Jenny- maybe it was just "meant to be," to send you and your husband full circle but with a new appreciation for the incalculable value of having a homemaker at home (even while she has income opportunities or consultant work). Unfortunately, our society does not hold "homemakers,"or teachers for that matter, in the highest regard and it is WRONG. These two groups are charged with shaping and molding the minds of the next generation(s) and we've forgotten that. Your husband is simply reflecting the cultural norms but it sounds like it is not too late to correct his thinking.
I think it is great that H is helping out because those are memories he will not ever be able to replace. It will also continue to build his appreciation for the work you have to do while he's swimming with the sharks. Keep checking in, we could continue to use your "sage" advice around here. C2H
Committed2Him- "C2H" All Things (Back from Spain!)...18
I've taken a day to answer your post re your own situ.I've thought about it and even looked at some previous info from you(posts,emails) and what strikes me is the similarity in your concerns and issues over the past year.(issues,as with most of us, most likely present from childhood)
Alex,we all have "core" negative beliefs and fears that create a theme in our lives.Perhaps a fear of abandonment that isignited when a spouse breaches our trust, in any way.
You bring up "trust" repeatedly as an issue.Trust: as to whether or not H's changes are real;trust in that he really is sorry for his behavior and; in fact, trust in yourself and your own emotions.(BTW,did you ever read Peter Kramer's "Should You Leave?"...it points out the reality in most realtionships.)
Alex my H is like yours,in that he has yet to say the words that will make me feel he is truly sorry for the heartbreak he has caused both me and the children.However,I do believe he really does love me and is focused on our life as a couple,rather than wanting to run away.
However,I don't know whether or not I would have put all the time and effort I did in to meeting his needs ,while neglecting my own,if I han't been concerned for our children and my desire that they grow up in an "intact family".I must point out that prior to our marriage,my husband received alot of attention from me..so it was what he needed and expected.As other demands on my time, increased my focus on H's needs decreased.I became exhausted and "needy" myself and he couldn't/wouldn't handle it.
What I have come to believe, Alex, is that I have to meet my own needs and be more secure in my own identity.Anther person,regardless of who he/she is can never "make another completely happy".Happiness comes from within and I must admit I have not been doing a good job for myself, recently.
When you travel by plane,an announcement is made, that in case of danger, safety instructions are to "put the oxygen mask on yourself,first,before trying to save another".There is a message in that for all of us.
Alex,you confuse me.It's hard for me to get a clear picture of what is a very complex situation.I wonder if you do not feel the same.Perhaps, you ,along with me, should "zoom out" with our camera lense and try to see the total picture,rather than magnififying all the details,thus getting lost in them!
The bottom line, from what I can gather, is that you have beautiful children and a husband who ,despite his flaws,loves you and is still part of the relationship and family life.And you ,Alex,have so many abilities/talents: intelligence,wit, senstivity,loyalty and above all perseverance.
In time, you will hear the things your heart desires from your husband,but the message may not be in words..read the signals and the signs.Live in the moment as that is all any of us has..what is right and good about today. Jenny
My W is slipping back into the rut she was once in and she's pointing the finger at me. She had the EA which became a PA. Right now she feels I am harboring anger about discovering (quite by accident) that she was emailing OM recently because she was recuperating at home and she was "bored" (things had actually been going well for us for a pretty good period of time). I festered for about 5 days and finally share that finding OM's email address on our home computer was the reason I was distant or supressing anger. She said she was sorry, that it was just back and forth silly emails- I told her I accepted her explanation. She brought it up again a couple of days later because she was assuming I was angry when in fact we were both just plain exhausted from severe demands on our time.
She also feels that I am still angry about the affair altough I chose to get over it quite a while ago and I explained to her my reasoning.
She previously exhibited WAW and MLC tendencies. Through the ups and downs of separation and reconciliation, she came to the conclusion that I am the cause of her unhappiness, that I am controlling, emotionally abusive, angry and exhibit passive/agressive tendencies. Yuk!
