view that's a great thing. There was very little chance we'd have lasted if we stayed the way we were...we were still great friends, but it just didn't feel that there was any real depth to our R any longer. I know my own behaviors didn't help, but my H also really withdrew from me...there's no way a M can sustain itself the way we were going.
My H has told me repeatedly lately that I am so very much NOT what he was accustomed to in a woman...and he's seeing now that he likes what he has, that I'm who I tell him I am, and that I'm not changing...and he's now trusting that. He's also really starting to understand that "I" say exactly what I mean....so he's learning not to try to interperet what I say, looking for hidden meanings or traps.