I have read up on p/a, controlling behavior somewhat and I CAN see where I am partly responsible for a contributing to our relationship problems. What percentage (50, 20, 70%) I can't say because you put someone like me with someone like her and the combustion seems to ake a life of its own. Her dad was never affectionate, very gruff, mom was very erratic and emotional until she went through "the change," W is racked with insecurities although she is very smart, very multi-task oriented and I TELL her so. W got pregnant at 18, the guy was phsysically abusive and has never been a good dad to our son who she in turn overindulged (somewhat). Son (19) is content to underachieve which is a source of ongoing conflict between the 3 of us. She can't stand my parents but has to see them each day when she picks up the kids. She hates her job, has a lingering sprained ankle (last few days she's been hormoning) and we are trying to sell our house (By Owner no less). Oh and our 6 year old boy is starting to test and stretch his boundaries.
Whewww! Ok I DO have great compassion for her but I feel like I have to measure my words and have learned over the years that she takes much of whay I say the wrong way (I certainly can be faulted for HOW I say some things but I feel she is hypersensitive).
We had very little counseling as we pieced the marriage together because she did not want to dig up her feelings. I thought we were doing pretty much ok but now she's back in a rut.
With in the last few days I told her that I knew of a highly successful counseling program and wanted to sign us up for it (Retrovaille). She said she didn't want to go so I backed off. Today, as she displayed the kind of desperation I haven't seen for quite awhile, I told her we need to go. Basically she responded she didn't want to waste the money, that it would do no good, that I will never change.
Here's what my thinking is: Detatch, "act as if" everything is going to be fine, pursue setting up the Retro session, read more about passive/aggressive behavior, work on communicating feelings without being accusatory.
I'm beat, mentally and physically. I am, however, a Christian and I believe my God when He tells me "I will never give you more than you can handle." Ok, so lets see what happens.
Thanks again for your thoughts and input. Committed2Him
Committed2Him- "C2H" All Things (Back from Spain!)...18
Jenny, thank you once again for putting so much thought into your reply to me. I wanted to think about my reply too. And I have. So much of what you say is true, especially the part about the confusion.
I am a person who is often unable to make a huge decision for fear of screwing up; I am also incapable of setting appropriate boundaries, something which I learned to do better this past year. These have contributed to making my own confusion.
As for the childhood issues, again you are correct. I have a weak, clingy mother who was a tyrant and often emotionally abusive, who tried to divide and conquer her six children to gain their allegiance. I have never fulfiled my potential because I never believed in my potential; I admired my h enormously (like your h he is a scholar), and to a large extent lived under his light. I looked up to him, was proud of him, and hid my own light. I had a career, yes, but regarded it as a means to make a living in as agreeable a way possible. He was the star and I fed that.
You made me think about my assumptions: stability and security have always been very important to me and yet I have made choices that constantly put me in unstable and insecure situations -- I freelance for example, so my jobs and finances have never been high; my h, I believe, has never been wholly committed and yet I crave it (and perhaps that is the reason!). I grew up in a turmoil-ridden home and yet it was static at the same time, and it seems I live in one still. Whether I seek to create that, or whether I am drawn to whatever will ensure that, I don't know.
My confusion and lack of trust of late comes down to two things: a very real concern that this (fourth time of) reconciliation will be just like the others; but perhaps more deeply, it may be my own feelings of being trapped in an insecure situation with an uncommitted man who has wreaked havoc and turmoil in my life. I wish I could say I would never have expected him to behave as he did the past few years, but our first couple of years were very rocky, and he frequently wanted to discuss OR, or rather, the reasons why we shouldn't be together. My answser was usually either I don't wish to discuss it, I'm sick of discussing it, or if you feel that way, maybe we should separate. I was probably not listening to the appeals he was making, and perhaps I need to look more closely at what it is he was really driving at, if he even knows himself.
The identity thing is also very true. While these mlc, or affair-deranged spouses, are thrashing about in their own lost identity, it has created a situ where we too are rethinking our id. I have always looked to a man to make me feel whole, and yet the times when I have felt so there no man in my life, and conversely when there was a man I have never really felt secure. So at its root, is a lack of trust, that trusting someone will pull the rug out from under you. That was probably made much worse by relationships I forged with men in my younger days. Because of the background, it's possible, too, that I seek to create conflict. A Year By The Sea, which you recommended, filled me with such longing to be by myself. There is probably a need for me to secure my homelife (read control) in order to spread my wings; I may have difficulty focusing on both simultaneously. It's like needing to control the one, while allowing freedom and creativity in the other.
The trust thing is also where one places trust. Essentially, as a believer, I should place my trust in God and in some sort of vocation (divinely speaking), and not in a man, my h, to help me see who I am, and determine to myself whether I am worthy or not. I know these things; incorporating them into my heart is another matter. I think that may also be your source of anxiety at the moment. You're being pulled by son and h to be mother, wife, when what you really want is you (your work, your time, your life). This is a frustration, of course, because ALL those things comprise an id.
My h has also contributed to the insecurity, not only in this last three years of back and forth reconciliations, and his need for romantic highs and lows, but in the previous years too. The insecurity is deeply entrenched, and my instincts have in the past been to run. I know I cannot do this, however, because for one thing I have worked too hard to save what was left, and for the sake of my children I need to at least stick around to see if he is in earnest this time. During some of the reconciliations, they could be described as "good" times, he was engaged in behaviour not fit for marriage, such as chatline activity and meeting other women. I only recently discovered this -- how do I square that with my feelings on commitment? How do I know he is not going to be acting like that now, that he is once again "committed". And yet, do I discount his attempts because he's burned me once too often? That's where my conflict comes in. How can I discern if these are legitimate changes on his part? Being aware now of my inability to set boundaries and my enabling tendencies has me concerned that things will go back.
I started to learn who I was without him, especially this past painful year, and now I need to re-learn who I am with him, or whether I can be who I am with him. He always showed contempt for my faith, and before I just ignored it. I'm not prepared to do that anymore.
I would also like to be able to have honest conversations with him about this stuff. We have tried a bit, but maybe we need to approach it more scientifically, like set aside a time every week to air this stuff. I did find letters he's written ow, which he always maintained was an EA, telling her he'd never felt like this before, he told me he was in love with her, she was his soulmate, and so on. I've not heard anything from him, either saying how childish it was, or that he's learned that love is made of much deeper stuff, or that he is glad I didn't give up on him; yes, maybe it's silly for me to need to hear that, but it would go along way to erasing some of the tape in my own head. In short, I think we are stuck still in a non-communicative rut.
I am now reading After The Affair, which has been really helpful understanding how he has felt (though it was an EA it was intense), and also shown me that what I have felt and experienced is normal. It is also very comprehensive on the rebuilding process. It's a book I would recommend to everyone on this particular forum.
As for you Jenny, I think you are a deeply committed person, to whatever thing you have chosen to commit to. Our h's, being intellectuals, (egg-heads really) are so caught up in theoretical stuff that the concrete often eludes them. They are unable to empathise until they actually go through it themselves. Perhaps, it is time to enlist h's help with your son, or more, let him take full control of it. He might start to see what you have been dealing with, and he might also forge a stronger bond with his son, which your son can only benefit from. Kids also have huge antenna, and this marital conflict has them acting out in unusual ways, and moreover, at unusual times (like after the fact, when it's safe to do so). Like me, you have an active mind, and you need more of an outlet than your kids and home and h. You need to get you back; can you get the most out of your leave of absence from work, by taking up a new hobby? I hear watercolour painting is most relaxing. I've been considering it myself....if I can ever get the time.
[This message has been edited by AlexN (edited 05-10-2001).]
I can relate to the schoolwork issue. I changed my hours to 6:30 to 3:30 so I can help middle son with homework. All gades are up form C's to B's except math which went from D to C. I use positive hypnotic suggestions. Tell him he is good at math aand he has stopped fighting. He lets me check his math. But says "I won't change the answer". But he does.
I believe my H is so full of resentments he can't see anything good I do. He's always suggesting that I am abusive.
Well, it's a difficult journey. I have to believe H stays for more reasons than finances.
The homemaker role has been so devalued, I didn't really understand what women that didn't work did. It's so hard -- children require so much time. But it's well worth it.
Hi Jenny, I've read the first page of your replies and will continue reading the rest later.
Alotta refered me to your post a little while back and I am appreciative to her for that.
My situation sounds very similar to yours except I started to get myself back then the bomb dropped. Also, I have done OR's but the last few have been controlled and productive, imo. Done quite a few 180s.
In one of your replies you said your husband "came home". I do not feel mine was ever home in the 13 years of marriage. When he says he never felt connected emotionally, I believe that to be true. I believe his past has disabled him from letting anyone get close to him. Not going into detail, I believe he suffers from post traumatic stress. He is 46 and might be in a MLC but the way he is now isn't foreign to how he was in the past. I changed - and see through the sugar coating now- and he can not deny it anymore.
I don't pursue him, nor plead nor beg. I am confident and strong. We joke and get along great on an outcore level - the place of his choice. There is sex but no intimacy. Sex does not make him connect emotionally. He pretty much said that. If it were not for the kids (7,11,12) I don't know if I love him enough to stay married. (I don't know if we ever would have married - I was pregnant, so we married. I'll never know if he truly wanted marriage or not). I think the only way he will decide whether or not to let me into his heart is if I leave him. That might jolt him. I'm not ready for that gamble yet but am loosing faith. There is no affair I know of unless you consider work as the OW. It's through his work he finds spirituality and life...not with me. Never has been spiritual with me. I doubt it ever will be with me. He has shown a few good signs but I feel he is leading me to the door - away from him. He wants me to leave so he does not look like the bad guy. I truly believe this and he already said something to the effect...since he was married before, to be divorced twice would make him look like there was someothing wrong with him. He did say something to this effect.
He loves his kids and has been more involed but I believe he lives a parallel existence to them too.
I don't want to be a martyr and live in a marriage that isn't, but will remain in limbo for now. I don't want my kids to suffer and repeat our style of marriage.
Thank you for any input you may have.
-K
This is an edit in...things are different, life is good and I am further along than I was when I wrote this.
[This message has been edited by Wintergirl (edited 05-22-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Wintergirl (edited 06-01-2001).]
Folks, Hi! Do you remember me? I've been swamped between the work and the family, and haven't posted for months. But, I had a few minutes of quiet time this weekend so I thought I'd check out this update.
Good to hear that you all are still hanging in there. Me too. We have more good days than bad, I am happy to report. JW, Wow! It's been a long time. My h has yet to apologize. I doubt he ever will. But we do talk about what happened, and he listens pretty well to my fears and worries. Talking them out seems to help them dissipate more readily.
I did want to add that when we started putting the marriage back together, the daughter starting falling apart. She was acting out her dad's behavior. She is still seeing a psychiatrist for her little trip to the twilight zone, but doing very well. She is still being treated for depression and social anxiety disorder, but doing much better. Mostly I am worried about her grades as they are not much better and she is looking at college in the fall of 2002. I will be happy when she finds herself finally and settles into being OK with herself. She has become much more outgoing in the past year.
Lay offs are coming at my job. I may get the axe as well, but I figure after my 2 years in hell and surviving what we've been through, umemployment is just another bump in the road, huh?
Well, I must run and finish the laundry. I hear my wm has stopped spinning. Need to go put the next load in, and start on the BR. Yippee, toilets!!! My favorite thing to do....(NOT!)
GG,it's nice to hear from you.You sound terrific and "on top of things".I know the pain and difficulty our children can bring to our lives.I've been stuggling with my own 15 yr old's problems and it has knocked me flat.
Surviving the marital crisis took a considerable amount of my energy and it impacted my oldest son in a negative way. I'm glad to hear that your daughter is OK and you are providing her with the tx and support she needs. You are a great Mom.
Alex and C2H...I apologize for not responding in a timely fashion.We have been dealing w son's issues and even are looking at boarding schools.It's a busy and heartbreaking time for us.
quote:Originally posted by 17baker445: Surviving the marital crisis took a considerable amount of my energy and it impacted my oldest son in a negative way.
Jenny, I'm sorry to hear about your son. My main fear is what it's doing to the kids. Any suggestions on how to handle things differently, if you could? I know you probably are too consumed right now but if you have a chance, it would be great to hear.
Jen- W and I are doing well now and I continue to apply DB techniques in order to avoid falling into the "old patterns" when we experience some bumps in the road.
Sorry to hear about you issues with your 15y/o. While W and I went through our challenges, my step-son pretty much took advantage of the situation and "skated" through high school. He never was a scholar although he is very bright. He's paying a price now because we are having him leave the house (now a 19 y/o) because he doesn't want to apply himself in school and he lost one good part time-job with our city.
My 19 y/o has witnessed our difficulties over the lats couple of years and I have recently shared with him that LIFE IS HARD but that is no excuse to quit in the face of obsticles. I shared that many men (and some wome) would have quit on their spouses if they had to endure what i did.
Focus on your boy and be united in your decisions pertaining to his future. Blessings. C2H
Committed2Him- "C2H" All Things (Back from Spain!)...18
